PC/Windows NLE Mess - Jan - what can be done?

[icicle22]

With all due respect, I disagree 100%. They got FCP on board 20 months ago. They had Avid supposedly in place already. And they have Canopus. That sounds like a lot of pavement pounding to me.

If the NLE companies have not properly implemented support, point the finger at them. If Avid has MXF support and can capture 1080/24p on its higher-end systems but not on Express Pro, how can you blame Panasonic for that?

The bottom line is that FCP really supports the DVCPRO codec "now" because it implemented it earlier for the Varicam support. Why did they have Varicam support and PC apps didn't? Simple....the same reason you hear FCP being used frequently in big production houses as a replacement for AVID. For some reason it has caught on and been accepted as a "higher level" editor than most of the PC apps. I have personally never heard of motion pictures being cut with Premiere, Vegas or Canopus. AVID yes......so they have some support at least. But Apple knew if they incorporated DVCPRO support in FCP they had a good marker share of Varicam users who would use it. Had Adobe added it 20 months ago I doubt it would have made a big splash. Higher end pros just don't use these PC apps much. Now that the HVX has changed the playing field there is a legitimate reason for these apps to build support. But they are starting very late.

 

[stephenvv]

Okay, time for a reality check please:

Barry:

While the facts of your post are correct, I think you are missing the point here. I don't think the HDV vs DVCPro-HD supprt issue is a valid comparison argument. Panasonic has gone out of their way to point out that DVCPro-HD is a well established codec with industry support as selling point of the HVX200.

Unlike the HDV formats, NLE companies have not needed the HVX in-house to develop for. There are other DVCPro-HD cameras. So basing your arguments on time to release support vs. release date of the camera is not a valid from my view.

The issue here is DVCPro-HD support in the marketplace at large. That is something that should deeply interest Panasonic now that they are selling a camera in the prosumer price-range.

 

[Barry_Green]

Nor is DVCPro-HD is not bleeding edge. It's not new - been around for years.

Yes, and editing support has been available for 20 MONTHS. FCP HD was first introduced 20 months ago! Just because PC vendors haven't jumped on the same bandwagon as fervently, it's hard to see how you'd go saying Panasonic has been dragging their feet.

Seriously -- they lined up the two biggest editors out there, the ones that are used in the most production companies, Avid & Apple. They got them both to commit, and got them to develop their editors. If Avid didn't do it quite to everyone's standards, how do you blame Panasonic for that? And on top of that, Canopus came along too.

Has anyone here even TRIED Edius Broadcast? The demo looked pretty impressive. Maybe it's worthwhile to look into.

 

[esperman]

It's in the best interest of all parties concerned (Panasonic, NLE companies, users) to make this happen. So why is it not? (In Vegas's case, the Sony conspiracy, but it Sony really going to sacrifice Vegas installed based to protect camera sales?).

your kidding here...right?

 

[Jarred Land]

whatever you say stephenv.. your so far off your rocker you dont even know it. Microsoft provides the tools, just like Panasonic does... Panasonic will give all those tools to whoever wants to license the codec. Microsoft does not however go into Adobe and sit down and write their software for them, so stop requesting Panasonic should.

You're the one confusing the issue. I did not say "HDV" = I said HD. HD is the umbrella format, HDV flavors of the codec used. HD is no longer bleeding edge. Some HDV codec implementations (e.g. JVC 24p and Canon 24F are bleeding edge). 1080i HDV is not bleeding edge. Nor is DVCPro-HD is not bleeding edge. It's not new - been around for years.

well being a developer im surprised you really have no clue what your talking about.. DVCpro-HD at 1080 in a MXF wrapper on a P2 card is not new? please. And please show me who has used 720 24pN before.. please please double please.

And while you are at it.. if your not including HDV in your "all NLE's edit HD".. please list to me those consumer NLE's that edit true uncompressed HD please. Im begging.

 

[stephenvv]

With all due respect, I disagree 100%. They got FCP on board 20 months ago. They had Avid supposedly in place already. And they have Canopus. That sounds like a lot of pavement pounding to me.

If the NLE companies have not properly implemented support, point the finger at them. If Avid has MXF support and can capture 1080/24p on its higher-end systems but not on Express Pro, how can you blame Panasonic for that?

That's my argument, actually. The DVCPro-HD codec existed long before the HVX was announced. AFAIK, very little has happened since NAB as far as new support for the DVCPro-HD codec.

 

[Barry_Green]

OK. I know this is a tad off-topic but how much performance are you going to get with FCP on a mac-mini? Seeing as I have a MAC-MINI with 512MB RAM and a copy of Final Cut Express HD here at my office. I am entitiled to a $499 updgrade to Pro version and for $100 more 1 GIG of Ram. What realistically can I expect from this? (using external fast USB2 drives and firewire for camera)

According to the Apple website, you should be able to get realtime performace out of a 1GHz G4 and 1GB of RAM. I've seen it run on a 1.33GHz G4 powerbook. The mini is a 1.42Ghz G4. So it should meet the minimum system requirements.

