PC/Windows NLE Mess - Jan - what can be done?

[Taylor Moore]

interesting how many people are moving to mac's just for this camera... I thought i was the only one... and i always said i never would

Awww Jarred, I remember that transformation ....

and now possibly Barry...prolific.

 

[stephenvv]

everyone needs to remember your on the bleeding edge here in HD workflow.. its not normal to have these problems, it happend with HDV, hell it even happend with the orignal DVX and 24p... and still happens, Windows 64bit edition has been out for 6 months already and only a handful of hardware companies actually support it.

So be patient everyone If you need to cut HVX stuff right now, your gonna hafta buy a mac. if you dont want to, wait a few months till the PC gets it's shiznit together and supports it. If your pissed, dont buy the camera. But dont blame Panasonic.

I'm gonna debate these points. HD is no longer "bleeding edge". Almost all NLE's, including many cheap ass consumer cams support HD editing.

The issue is not "bleeding edge" HD - it's only a codec issue, not an HD issue. DVCProd-HD is simply a proprietary codec created and licensed by Panasonic. They bear 50% of responsibility for getting HD NLE's to support their codec.

 

[Chris Messineo]

They bear 50% of responsibility for getting HD NLE's to support their codec.

I imagine Panasonic would love nothing more than have every editing system on the market support their codec. I doubt very much it is Panasonic dragging their feet on this.

Chris

 

[stephenvv]

I imagine Panasonic would love nothing more than have every editing system on the market support their codec. I doubt very much it is Panasonic dragging their feet on this.

Chris

From what evidence I can piece together, they may have not been "dragging their feet" but it's clear they have not been "pounding the pavement" either.

 

[Barry_Green]

Okay, time for a reality check please:

JVC introduced the HD1 in spring 2003. It was over TWO YEARS before Apple introduced FCP5 with full HDV support. Two and a HALF years before Avid did.

The HD100 was announced in February 2005, and delivered to first customers in July 2005 (not in the US, but internationally). It's now January 2006, 11 months after announcement and 7 months after delivery, and FCP STILL doesn't have support for its 24p mode.

The FX1 was announced in April 2004, delivered in October 2004. It was 7 months before FCP had native HDV editing installed. And another five months before Avid did.

Now let's compare this with the HVX: Apple had native DVCPRO-HD support working 20 MONTHS BEFORE the HVX was released! Is it any wonder that Apple has the best support right now?

Let's go back to October 15, 2004, one week after the FX1 was released -- how were you editing HDV then? Oh, that's right, you weren't.

Now let's look at the HVX: it's been on the market ONE WEEK. One week. Not 7 months, not 20 months, not three years. One week. ONE WEEK. And already you have excellent full realtime end-to-end support from Apple, you have end-to-end full MXF support from Canopus (but I don't know how its editing support is), and you even have some degree of support from Avid, including native MXF support. And, you already have announced and maybe-even working support from the Matrox Axio, and a sort-of-workaround for Vegas and Premiere Pro in DVFilm Maker.

Guys, be realistic -- while the situation is far from ideal, it's SO MUCH BETTER than any other new format has had at its launch.

It's not ideal. In fact it's irritating. But it's still way, way, way better. Would you rather wait 7 months to edit your HDV, or would you rather be able to pick up a $599 Mac Mini (with 1gb RAM) and run FCP 5 today?

For those of us on the bleeding edge, yes we'll bleed a little. But I have no doubt that HVX users willing to switch to the Mac will be able to put the unit in full production mode immediately, vs. having to wait half a year for editing support.

And for those of us on the PC, here's something that may end up being palatable:
http://www.dvfilm.com/raylight/index.htm

Marcus is developing a real-time DVCPRO-HD codec and a one-stop MXF unwrap/rewrap. It should give Vegas and Premiere users performance comparable to what Apple users already have.

So please -- look at what IS, compare it to what others have done, and recognize where we are. Early-adopter HVX users are way, way, way better off than early adopter HDV users ever were.

 

[Jarred Land]

I'm gonna debate these points. HD is no longer "bleeding edge". Almost all NLE's, including many cheap ass consumer cams support HD editing.

The issue is not "bleeding edge" HD - it's only a codec issue, not an HD issue. DVCProd-HD is simply a proprietary codec created and licensed by Panasonic. They bear 50% of responsibility for getting HD NLE's to support their codec.

im gonna call BS on that one.. P2 HD and the HVX is bleeding edge. stop confusing this with HDV... its not the same.

and your whole 50% via codec thing is bunk too.. so your telling me Microsoft has 50% responsibility for every single software company out there to create products for Win XP? give me a break.

