F3: Prores 4444 13 bit from F3 to SD Pix recoder now!

[Grug]

10-bit 4:4:4 is possible within the ProRes spec. But I believe most applications use a 12-bit wrapper for it.

I've also been weighing up selling off my PIX240 to trade up to a 240i. It's a painful hit to take to get the same piece of gear, but from what I hear the IPS screen on the 240i really is worth it.

Since I only shoot my F3 in SLOG, I haven't really minded using the PIX240 as my onboard monitor, because without LUTs I can't really use the screen for anything more than composition anyway - I just get my exposure and colour temperature right and trust that everything will work out in post (which fortunately, it has so far). But a wider viewing angle and more accurate colour would make life a lot easier.

 

[Duke M.]

Either way, remember that visually you won't see much difference between ProRes HQ 422 and ProRes 4444 unless you are pulling keys or doing extensive grading for viewing on large cinema screen. It's good to know that we have it, but really wise to assess first what it is we need to deliver and then back into the most appropriate codec in which to shoot.

It's funny you should mention that Ned. I've had a couple of clients that, when I did simultanious recording in Samurai and SxS, just wanted the smaller files. In those instances the 'better' codec was just the back up. (It's really nice to have a back up though. Mr. Murphy tends to rear his head at the worst times.)

 

[bill totolo]

It's funny you should mention that Ned. I've had a couple of clients that, when I did simultanious recording in Samurai and SxS, just wanted the smaller files. In those instances the 'better' codec was just the back up. (It's really nice to have a back up though. Mr. Murphy tends to rear his head at the worst times.)

I've had this experience with my Ki-Pro, and it pains me to no end, but job no. 1 is to keep the client happy...

 

[yoclay]

So for anyone who has updated, now that a few days are under the belt, what are your observations? Has the update made a real difference in your output quality? Worth getting the RGB update and buying a pix if one doesn't already own one (compared to standard SLOG and a 422 recorder)? What was the final verdict on 60p capacity with the new update?

Pictures/tests showing the difference?

 

[Grug]

So for anyone who has updated, now that a few days are under the belt, what are your observations? Has the update made a real difference in your output quality? Worth getting the RGB update and buying a pix if one doesn't already own one (compared to standard SLOG and a 422 recorder)? What was the final verdict on 60p capacity with the new update?

Pictures/tests showing the difference?

- Differences between 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 will be pretty hard to spot unless you're doing greenscreen or heavy colour grading.
- 1080p60 is NOT possible, and will never be possible according to SD, the hardware isn't capable of it.

I'm also weighing up the option of getting the 4:4:4 upgrade now, I had no interest in it before - but with a 4:4:4 recorder suddenly in my possession, it sure would be nice to have the option. And having just been through some serious headaches applying a very colour-rich grade to a music I shot in SLOG 4:2:2 - I'm now wondering whether the extra colour resolution would have saved me the full 2 days of additional post work those problems required me to put in.

Plus being able to offer 4:4:4 recording does place the camera right up in the high-end of cameras, so it could possibly attract some additional gigs that it wouldn't otherwise.

 

[Peter G. Johnson]

I have noticed a distinct improvement in picture quality using the latest Pix update. When you plug in either SDI or HD-SDI 'A' port, the Pix indicates a 10bit signal. Without the CBK-RGB01 I can't honestly comment about how good the end result could be. I'm not interested in chroma keying, compositing (etc) but I'm wondering if the picture could be just that much better with RGB444 as opposed to the YCbCr422 output from the F3?

 

[Adamsenoj]

I'm also weighing up the option of getting the 4:4:4 upgrade now, I had no interest in it before - but with a 4:4:4 recorder suddenly in my possession, it sure would be nice to have the option. And having just been through some serious headaches applying a very colour-rich grade to a music I shot in SLOG 4:2:2 - I'm now wondering whether the extra colour resolution would have saved me the full 2 days of additional post work those problems required me to put in.

I'm curious to what serious headaches that could have been? Could you elaborate?

Thanks.

 

[Grug]

I'm curious to what serious headaches that could have been? Could you elaborate?

Thanks.

Mostly it was FCP6 spitting the dummy on rendering and turning the clips I was rendering blue (I assume due to processing more filters than it liked), but the other main issue was colour noise becoming overly apparent as the grade got pushed further and further, which then forced me to add noise reduction filters (and all the joys they entail).

For reference, all of the footage was 10-bit ProRes HQ SLOG.

I actually just posted the finished video in the 'footage' subforum if you want to take a look at it - I get the feeling it possibly represents pretty much the furthest you can push 10-bit 4:2:2 SLOGged F3 footage in terms of colour saturation.

 

[Adamsenoj]

Mostly it was FCP6 spitting the dummy on rendering and turning the clips I was rendering blue (I assume due to processing more filters than it liked), but the other main issue was colour noise becoming overly apparent as the grade got pushed further and further, which then forced me to add noise reduction filters (and all the joys they entail).

For reference, all of the footage was 10-bit ProRes HQ SLOG.

I actually just posted the finished video in the 'footage' subforum if you want to take a look at it - I get the feeling it possibly represents pretty much the furthest you can push 10-bit 4:2:2 SLOGged F3 footage in terms of colour saturation.

Well, so it was probably FCP. Try Resolve. With Resolve free for 1080p no reason to put up with grading on a NLE.

But looking at your footage, it looks great! I see nothing wrong with it. The reason I asked is because I have never had a problem pushing 10 bit 4:2:2 footage in Resolve, so I was wondering what could possibly go wrong with 4:4:4 in grading.

 

[starcentral]

...but I'm wondering if the picture could be just that much better with RGB444 as opposed to the YCbCr422 output from the F3?

This is a great question.

Personally I'm not sure how much better the images are using the RGB444 (as I have no experience with) but I've been told by someone I know using the F3 for high-end commercial work that the F3 with RGB has additional qualities over the 10-bit HD-SDI 422 output. How obvious, or only obvious if compared side by side, or in grading? I'm not sure.

Something different about the F3 when talking RGB and comparing it to other cameras like RED is that it is de-bayered in-camera instead of during the post process. Can we debayer ourselves in post better than Sony's in-camera computer? Yes & no. But perhaps we should be thanking Sony for saving our computer CPU for "real" stuff like color grading and editing.

By the way the C500 is capable of both RAW and 12-bit RGB444 (2k only) output so it is another example of a camera also providing de-bayered sensor data in RGB for external recording. I'm sure this mode exists for a reason so I have to believe there are subtle quality differences working in RGB as opposed to converted RGB -> YCbCr.

Regarding color space, is it "really" 444 to begin with? Not really technically, so I'm not sure how much 444 over 422 would really contribute to the overall picture quality.