PC/Windows NLE Mess - Jan - what can be done?

Status
Not open for further replies.
stephenvv

stephenvv

Well-known member
Okay, after reading the various threads and playing with the few files I can get my hands on, I'm gonna say it. The HVX is not very usable on the PC/Windows platform at this time or in the near future (pending some surprise announcements).

The HVX works in FCP and while few/some can consider changing platforms, for most of us, it's not an option. The only real option is cancelling/delaying HVX200 orders. Personally, like many DVX owners (and many HVX order-ers), I use and have my operation's work-flow based around Vegas, DVD Architect, Sound Forge, etc. I could consider moving to Premiere Pro (hacking hairball sound) or maybe Avid (huge hacking hairball sound) but not Canopus (anyone remember Blade for the DVX?).

The current PC state is as best as I can tell (please correct/add - actually, we probably need a sticky HVX NLE FAQ considering all the formats, issues, frame rates).

(1) Vegas - complete bust, you have to transcode files using a buggy, not yet fully working utility (DV Filmmaker) to create Quicktimes which in Vegas means 2-4 fps playback on most machines. That's simply not workable. Sony has been absolutely dead silent. My guess is it might take a class action of some kind to get Sony moving on this. Why didn't Panny buy 'em...:cry:

(2) Premiere Pro - no announcement, no support, not usable. Premiere Pro 2 will arrive at some point, but some official announcement would really be helpful.

(3) Avid - Support is claimed but thus far delivered in a buggy, very incomplete fashion. According to reports here and elsewhere, after shelling out $1500+, you will get a problematic support for just a handful of frame rates. That's not really a fair option, especially since Avid has not announced plans for full support of the HVX200 with real-time playback of all the frame rates. Or buy an $80K Andrenaline and all is well :evil:

(4) Canopus - $1000 gets you Edius Broadcast, but this is second class NLE, with very limited features & support (plugins etc.), does not play well with others, has had an up and down past, and considering the purchase by Thompson of Canopus, a very uncertain future. This very much reminds me of Blade that touted early DVX 24p support. Feel sorry for those that dropped bucks on that one.

I believe it's going to take some action by Panasonic to get something to happen here. Personally, adding a G5, accessories, FCP, various cross-platform upgrades etc to the price of an HVX is deal-killer.

I would be very interested in what other PC/Windows shops are going to do with their shiny new HVX other than fill up drives with MXF files...
 
I have held off the siren song of Mac & FCP. I never had a compelling reason to switch. Now I do. Buying a whole new Mac edit system and the HVX is still cheaper than buying just a VariCam. I have Vegas and other PC edit systems that will be relegated to editing legacy jobs here and there. I cannot sell them as they are not worth anything.....I finally put my circa 1998 DigiSuite editing computer to the curb for recycle pick-up....original cost of that entire system in 1998 was $35,000.....In 2014 I will probably be putting the Apple FCP out to the curb as well.....
 
Pretty frustrating situation on the PC side right now. Gotta admit that Apple handled the DVCpro situation brilliantly. I bet a lot of people have already made the switch to use this camera.
 
I feel sorry for you guys who have access to the camera right now. At least because I wont get one here for 3 months I can afford to sit back and see how the NLE game pads out on the PC before making decisions I might regret.

Personally Im counting on Adobe offering competative support in their next release. If it comes out before the camera does here then I'll be happy. But thats no consolation for you PC users right now who want access to the camera.

Sanjin, your post was hilarious. Keep em coming. I love it.
 
I faced the same problem with the DVX

I faced the same problem with the DVX

I don't want to turn this thread into a religious discussion, but I ended up having to switch to the Mac.

I faced the same problem as you are now, when I bought one of the first DVX's in Canada. I took a leap of faith with the camera, but I wasn't sure how I was actually going to edit the footage. And I had a feature film to shoot.

