starcentral
Veteran
Thanks for the answer, I also took the time to go on their website and they do say 444 12-bit and 444 10-bit.
F3: Prores 4444 13 bit from F3 to SD Pix recoder now!
- Thread starter Tomas Riuka
- Start date
bill totolo
Veteran
Thanks Ned. Can anyone address the statement "Users have also been asking for timecode output and concerns have been voiced over sync between video and external sources.
Sound Devices has addressed both existing concerns as well as feature requests with this firmware update."
Has the synch issue been satisfactorily resolved?
Sound Devices has addressed both existing concerns as well as feature requests with this firmware update."
Has the synch issue been satisfactorily resolved?
LeavingTheCandy
Well-known member
Could anyone say if we mere mortals would derive much benefit from the 444 10-bit?
I see a VAST difference between 8 and 10 bit when grading.
I see a VAST difference between 8 and 10 bit when grading.
starcentral
Veteran
I will be going 10-bit using a HyperDeck Shuttle 2 towards the end of the month on a project and will be sure to do some thorough testing to compare grading it versus a year long of grading 8-bit which I've been doing.
For most projects and probably most people I honestly can't see more than 8-bit being needed, but I guess it would depend on how well you shot the original images and how much pushing you need to do in post.
8-bit SXS Before:
Grading After:
For most projects and probably most people I honestly can't see more than 8-bit being needed, but I guess it would depend on how well you shot the original images and how much pushing you need to do in post.
8-bit SXS Before:
Grading After:
bill totolo
Veteran
Dennis,
Take a shot of a blue sky, a white wall, or a flat grey surface and push it around in post and look closely at the gradients (when working in 8 bit).
you'll likely see banding that you won't in 10 bit.
Also, 10 bit will hold up better after being recompressed.
Take a shot of a blue sky, a white wall, or a flat grey surface and push it around in post and look closely at the gradients (when working in 8 bit).
you'll likely see banding that you won't in 10 bit.
Also, 10 bit will hold up better after being recompressed.
starcentral
Veteran
I don't doubt that 10-bit is a little more resistant to banding of gradients, but it really only is 4 times the amount of data quantization over 8-bit so I don't see it being a "vast" difference as say 12-bit over 8-bit which would be 16 times the amount of data.
Plus when its moving at 24 to 60 times per second some artifacts I see on a still frame of footage gets impossible to see when its moving. Anyway it's true it will depend on what you're shooting i.e.. flat surfaces, walls, sky, etc..
I'm looking forward to playing with it.
Plus when its moving at 24 to 60 times per second some artifacts I see on a still frame of footage gets impossible to see when its moving. Anyway it's true it will depend on what you're shooting i.e.. flat surfaces, walls, sky, etc..
I'm looking forward to playing with it.
Tomas Riuka
Well-known member
If you do it for web, then you can hardly notice the difference, try watching it on 50-60 inch quality plasma screen, projecting in theatre, everything gets exaggerated and then you can see every detail.
bill totolo
Veteran
BTW, Dennis, I learn a vast amount by reading your posts here, RedUser, and various other places. It's just a small point (to me, because I shoot for broadcast and on very limited occasions, projection) that I need as many bits as a camera will give me. This is one of the pleasures of shooting with these cameras as opposed to DSLRs. This is an advantage the RED shooters have enjoyed for years now.
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starcentral
Veteran
Thanks Bill, I am learning a lot myself in the last year. DVX is a great forum with great people and has been an invaluable resource for me to conduct my own research as well as validate some of my findings with others. I admit I enjoy the techie side as much as the creative. 
Speaking of DSLR's I wanted to reply to Tomas's last post. A lot of the 8-bit footage from my F3 screened at film festivals last year in theatres on very large screens. Amongst it were other projects shot on 5D, 7D and even 35mm film and I have to say that despite the vast majority of it originating in an 8-bit format the quality was very high and many pieces had a great "film look" to them. To be honest for me this was actually somewhat disheartening because I spent a small fortune on the F3 and here were rival cameras holding up to the big screen for mere fractions of the price!
On paper more is always better, but in real world there are differences that can sometimes make all things equal.
Speaking of DSLR's I wanted to reply to Tomas's last post. A lot of the 8-bit footage from my F3 screened at film festivals last year in theatres on very large screens. Amongst it were other projects shot on 5D, 7D and even 35mm film and I have to say that despite the vast majority of it originating in an 8-bit format the quality was very high and many pieces had a great "film look" to them. To be honest for me this was actually somewhat disheartening because I spent a small fortune on the F3 and here were rival cameras holding up to the big screen for mere fractions of the price!
