7D Re: 7D Mark II
- Thread starter ectobuilder
- Start date
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
Because they've said so. Of course, it might not be, which is why I alluded to not being sure.
I know you are obsessed with DR in your video footage, but I'm pretty sure the industry would go nuts for a DSLR that recorded video with the IQ of a C100. The 5Dm3 and C100, like most Canon sensors, max out around 12 stops, but that hasn't stopped the 5D from being considered a powerhouse in photography. I would think still photographers would care more about DR than we do, yet I see more 5D shooters than Nikon despite Nikon's clear advantage on paper.
Clean up the moire and aliasing, deliver a solid sharp 1080 image that isn't mushy like the 5D, and I just might get one.
ectobuilder
Veteran
I too am curious about how the Dual Pixel AF is being implemented on the 7D Mark II, but I can't help but notice the lack of touch screen. This is the same missing element that really hampered the Sony A6000. Why have such good focusing capabilities but slow down the way the user interacts with it?
ectobuilder
Veteran
Chuck Westfall from Canon must have been hallucinating when he said video is very important to Canon as he was talking about the 7D Mark II....
@ 2:36
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U07tgCXmJn4#t=137
@ 2:36
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U07tgCXmJn4#t=137
cpreston
Veteran
I think we can be pretty much assured that the 7Dii will not touch the IQ of the cinema cameras. The cinema cameras use an entirely different image processing method. They could pull off the IQ of the S35 mode in the 1DC, though. It's pretty darn close to a real 1080p and it doesn't have moire or aliasing. The 7Dii certainly has the processing power. All that said, Canon's example videos make me think they aren't using the 1DC's S35 encoding scheme. I am really interested in the clean 1080p HDMI out, though.
While high DR and a high bit rate can make a shooters life easier as it means they don't have to be as concerned about nailing exposure, I rarely can think of a time when it is absolutely needed. Most color correction involves increasing contrast, not decreasing it. Also, most of the time it seems that DP's decrease the contrast in camera and then increase the contrast in lighting in order to compensate rather than just setting the camera to the contrast that matches the look they want. This is just an observation. I don't notice photographers harping on DR as much as videographers. Sure, there are times when sunlight can be a real issue, but it seems that photographers are more interested in just getting the camera to capture the image that they want rather than trying to get it to capture a low contrast image like some videographers prefer.
While high DR and a high bit rate can make a shooters life easier as it means they don't have to be as concerned about nailing exposure, I rarely can think of a time when it is absolutely needed. Most color correction involves increasing contrast, not decreasing it. Also, most of the time it seems that DP's decrease the contrast in camera and then increase the contrast in lighting in order to compensate rather than just setting the camera to the contrast that matches the look they want. This is just an observation. I don't notice photographers harping on DR as much as videographers. Sure, there are times when sunlight can be a real issue, but it seems that photographers are more interested in just getting the camera to capture the image that they want rather than trying to get it to capture a low contrast image like some videographers prefer.
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
Hmm. Are they really so fundamentally different? As I understand it (and I could be mistaken), the image processing is different in as much as it isn't a large megapixel DSLR sensor that needs to be resampled, and the Digic DV chip is designed from the bottom-up for video processing. I don't think that prohibits them from having similar IQ.
I mean, is the 1DC so different from the C100 in IQ? My opinion is that they go head to head, with some reviews actually preferring the IQ of the 1DC. I've never shot with one first hand, so I'm going by what I'm reading elsewhere.
Ebrahim Saadawi
Carbonite Member
Believe it or not, the 1DC in S35 mode with C Log looks better than the C300 image to my eye, or at least very very similar. It's one of the nicest images I've ever seen come out of any video camera at any price, it's just perfect. Detail is similar to 4K scaled down to 1080p with no trace of digital sharpening artefacts, just pure organic detail, and C Log removes any trace of video-ness left and is pretty damn pushable in grading, and the colours are way way ahead of GH4s A7s and all that stuff and low light is not far behind even the newest A7s, and it's using an APS-C area. Why Canon can't give us that image wonderfull image with the 7D mk II is beyond me, it would dominate the indie video market for years to come.