And, I'm not necessarily looking to move all the way over; I'm really hoping it can be a stopgap measure until Vegas announces support.

Also....Barry....can you try and get a final answer to this question. Does the HVX output to HD monitor when connected to Firewire? Someone has to have a real answer here soon. If you hook the firewire out of the MAC from FCP to the hvx and scrub the timeline or play from the timeline do we get to see a picture on the outputs of the HVX?

I have neither a production model nor a Mac. Maybe spinflight or Kaku can answer this one for us?

 

[dregenthal]

You're the one confusing the issue. I did not say "HDV" = I said HD. HD is the umbrella format, HDV flavors of the codec used. HD is no longer bleeding edge. Some HDV codec implementations (e.g. JVC 24p and Canon 24F are bleeding edge). 1080i HDV is not bleeding edge. Nor is DVCPro-HD is not bleeding edge. It's not new - been around for years.

24F is "bleeding edge?" . . . "I sense a ripple in the force Luke" <g>.

Hmmm, well certainly DVC-PRO has been around a while -- it's just that, until a week ago, most of us couldn't afford to buy a camera that used it, no?

I was a little slow waking up to the fact that this new opportunity was going to require additional investments into other gear & software . . . but the way I figure it is, "in for a penny, in for a pound" otherwise I suppose I can just go on shooting things that end up on mini-dv (tape).

Either way, and while I may not enjoy the wait, I'm not yet prepared to blame Panasonic because SM hasn't produced "HVX Rack" yet either . . .

 

[smelni]

Jarred - i am in the software industry and I have to respectfully disagree with you - Stephen is not off his rocker (at least about microsoft).

They do come into my company nearly every week offering code snippets, free classes, seminars etc - why? to make us use their product to make our clients use their products. THey give us things for free to make their products more attractive.

Panny could give the NLEs help, or the codex license free (or something) to have helped this situation.

I am not saying it would have made a difference - or perhaps they did try to do this. It just feels that something is missing in this mix - like maybe a statement from panny.

 

[Barry_Green]

Dare I say it... though certainly a lot of folks here care a lot about the HVX... I'm not sure that it really makes a dent in market share?

Frankly, that's the question that I think they're wrestling with. I know that a certain company I shall not name has been most disappointed with sales of their HDV software product, so I can see there being hesitancy to develop for yet another new product.

However, for Vegas to not leap on it is surprising. I am certain that they enjoyed a significant expansion in their market base because of their unparalleled 24P integration and support of the DVX. I suspect Canopus could be positioning themselves for similar market expansion with their currently-unparalleled MXF support.

Anyone know anything about number of anticipated HVX sales vs., say, HDV cams?

Manufacturers don't release those statistics, unless to lie blatantly to make people think they're selling more than they actually are. I however will go out on a limb and predict that during 2006, Panasonic will sell more HVX's than Sony will sell Z1's, JVC will sell HD100's, and Canon will sell XLH1's combined.

But that's just a guess.

 

[stephenvv]

whatever you say stephenv.. your so far off your rocker you dont even know it.

that's uncalled for.

Microsoft provides the tools, just like Panasonic does... Panasonic will give all those tools to whoever wants to license the codec. Microsoft does not however go into Adobe and sit down and write their software for them, so stop requesting Panasonic should.

Microsoft supplies enormous development resources to Adobe, including programming to major ISV's - look it up or visit Adobe (though you will need a bunch of NDAs signed to see it). Adobe does the same with their PDF partners. It's a fact of technology.

DVCpro-HD at 1080 in a MXF wrapper on a P2 card is not new? please.

MXF wrapper is not that new. P2 cams with MXF wrappers have been shipping for awhile.

And while you are at it.. if your not including HDV in your "all NLE's edit HD".. please list to me those consumer NLE's that edit true uncompressed HD please. Im begging.

I never said uncompressed HD. But last time I checked, Apple, Microsoft, Sony, Pinnacle and Ulead all had consumer HD NLE (limited of course) but my point is that HD is not bleeding edge anymore.

 

[smelni]

24F is "bleeding edge?" . . . "I sense a ripple in the force Luke" <g>.

Hmmm, well certainly DVC-PRO has been around a while -- it's just that, until a week ago, most of us couldn't afford to buy a camera that used it, no?

I was a little slow waking up to the fact that this new opportunity was going to require additional investments into other gear & software . . . but the way I figure it is, "in for a penny, in for a pound" otherwise I suppose I can just go on shooting things that end up on mini-dv (tape).

Either way, and while I may not enjoy the wait, I'm not yet prepared to blame Panasonic because SM hasn't produced "HVX Rack" yet either . . .

True about SM - BUT if panny wanted them to have it they have the resources to help them - and then we would all have a solution for this problem.

Its a perfect example for how panny could have solved this problem for very low cost.

 

[Barry_Green]

I am telling you and it is absolutely a fact (I used to work full-time in IT and still do part-time). Microsoft has an enormous developer network, platform SDKs, alpha, beta, CTP programs, validation labs and literally hundreds of millions of dollars insuring companies can develop software for XP. With Microsoft it is at least 50% (more for big developers).