 

[Barry_Green]

I guess the point I'm unsuccessfully trying to hammer through here is that if there is a solution to the PC NLE issue, why shouldn't we be kicking in the door and switching on the lights for Panasonic so Panny can see that it's in their own best interests to come up with a workable PC-NLE solution - and fast!

Do you honestly believe that we haven't been doing that? Seriously. I have been hammering, pounding, kicking, screaming, bleeding and causing bleeding. I've facilitated conference calls and meetings, I've sent demo files to people who needed to get them. I've put people in the same room together who needed to get in the room together. I've laid out business plans for both sides. I even went so far as to contact certain key software developers about creating my own DVCPRO-HD codec.

It's been done. What can be said has been said. I've done what I can to get the grownups from each company to communicate, and now the grownups are in the same room and they're talking to each other. Whether a satisfactory result will come about remains to be seen. But it's absolutely not for a lack of trying!

 

[Taylor Moore]

From what evidence I can piece together, they may have not been "dragging their feet" but it's clear they have not been "pounding the pavement" either.

Well, as with most software companies, "Navel Gazing is part of the problem"
I don't think alot of the PC NLE companies realized how much of an impact and eventual market share the HVX is/was going to take.

As Jarred said, we are on the cutting edge of tech, and that you use what works regardless of platform. Cause when it doesn't work your SCREWED.

 

[Barry_Green]

Does this mean that Barry Green is getting a MAC??

If it wasn't for MWSF next week, I'd probably have already picked up a Mini to start playing with. The way I look at it (and I know others won't look at it this way) but the Mac Mini with 1GB costs about the same as a single 4GB P2 card. Now, justifying the price of FCP, well, that's harder.

I'm looking forward to testing Raylight; if it works as well as I'm hoping, it may be a workable enough solution to not have to spend the dough for a Mac.
http://www.dvfilm.com/raylight/index.htm

 

[Jarred Land]

thanks barry.. i felt a little lonely here.

 

[Erik Olson]

...JVC introduced the HD1 in spring 2003. It was over TWO YEARS before Apple introduced FCP5 with full HDV support. Two and a HALF years before Avid did.

The HD100 was announced in February 2005, and delivered to first customers in July 2005 (not in the US, but internationally). It's now January 2006, 11 months after announcement and 7 months after delivery, and FCP STILL doesn't have support for its 24p mode.

The FX1 was announced in April 2004, delivered in October 2004. It was 7 months before FCP had native HDV editing installed. And another five months before Avid did.

Now let's compare this with the HVX...

Yeah, but all those cameras are lame and suck. And that is the point.

e

 

[smelni]

im gonna call BS on that one.. P2 HD and the HVX is bleeding edge. stop confusing this with HDV... its not the same.

and your whole 50% via codec thing is bunk too.. so your telling me Microsoft has 50% responsibility for every single software company out there to create products for Win XP? give me a break.

Yes microsoft absolutely has some responsibility for the software that is developed. maybe not 50 % but a good portion - its their responsibility to create APIs that work, are secure and do what is needed.

Similarly panasonic holds some of the responsibility to create the tools (ie codecs etc) that the NLEs need to use their product

 

[stephenvv]

im gonna call BS on that one.. P2 HD and the HVX is bleeding edge. stop confusing this with HDV... its not the same..

You're the one confusing the issue. I did not say "HDV" = I said HD. HD is the umbrella format, HDV flavors of the codec used. HD is no longer bleeding edge. Some HDV codec implementations (e.g. JVC 24p and Canon 24F are bleeding edge). 1080i HDV is not bleeding edge. Nor is DVCPro-HD is not bleeding edge. It's not new - been around for years.

 

[Barry_Green]

From what evidence I can piece together, they may have not been "dragging their feet" but it's clear they have not been "pounding the pavement" either.

With all due respect, I disagree 100%. They got FCP on board 20 months ago. They had Avid supposedly in place already. And they have Canopus. That sounds like a lot of pavement pounding to me.

If the NLE companies have not properly implemented support, point the finger at them. If Avid has MXF support and can capture 1080/24p on its higher-end systems but not on Express Pro, how can you blame Panasonic for that?