My NLE background was PC - I built my own workstations, running DPS (now Leitch, now Thomson) cards, and a mix of Premiere and DPS software. I was never satisfied with the reliability or professionalness of NLE on the PC, and watched all of my colleagues buy Mac Final Cut Pro workstations that ran perfectly.

I stayed away from Macs because of the high sticker price on the top-of-the-line PowerMacs. I couldn't afford to pay those dollars, and always cobbled together my PCs from the motherboard up. What I didn't know was that a PowerMac G5 is not necessary.

One of the professional editors I know was still cutting broadcast TV with a PowerMac G3 and FCP 1 as recently as two years ago. That convinced me to make the switch -- because you clearly didn't need the latest and greatest Mac to be able to edit! I bought a bottom-of-the-line iBook, a used copy of FCP 2, and the very-useable DVFilm Maker. This anemic Mac (G3 700) cut a 100 minute feature, and even authored a gorgeous 24P DVD (using BitVice). The total cost was very low - comparable to buying yet another unworkable piece of software for the PC.

I've never looked back. I just picked up a G5 iMac for $1199 CDN ($1056 US) and it's an even better deal.

Now that the HVX is coming, I'm glad I'm already in the Mac camp. Making the switch was a big leap of faith, and cost some money, but has saved me considerable aggravation and stopped the never-ending trickle of money that I spent keeping my PC's current and operational. I feel like I'm in a better place to take advantage of the HVX (and even better) cameras.
 
stephenvv said:
The HVX works in FCP and while few/some can consider changing platforms, for most of us, it's not an option. The only real option is cancelling/delaying HVX200 orders. Personally, like many DVX owners (and many HVX order-ers), I use and have my operation's work-flow based around Vegas, DVD Architect, Sound Forge, etc. I could consider moving to Premiere Pro (hacking hairball sound) or maybe Avid (huge hacking hairball sound) but not Canopus (anyone remember Blade for the DVX?).
Click to expand...

Actually Blade was made by Insync...a DV version of Speed Razor.

Macs have a longer lifespan than the typical PC. Final Cut Pro is cheap compared to Avid....and it's user base os growing.

I have said this before..I'll say it again....going HD is not cheap. period.
People who complain about mxf or hd requirements should stick with the DVX line.

Avid Media Composer on HP - roughly 40K. Varicam - roughly 60K.

Still think a G5 running FCP to cut HVX footage is expensive? I don't think so.
 
Best deal out is CineForm's DI workflow with HD-SDI in and out and REALTIME EDITING and EFFECTS!! not only do you get a TOP OF THE LINE codec to do your Color grading and VFX work with,but it's all SOFTWARE! evrytime you buy a faster CPU you get MORE from your original buy of the CineForm system!

I just bought from them, I can now edit in REALTIME 720p 1080p and 2k files! cost? about $8,000 total...a bit less then an AVID...and a better codec for post work.

jsut an FYI that you do have options ...if you want Analog OR HD-SDI this thing has it, you could allways jsut use it to capture from the Camera's R G B out for now, and deal with P2 later on
 
dont forget matrox axio. i was rather impressed by a demo of it recently and i think they have a recent update to deal with mxf DVCPro files but i admit i could be wrong on that. the real time uncompressed HD color correction demo was stunning, but i admit it's a bit pricey however you get HD-SDI with sugar coating.
 
contentlab said:
dont forget matrox axio. i was rather impressed by a demo of it recently and i think they have a recent update to deal with mxf DVCPro files but i admit i could be wrong on that. the real time uncompressed HD color correction demo was stunning, but i admit it's a bit pricey however you get HD-SDI with sugar coating.
Click to expand...

They do have an update, but I have not seen/heard how well it actually works. It's a $15K+ dedicated hardware system, so not really a solution to lack of support in Vegas, Premiere etc.
 
contentlab said:
dont forget matrox axio. i was rather impressed by a demo of it recently and i think they have a recent update to deal with mxf DVCPro files but i admit i could be wrong on that. the real time uncompressed HD color correction demo was stunning, but i admit it's a bit pricey however you get HD-SDI with sugar coating.
Click to expand...