On paper more is always better, but in real world there are differences that can sometimes make all things equal.
Tata Steva
Well-known member
Thanks Bill, I am learning a lot myself in the last year. DVX is a great forum with great people and has been an invaluable resource for me to conduct my own research as well as validate some of my findings with others. I admit I enjoy the techie side as much as the creative.
Speaking of DSLR's I wanted to reply to Tomas's last post. A lot of the 8-bit footage from my F3 screened at film festivals last year in theatres on very large screens. Amongst it were other projects shot on 5D, 7D and even 35mm film and I have to say that despite the vast majority of it originating in an 8-bit format the quality was very high and many pieces had a great "film look" to them. To be honest for me this was actually somewhat disheartening because I spent a small fortune on the F3 and here were rival cameras holding up to the big screen for mere fractions of the price!
On paper more is always better, but in real world there are differences that can sometimes make all things equal.
...and that is why I am sticking with F3 for while longer, and not drooling over F5/55, Dragon or what ever... Actually kinda enjoying the "ride" on getting extremely expensive add ons for a great price from people who "dropped" their F3s...
starcentral
Veteran
Yes Tata, after buying RED, selling it, putting F3 for sale and declining two offers, getting ready to buy F5/F55, yadda yadda yadda, I may have finaly came to same conclusion to ride it out with F3. So far I am producing images with it that are satisfying.
:embarasse
:embarasse
Tata Steva
Well-known member
Yes, my friend... Spending too much time on forums can get anybody in to the "warp zone" where every piece of new hardware must be acquired and anything "from yesterday" must be dropped ASAP...
WestView Digital
Active member
B&H still sells both the 240 and the 240i but I'm having trouble figuring out what the difference is between the two. According to Sound Devices, the new 4444 firmware runs on both 240 and 240i. But the i version is like $600 more. What's the difference?
Andrew Stone
Veteran
The difference is in the screen. Extremely wide viewing angle, colour fidelity is way better and I believe the backlighting is better making it better in daylight viewing conditions.
LeavingTheCandy
Well-known member
Kudos to Pix for making a screen worth using. That Samurai screen is the worst-looking one known to man. It's a shame since other than that, the device is quite brilliant!
Regarding 10 bit 444... With the Sony F3 outputting 3G SDI to the Pix, I only see options for 10 bit 422 and 12 bit 4444. As someone else pointed out, their website says 10 bit OR 12 bit 444 support is available.
Am I getting larger 12 bit (padded) files in the 4444 mode? If so, is there a way to get straight 444 10 bit?
Thanks for your help guys, great forum.
Also, Pix240 is a beautiful piece of machinery.
Am I getting larger 12 bit (padded) files in the 4444 mode? If so, is there a way to get straight 444 10 bit?
Thanks for your help guys, great forum.
Also, Pix240 is a beautiful piece of machinery.
Pix screen better than Samurai? Of course. That's why Pix costs twice as much as Samurai. I love the Pix and consider it a top notch piece of gear and the recent upgrade shows SD's on-going commitment to the product. I have not sold my 240 in favor of the 240i but probably should.
The F3 outputs 10 bit 4:4:4 with the CBK-101 (aka S-Log) unlock. The Pix will record that 10 bit signal in a 12-bit ProRes 4444 container. If you want exactly what comes out of the camera, consider something like a Gemini which will record uncompressed 444 RGB. Files will certainly be considerably larger than than the 10 bit in 12 bit container ProRes 4444. You could also record straight to computer through capture card.
Either way, remember that visually you won't see much difference between ProRes HQ 422 and ProRes 4444 unless you are pulling keys or doing extensive grading for viewing on large cinema screen. It's good to know that we have it, but really wise to assess first what it is we need to deliver and then back into the most appropriate codec in which to shoot.
Ned
The F3 outputs 10 bit 4:4:4 with the CBK-101 (aka S-Log) unlock. The Pix will record that 10 bit signal in a 12-bit ProRes 4444 container. If you want exactly what comes out of the camera, consider something like a Gemini which will record uncompressed 444 RGB. Files will certainly be considerably larger than than the 10 bit in 12 bit container ProRes 4444. You could also record straight to computer through capture card.
Either way, remember that visually you won't see much difference between ProRes HQ 422 and ProRes 4444 unless you are pulling keys or doing extensive grading for viewing on large cinema screen. It's good to know that we have it, but really wise to assess first what it is we need to deliver and then back into the most appropriate codec in which to shoot.
Ned