 

[icicle22]

OK. I know this is a tad off-topic but how much performance are you going to get with FCP on a mac-mini? Seeing as I have a MAC-MINI with 512MB RAM and a copy of Final Cut Express HD here at my office. I am entitiled to a $499 updgrade to Pro version and for $100 more 1 GIG of Ram. What realistically can I expect from this? (using external fast USB2 drives and firewire for camera)

Also....Barry....can you try and get a final answer to this question. Does the HVX output to HD monitor when connected to Firewire? Someone has to have a real answer here soon. If you hook the firewire out of the MAC from FCP to the hvx and scrub the timeline or play from the timeline do we get to see a picture on the outputs of the HVX?

From what I understand FCP is designed to do this with the DVCPRO Deck from Pana. So it seems doable.

Thanks!

 

[ullanta]

Well, as with most software companies, "Navel Gazing is part of the problem"
I don't think alot of the PC NLE companies realized how much of an impact and eventual market share the HVX is/was going to take.

Dare I say it... though certainly a lot of folks here care a lot about the HVX... I'm not sure that it really makes a dent in market share?

I say NOT SURE, I'm not claiming it won't. But I wouldn't assume blindly that HVX support would make a big $$ difference to NLE-makers. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I assume that the majority of sales of Vegas, Premiere, and cheaper Avid products (and even FCP) are to people who would balk at the full investment necessary for decent HVX production anyway. Development effort + licensing fees may not cover projected benefit...

Anyone know anything about number of anticipated HVX sales vs., say, HDV cams?

 

[stephenvv]

your telling me Microsoft has 50% responsibility for every single software company out there to create products for Win XP? give me a break.

I am telling you and it is absolutely a fact (I used to work full-time in IT and still do part-time). Microsoft has an enormous developer network, platform SDKs, alpha, beta, CTP programs, validation labs and literally hundreds of millions of dollars insuring companies can develop software for XP. With Microsoft it is at least 50% (more for big developers).

 

[Justyn]

Thanks guys. I can send use this thread as a link to why I think everyone should be on a Mac. Everyone.. from computer novices to hardcore comp geeks. It's always going to be on the cutting edge as a tool for artists and NOT technicians. I don't know what GOP's are and care if it's not 4:2:2 or whatever. I like that I plug it in and it works. I like that it's inuative and I believe a lot of people think that computers shouldn't be for everyone and there should be some mysticism behind the operation... Kind of the tech guy from that SNL sketch.

Macs are more expensive but I'll pay for the peace of mind in knowing that I have a future proof system because it takes care of my needs. It's also nice to know that I have never.. and will probably never get a virus. Now my PC on the other hand is more infested than Madonna on the Like a Virgin tour.


Thanks for allowing me to just point people towards this thread... Even though it's about a bleeding edge item it's representative of the differences. Same as it was with
DV in the beginning as well as graphics, music and security.


J

 

[Barry_Green]

I'm gonna debate these points. HD is no longer "bleeding edge". Almost all NLE's, including many cheap ass consumer cams support HD editing.

The issue is not "bleeding edge" HD - it's only a codec issue, not an HD issue. DVCProd-HD is simply a proprietary codec created and licensed by Panasonic. They bear 50% of responsibility for getting HD NLE's to support their codec.

Stephen, please. Let's look at it -- yes many NLE's have "HD support." What does that mean? Some limited support for 720/30p, and some support for 1080/60i.

Where's the support for JVC 720/24p? Nowhere. Nobody has it. Where's the support for Canon 24F? Canon 30F? NOWHERE. Nobody has it. You can't honestly say that HD support is no longer bleeding edge like this, because even products that have been on the market for a month (like the Canon) or six months (like the JVC) don't have support.

Now contrast that with the HVX, which shoots four different formats at nominally about 80 different ways. There are 20 different ways to record 24P, for cryin' out loud. Yes it's bleeding edge. And yes, there will be some hiccups before 100% full support is across the board. But the situation is way better now for the HVX than it ever was for the HDV products.

 

[esperman]

I personally agree with you. I know they have been focused on getting the camera out, but considering the fact the DVCPro-HD is not a new format and camera was officially announced nearly a year ago, the state of NLE support (even Apple) is not stellar. I think Panasonic, as passionate as they are about P2 and DVCPro-HD needs to expend more effort on this issue.

be careful here...anyone familiar with sony xpri? :thumbdown
we don't need a 100K editing solution from panny.