I can tell you as having been a software developer that yes, Microsoft and Apple do provide extensive SDK's. And yes, they do charge money for them. And no, there's no way that they'd take 50% responsibility for our software engineering! That's preposterous. We would do 95 to 98%, and Microsoft or Apple tech assistance would be there to help with the integration when necessary. They would provide a lot of documentation, yes. But taking on half the responsibility for the whole project? Maybe things have changed, but it sure wasn't that way when I was programming.

Panasonic has an SDK and they do make it available, and they do apparently charge. And yes, people do reverse-engineer and get around ever paying them a dime.

 

[icicle22]

Thanks Barry. I too would be using the Mac-mini as a stop -gap. However with no expansion slots and support for only one monitor where would you view your video? Ideally on an external monitor. But if you had to you could view it on your MAC monitor...but with so little real estate it would be hard and colors could be innaccurate.

Can anyone confirm that Final Cut does indeed streem HD out the firewire ports when scrubbibg or playing? Not specifically to the HVX but to the PANA DVCPRO Deck?? (I don't know the model number off-hand)

 

[Barry_Green]

Unlike the HDV formats, NLE companies have not needed the HVX in-house to develop for.

Simply not true. Have you been talking to the NLE manufacturers? I have. The HVX does things no DVCPRO-HD camera has done before.

Prior to the HVX you had exactly two things: 1080/60i, and 720/60p with flags. That's it. The HVX does things the other cameras don't dream of. 1080/24p? Never been done before on a desktop or in DVCPRO-HD. 720p "native mode" in 11 different frame rates? Hasn't been done before. Absolutely positively yes they needed the HVX to test and develop. There's way, way more to supporting this camera than just the codec!

So basing your arguments on time to release support vs. release date of the camera is not a valid from my view.

Then we shall have to agree to disagree, because I reiterate: the HVX has better support than any other product like this has ever had at introduction, and absolutely positively there were new things being developed that have ever been done before and that did take them time to figure out and time to implement, and it took having a functional model before they could finalize and commit.

The issue here is DVCPro-HD support in the marketplace at large. That is something that should deeply interest Panasonic now that they are selling a camera in the prosumer price-range.

Absolutely agreed. I further agree that the PC choices are completely unacceptable at the moment. Ain't disputin' that at all, my friend. I'm just disagreeing over the concept that a) there's no support at all, or b) that Panasonic hasn't been taking extraordinary efforts to line up support before launch, because they most definitely did.

 

[tak1108]

Apple has a deal on refurbished 15" powerbooks 1.5ghz. $1499

Or mac mini for $439, But you need to upgrade the RAM.

I have a 1.67ghz powerbook and a 1.5 ghz mac mini and both work great for editing with external Firewire drives. The mini does NOT run Motion though.

 

[ullanta]

Manufacturers don't release those statistics, unless to lie blatantly to make people think they're selling more than they actually are. I however will go out on a limb and predict that during 2006, Panasonic will sell more HVX's than Sony will sell Z1's, JVC will sell HD100's, and Canon will sell XLH1's combined.

But that's just a guess.

That's very interesting hear. I never would have suspected anything close to that! Let's hope it works out that way!

 

[icicle22]

. The mini does NOT run Motion though.

I know. It requires a higher end graphics card and the built-in MAC-mini won't cut it.

 

[Jarred Land]

that's uncalled for.

sorry john hudson took over my keyboard for a moment.

Microsoft supplies enormous development resources to Adobe, including programming to major ISV's - look it up or visit Adobe (though you will need a bunch of NDAs signed to see it). Adobe does the same with their PDF partners. It's a fact of technology.

that is my point.. Panasonic has a licensing division that more than welcomes interchange with companies interested in integration of the codec. this isn't about Panasonic saying "screw you" to all the NLEs.. this is the NLE's making a decision if it is worth the investment to include HVX support... which most have not so far.

MXF wrapper is not that new. P2 cams with MXF wrappers have been shipping for awhile.

and here you go again.. your dancing around the truth. NO other camera in HISTORY has shot HD on P2 with a wrapper. No other camera in history has shot HD on P2.. so what the hell are you saying isn't new? kinda like saying the new Ferrari isnt new because it still uses tires.

 

[Barry_Green]

That's my argument, actually. The DVCPro-HD codec existed long before the HVX was announced. AFAIK, very little has happened since NAB as far as new support for the DVCPro-HD codec.

Let me repeat this loud and clear then: the codec is the least of the problems! You've got a codec already -- Avid gives you a free one. If the codec was the problem, all our problems would already be solved!

The codec is not the issue, and frankly never has been. Canopus developed the codec under their own name years ago, reverse-engineering it from the SMPTE document and making their own DVCPRO-HD-compliant codec, called "Canopus HD". That's been around forever.

What has changed is MXF, and variable frame rates in native mode, and progressive scan in 1080 mode. That stuff is new, whether someone wants to recognize it or not. And that stuff does take time and effort to support.