The 1Dc shows they can. Perhaps the 7D will be better than we expect.
The 1Dc shows they can. Perhaps the 7D will be better than we expect.
Ebrahim Saadawi
Carbonite Member
Finally a proper test!
http://vimeo.com/m/106524090
So here we go:
-The 7D mk II solves the aliasing and moire issues just like the 5D mk III. No line skipping.
-Low light performance is improved by 1.5 to 2 stops from the 70D, approaching 5D mk III level,
-Resolution is not improved over the 5D mk III level, which was a bit disappointing on the 5D and sure is disappointing here.
All in all, this seems like a 5D mk III twin in terms of the image, for much less money. lacking full frame yet adding 60p, DPAF, distortion correction, etc
http://vimeo.com/m/106524090
So here we go:
-The 7D mk II solves the aliasing and moire issues just like the 5D mk III. No line skipping.
-Low light performance is improved by 1.5 to 2 stops from the 70D, approaching 5D mk III level,
-Resolution is not improved over the 5D mk III level, which was a bit disappointing on the 5D and sure is disappointing here.
All in all, this seems like a 5D mk III twin in terms of the image, for much less money. lacking full frame yet adding 60p, DPAF, distortion correction, etc
cpreston
Veteran
My guess, and this is a guess, on the Canon DSLR's is that they take a 1080p resolution pixel sampling from the sensor and debayer this image and compress it to H.264. This is what leads to the relatively poor resolution but also results in a 1080p size video file. This is definitely what is happening with the 1DC at 4K, accept the 4K is just compressed to MJPEG. The S35 on the 1DC is doing something different entirely and I don't dare to guess what is going on there. Whatever it is, it is fairly processor intensive, but the 7D should be able to pull it off with a slight change based on the sensor size. This is assuming that the sensor can be read fast enough at full resolution.
Darktide Media
Active member
I really find it amazing all the hating on this camera, its amazing if you look at it. As a sports shooter this is dream camera for the price and my pre order is in. Cant wait to see what ML can do with camera, it has HDMI out which may be something they can use throw 4K raw out of the camera to something like a Shogun. might be able to do RAW at 4K with dual Digic 6 inside. So far the images are looking fine to me from a photo stand point. All those who are complaining about the video I dont know why...we know ML will hack it and give it RAW.
cpreston
Veteran
I really, really doubt that they can pull 4K out of the HDMI on a 7Dii. That would require an entirely different encoder. Also, there is no way that it could save 4K Raw to the standard compact flash cards that it uses. It's just not that fast. Also, I wouldn't get my hopes up that the ML team cracks the 7dii anytime soon. It took them forever on the original 7D and the 7Dii has new processors.
IndyFilmPhreak2013
Carbonite Member
Gotta love all the speculation here about things that nobody yet knows. This is worse than a rumors site.
If you are really interested, then disregard everything in this thread and wait and see - because that's the only way you'll know anything.
If you are really interested, then disregard everything in this thread and wait and see - because that's the only way you'll know anything.
ectobuilder
Veteran
The first sign to look out for to indicate that Canon will change course and become more of a disruptor/innovator (such as Sony) would be the layoffs. Sony didn't start to change course until the CEO decided to do so, and thus triggered massive restructuring and therefore layoffs.
When Sony is bringing out disruptive and cannibalistic cameras such as the A5100, RX100 MKIII, A7S and even the FS7, this has to mean less profit in at least the short term since it cannibalizes their own products (think PMW-F3 sales going into the A7S, $15 into $2500). Even the F5's 4K upgrade for $999 is cannibalistic as well since the F3's upgrade to 444 was like $3500. So layoffs and paycuts are inevitable. We just have to wait until Canon decides to do the same to their own organization before we start seeing high end technology at low end prices.
