PC/Windows NLE Mess - Jan - what can be done?

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At the risk of stepping in poo poo here, does not some (OK - the major)responsibility for NLE/PC issues here lie with (uh oh, here I go) Panasonic? They've (apparently) developed an incredible, revolutionary product that can't be edited on the standard equipment that so many of us have and use.

If it's not prepared to work with (for example) Sony to revamp/upgrade Vegas, does Panasonic not have the ability to develop its own NLE software to accompany/support this camera? Or is the inherent nature of the HVX/DVCProHD simply incompatible with a PC-based platform?

Is it too much of a stretched analogy to query what the result might be if Ford came out with a fantastic, revolutionary new vehicle (that everyone wanted) that could only be refuelled using methanol? Great car - lousy (or at least inconvenient) ease-of-use. Where would the blame lie in that scenario - with the non-methanol gas stations or with Ford?

I'm very high on the waiting list for the HVX - but realistically am I going to have to go out an purchase a G5 to replace (for editing purposes for this camera only) my three-month-old PC 3.2 GHz dual core running Vegas 6.0?

Seems to me to be a lot of questions that no one with any authority will or can or has (to date) answered. And we're not talking about a camera that is in the development stage here - it's about a week after the camera apparently shipped for full-on consumer distribution.

That makes me nervous. I'm looking Panasonic's way with a furrowed brow.

I'm now going to go clean my shoes.
 
esperman said:
Jarred....how has your experience with FCP been? I'm sure alot of Vegas users would like to hear from you on that point....before they take the plunge LOL
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I'm more interested in what the total cost is for people moving from Vegas to FCP. Are they continuing to do the rest of the work (audio, authoring, FX etc. on PC or moving the whole production workflow to Mac? If not, how are they managing cross-platfrom workflows?
 
stephenvv.. I am about 50% back and forth.. some programs i use only work on windows, so i do that on the win machine.


Dahopa.. your looking at it wrong. DVCproHD is not a consumer format, it is a professional format. Just like if someone gave you a HDCAM file and tried to injest it your system would puke. Professional formats require professional tools. Panasonic is allowing many of us to get a taste of the real world wit dvcpro HD in this $5000 camera.. so we cant give them to much hell about it.
 
Dahopafilms said:
At the risk of stepping in poo poo here, does not some (OK - the major)responsibility for NLE/PC issues here lie with (uh oh, here I go) Panasonic? They've (apparently) developed an incredible, revolutionary product that can't be edited on the standard equipment that so many of us have and use.
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I personally agree with you. I know they have been focused on getting the camera out, but considering the fact the DVCPro-HD is not a new format and camera was officially announced nearly a year ago, the state of NLE support (even Apple) is not stellar. I think Panasonic, as passionate as they are about P2 and DVCPro-HD needs to expend more effort on this issue.
 
I have to say I am in the same boat as many here. VERY dissapointed about this whole issue. This camera might be giving us access to a prof format. But it needs to be usable to be useful.

Macs are not more professional then PCs. If there is a MAC solution there needs to be a PC solution.

Panansonic is for sure dropping the ball here in that they are not even clearly communicating that they understand the issue and are putting a plan in place to fix it.

The panny advertisement for the hvx says "hired definition" - imply more work. Well we will all need more work to afford the switch or we wont be able to do the work because of all the issues.

Please someone sort this out :)

there, i feel better now.
 
I'm on the list, but I have a mind to wait on purchasing the HVX in-house until we see some goodwill and progress toward support in Vegas.

In the meantime, perhaps renting HVX and having it cut on my friend's Mac is a better workflow.

I'm disappointed that the camera is out and the program we just upgraded to doesn't support it. I'd like to see some cross-platform support on Panasonic's part before I jump into their proprietary-codec-based product line.

Should I have to change my OS to continue my work?

e
 
you guys are all nuts to be blaming panasonic here.. panasonic doesnt make NLE's.. its up to the NLE guys to support it or not. Like mentioned, dvcpro hd is not a new format, Panasonic isnt just trying to reinvent the wheel here with the codec.