I saw a demo of AXIO. It was nice but there is not an easy way to get P2 into an AXIO system. There are some renderering workarounds but for the same price you can easily go Mac FCP.
I have talked with several agencies in town regarding HD and FCP.
Most wanted more info as many of them are already doing off-lines with FCP in house. AXIO would not be compatible and MATROX seems to be dumb founded about the HVX in general.
 
Go to apple.com, click on store, then scroll down and click on the red tag. Then purchase a refurbished mac for cheaper than a new one.

But, wait until after macworld please.
 
HVXguy said:
Buying a whole new Mac edit system and the HVX is still cheaper than buying just a VariCam.
Click to expand...

That's very convoluted logic...by that logic a HVX plus a new Corvette is cheaper than a Varicam?
 
I could be way off here, but can't you just transcode files from the HVX to a low res, edit them in Vegas as proxies, and render out to DVCPRO at the end? Are we missing a codec?

I'm not too up on DVCPRO as I don't have the money to invest in the cam yet, so my apologies if I'm mistaken.

Get over to the Sony forums and start making a bit of a stink -- better yet, file a ticket with their suggestion system. Vegas 7 should be out in Feb/March, right? I wouldn't be surprised if we see more comprehensive MXF/DVCPRO support included in the upgrade provided enough people ask for it!
 
esperman said:
Actually Blade was made by Insync...a DV version of Speed Razor.
Click to expand...

Ah, someone remembers. How many Blade users out there now.

I have said this before..I'll say it again....going HD is not cheap. period.
People who complain about mxf or hd requirements should stick with the DVX line.

Avid Media Composer on HP - roughly 40K. Varicam - roughly 60K.

Still think a G5 running FCP to cut HVX footage is expensive? I don't think so.
Click to expand...

A G5 is not that expensive. A G5 plus FCP plus various support apps, plus cross-platform upgrades or switches for audio, FX, plugins can easily set you back more than the HVX.

There's no technical limitation that apps that now support HDV cannot add DVC-ProHD support. Bailing to the Mac is not a smart business solution for many places.
 
I used to cut on Speed Razor..so I remember Blade well. It would have been okay really..but Insync was sinking...
and to be honest...I still edit on the Toaster 4 for certain things....but I don't miss the pc when editing on the G5.
Anyways..all computers get obsolete...but the Mac has a great track record in terms of longevity. I know people who still cut features on a G4 with FCP 3. How many people running P3 and Premier can do that?
 
stephenvv said:
That's very convoluted logic...by that logic a HVX plus a new Corvette is cheaper than a Varicam?
Click to expand...

That depends. A base Corvette coupe goes for $45,000, so that along with the HVX would be cheaper. However, a Z06 is $65,900, or basically the same price as a Varicam. Add an HVX to that and you're looking at a considerably more expensive package.

I think there is more fun to be had with the Corvette/HVX combo than a Varicam and if you can swing it, go for the Z06.
 
esperman said:
I know people who still cut features on a G4 with FCP 3. How many people running P3 and Premier can do that?
Click to expand...

"Primer" was cut on cheap ass PC with Premier 5.
 
tuface said:
That depends. A base Corvette coupe goes for $45,000, so that along with the HVX would be cheaper. However, a Z06 is $65,900, or basically the same price as a Varicam. Add an HVX to that and you're looking at a considerably more expensive package.

I think there is more fun to be had with the Corvette/HVX combo than a Varicam and if you can swing it, go for the Z06.
Click to expand...

Don't forget lens(es) for a Varicam (not to mention all the other stuff you need for a workable Varicam kit - $100K is probably a fair budget to get started).
 
interesting how many people are moving to mac's just for this camera... I thought i was the only one... and i always said i never would :)
 
Jarred....how has your experience with FCP been? I'm sure alot of Vegas users would like to hear from you on that point....before they take the plunge LOL
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top