Democratization of technology for the masses has negative profit implications. But this is how it should have been in the first place!
When Sony is bringing out disruptive and cannibalistic cameras such as the A5100, RX100 MKIII, A7S and even the FS7, this has to mean less profit in at least the short term since it cannibalizes their own products (think PMW-F3 sales going into the A7S, $15 into $2500). Even the F5's 4K upgrade for $999 is cannibalistic as well since the F3's upgrade to 444 was like $3500. So layoffs and paycuts are inevitable. We just have to wait until Canon decides to do the same to their own organization before we start seeing high end technology at low end prices.
Democratization of technology for the masses has negative profit implications. But this is how it should have been in the first place!
Samuel H
Major Contributor
That's a lot better than I expected. Not groundbreaking (I would still prefer the a5100 and a6000 over this clean but soft image) but at least a decent contender, which may be all Canon needs for it to be a success, given how many fans they got a few years back. As I wait for further tests, I'm already cooking my words, ready to eat them if it is in fact a new sensor (right now I'm leaning towards same sensor but new ADCs).
Sad, but seemingly accurate. Right now canon is cruising by because of their brand. The main stream public are still buying their rebels, etc. lower end cameras. That is where a lot of their revenue is coming from. But that can not last forever especially as more people are finding out that their cell phones are "good enough".
I predict within two years, we will see layoffs at canon if they don't start getting their act together.
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
The real question is: what guys from ML can pull out of it?
Don't hold your breath. The dual-chip design made the original 7D a really tough cookie to crack. Its a much more complicated camera to reverse engineer, and they only started making progress after years of hitting a brick wall. Back in the day, I remember having to point so many 7D shooters to the ML sticky thread because they kept asking why they don't have Magic Lantern when even the T2i had it! The 60D, T3i, heck even the 5Dm3 came out after the 7D yet got Magic Lantern running pretty quickly after release. Arguably, the 7D only got Magic Lantern towards the end of its life, as they only recently sorted it out but is now about to be replaced.
That being said, I'm hopeful that the ML team can apply what they know about the original 7D's dual chip design to help crack this one sooner, but then again... we're not just dealing with the dual chip thing, we're also dealing with an ENTIRELY NEW chipset (digic6) which has no documentation and needs to be reverse engineered from scratch. In short: I wouldn't hold my breath to see ML so soon.
You mean a sports shooter for stills? No one is arguing there. It will be a photographer's dream, that's for sure. Wildlife and Sports is what it is designed for, and it will rock at it. We're just expecting more from the video side of things after the original 7D was so iconic at it when it released.
We don't know that necessarily. See above.
I'm voting for new sensor. But I'm not impressed with what I'm seeing. Sure, it'll intercut well with a 5Dm3, but that means its use is limited as a B-cam to it. Otherwise, the 5D is a much more capable option with a full frame sensor and working ML RAW video, and there's plenty of other fish in the sea that will give you a better APS-C sized 1080 video for less money.
No c100 or 1D-c image IQ. Not even close. Nothing to see here, folks. Carry on. (sigh)
ectobuilder
Veteran
Canon is trying to add SKU's without hurting growth. This has created a negative impact on filmmakers. Sony on the other hand has added SKU's with the risk of hurting growth. However small companies like Blackmagic/ATOMOS are adding SKU's to benefit the art of storytelling and in doing so are experiencing growth.
See the difference here?
So many ways to skin a cat and Canon's way isn't quite working out for filmmakers right now.
Having said that, in terms of photography, the 7D Mark II can be viewed as cannibalizing the 1DX sales because it does have more superior autofocus, at least on paper.
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8string
Well-known member
An incremental change, when the market is changing radically. Might be a good upgrade camera for 7D folks. I don't see it taking market share from Sony or Panny though. And yep, the cell phone market is coming on strong. 4K in cell phones will allow for a lot of mistakes to be fixed. Including vertical filming (G!).