Apple was smart and put up thier hand in class when panasonic announced P2. Sony didnt, Avid kinda did, and the Canopus thing, well i dont know if it works or not yet, but it sounds like the blade thing all over again... or it could be good and be like vegas (i bet you 50% of the vegas users here started using vegas only because of 24p support)

you guys should be yelling at Avid, and Sony to support the product. How come when HDV came out nobody was blaming Canon or JVC when none of the NLE's worked with it?

I know it sucks guys.. i was there till the switch. Im not saying you shouldnt be mad, im just saying your anger is misdirected.
 
Jarred Land said:
stephenvv.. I am about 50% back and forth.. some programs i use only work on windows, so i do that on the win machine.
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How are you moving files back and forth. What about recompression? What about networking? Sneakernet?


DVCproHD is not a consumer format, it is a professional format. Just like if someone gave you a HDCAM file and tried to injest it your system would puke. Professional formats require professional tools. Panasonic is allowing many of us to get a taste of the real world wit dvcpro HD in this $5000 camera.. so we cant give them to much hell about it.
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First, Vegas, Premiere, Avid etc. are professional tools and used by professional productions in the industry. No one expect consumer apps to support DVCPro-HD. So, Panasonic needs to insure their codec is fully supported by these tools.

Second, it's marketing & sales 101. More NLE = more sales. Maybe Panny thinks they will sell every HVX they make. True right now, but in 9 month, a year if NLE support stays like this? Perhaps not. Plus, if demand stays high, they can open production lines etc.

It's in the best interest of all parties concerned (Panasonic, NLE companies, users) to make this happen. So why is it not? (In Vegas's case, the Sony conspiracy, but it Sony really going to sacrifice Vegas installed based to protect camera sales?).
 
stephenvv said:
Ah, someone remembers. How many Blade users out there now.
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FYI when I went to sell my DVX, I considered offering Blade as an incentive, but didn't have the heart to even mention it in the Ebay ad. I just threw the CD into the box with the DVX and put a hand written note on it saying, "Use at your own risk".

I used Speed Razor with the PVR and made some decent bucks over time... then lost track of it for several years. When I bought my DVX, it was through In:sync with a package deal of the DVX and Blade. Took FOREVER to get the DVX (sometime in late Jan/Feb of that year) and Blade was a total disaster.

Saw Vegas at NAB a couple months later and jumped in, couldn't believe how stable it was compared to Blade.

As to my game plan, I think I'll wait until NAB before making any radical choices on NLE's... my main Velocity HD system will eventually be able to work with the HVX in HD (works now with MXF's in SD). If Vegas joins the civilized world, I'm good to go, if not I'll demo Canopus and take a hard look at a Mac with FCP... right now, I'

Jim Arthurs
 
Jarred Land said:
Dahopa.. your looking at it wrong. DVCproHD is not a consumer format, it is a professional format. Just like if someone gave you a HDCAM file and tried to injest it your system would puke. Professional formats require professional tools. Panasonic is allowing many of us to get a taste of the real world wit dvcpro HD in this $5000 camera.. so we cant give them to much hell about it.
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I'm good with that explanation (yeah, ok - not really), but given that Panasonic is marketing this camera to pro-sumers (whatever that means) what would be wrong with them having a big label on the box (not that we've actually seen a box) simply saying:

CAUTION: PRODUCT CANNOT BE EDITED USING ANY KNOWN PC-BASED EDITING SYSTEM.

I'm happy when manufacturers inform and educate their customers about their products. Kinda like manufacturers of window blinds that tell you not to hang yourself on the cord.

Or better yet, bump the purchase price up by about $6000 and throw in a "free" G5 editing system?:undecided

OK - back to the point: Can someone simply tell me - based on current PC technology (note I did not say currently available PC-based NLEs) is it not possible to realistically have a PC-based NLE for DVCProHD? That's a "yes" or "no" answer.

If "no", then I'm off to buy a G5 (admittedly risking divorce in the process). If "yes", then I return to my original question - why isn't Panasonic developing its own PC-based NLE software to support this format if it can't play well with others (like Sony)?
 
If a company produces a product they should make sure the infrastructure exists for their users, cause that will drive sales.

Panny is a large enough company with enough clout and money to help "force" the NLEs in the correct direction for this. THis is Pannys big push for P2 so they need to be invested in their users being able to use it.

Of course we can blame avid etc. But they are not the source of the new technology. If Intel hyped up a new chip for a year but to buy it you need to replace your software - who do you blame - INTEL not the 20 software vendors who build stuff to run on it.

Maybe thats only a loose analogy - but my brain hurts
 
Just did a little Cyber shopping at the Macmall and for about $6500 you can get the quad G-5 with two gigs of ram, a 12" wide screen power book with 1Gig of ram and FCP studio. I sure wish we could get some news on HVX deliveries and some news on other editing programs like the Premiere pro suit I have now so that I could make an intelligent decision on going to mac or staying with a PC.

David
 
Jarred Land said:
interesting how many people are moving to mac's just for this camera... I thought i was the only one... and i always said i never would :)
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I dislike Apple but like the Mac and have seriously considered switching to a Mac.

Besides my personal preference, no matter how many PC users decide to switch to a Mac for DVCPro P2 editing it won't be enough. Sure FCP's market share has grown but it is still a very small percentage of the total NLE's being used professionally.

I am developing a similar "love-hate" relationship with Panasonic, love their products but don't understand how they can be so inept at launching such good technology. :embarasse
 
[How are you moving files back and forth. What about recompression? What about networking? Sneakernet?
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they network automatically.. plug a mac and a pc into the same router and they see eachother and all normal sharing works fine.


First, Vegas, Premiere, Avid etc. are professional tools and used by professional productions in the industry. No one expect consumer apps to support DVCPro-HD. So, Panasonic needs to insure their codec is fully supported by these tools.
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sorry i know the world professional pisses off many people here.. what i meant was products actually used in professional post houses... thats Avid #1 and FCP is gaining.
 
if anyone's interested, i'll be happy to find the cheapest mac g5 and powerbook g4 solutions through various links...
 
CAUTION: PRODUCT CANNOT BE EDITED USING ANY KNOWN PC-BASED EDITING SYSTEM.
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this is a hardware vs. software thing.. People dont phone mr. Dell asking him why adobe doesnt make mac products anymore.


OK - back to the point: Can someone simply tell me - based on current PC technology (note I did not say currently available PC-based NLEs) is it not possible to realistically have a PC-based NLE for DVCProHD? That's a "yes" or "no" answer.
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someones gotta get thier hands on edius broadcast. other than that, no.
If "no", then I'm off to buy a G5 (admittedly risking divorce in the process). If "yes", then I return to my original question - why isn't Panasonic developing its own PC-based NLE software to support this format if it can't play well with others (like Sony)?
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he my appartment will be empty by next weekend.. when the wife kicks you out you can sleep on the floor here for the next 2 weeks while im moving :)

seriously though, this is a good point. bringing up HDV again, when nobody supported HDV JVC included a little app in the box that could convert the footage to a codec nles could understand... Panasonic should do this, at least for the PC side of things.
 
Just a matter of time until we get full PC support. I bet in a years time most of the PC NLE's will have support.
 
Jarred Land said:
sorry i know the world professional pisses off many people here.. what i meant was products actually used in professional post houses... thats Avid #1 and FCP is gaining.
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Professional post houses are not the market for HVX purchases. Production shops are and Vegas, Premiere Pro etc. are widely used there.
 
Isaac_Brody said:
Just a matter of time until we get full PC support. I bet in a years time most of the PC NLE's will have support.
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I would argue that that's too long. The DVX has support in much less time as did HDV flavors.
 
Jarred Land said:
he my appartment will be empty by next weekend.. when the wife kicks you out you can sleep on the floor here for the next 2 weeks while im moving :)

seriously though, this is a good point. bringing up HDV again, when nobody supported HDV JVC included a little app in the box that could convert the footage to a codec nles could understand... Panasonic should do this, at least for the PC side of things.
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I've seen your floor. Forget it. There's no room - even for my comparatively gnome-like frame.

Anyway ... so do I continue with my purchase of the HVX (adding in the apparently obligatory G5 editing system), or simply spend the same amount for a brand new DVX100 (staying with Vegas for obvious reasons) and they'll throw in a free, new roof for my house?

And I avoid the divorce (which would by my calculations save me about a half a mil).

Hmmm.
 
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