Panasonic's new version of HPX300

[Barry_Green]

UK model just announced and they claim different specs (f11) and have called the new sensor something else! I smell a marketing rat!

http://www.panasonic-broadcast.com/en/HPX371.php

Why do you smell a "marketing rat"? What's that supposed to mean even?

The 370 lists itself as f10 in 1080/60i, and f11 in 1080/50i. There's nothing different there. Same camera, same sensor, but it's more sensitive when in 50i mode. Read the USA HPX370 brochure, it's listed there.

I don't know what "MAICO" is supposed to mean, versus "ULT"... apparently the European marketing manager thought "MAICO" was a better description for their target market.

Chevy found out the "Nova" was a pretty lousy model name for a car in South America; "no va" kind of means "no go". So they changed the name for their local market.

Is this some sort of big deal or something?

 

[Christian m]

Nobody here is asking for something for nothing. I see no evidence that anyone is demanding their money back or threatening to sue. If any position is ridiculous, it is the one from people who have no interest in the matter, but insist that HPX300 owners shouldn't even ask Panasonic about the viability of an upgrade.

As long I work with cameras I'm always have interest in any matter that relate to gear I might buy in the future. Thus interest in the matter. No one did deny anyone asking for upgrades...

Imagine if you'd just started working that HPX500 and then, within a couple months, found that the HPX500 camera sensors had been updated to true HD? Same body. Are you telling me that you'd just chalk it up to so much "that's just how it is" bad luck?

Within a cuople of months? The 300 is a year old...the 500 even older. As a former it "dude" I'm kind of used to equipment being replaced a lot faster than what's been the norm for broadcast gear.

If I'm always going wait for something better I never could purchase any gear that has electronics in it....to me a camera body should pay for itself within a year anyway. Also I can take into account that SD is what's mostly broadcasted in Norway anyway. So a upgraded 500 would be nice, but not needed at the moment to the market i deliver. Also I could always sell the 500 i have today...and buy the new one...

Notice that no one is bitching about the new, improved range / quality lens that comes bundled with the HPX370? That's because it's a kit consideration, just like free P2 cards or an Anton Bauer battery system and no one is surprised when those specifications change.

The lens is the same as far as I can read....

At this point, I'm more frustrated with those who can't help interjecting their worthless opinions than I am with Panasonic's silence on the matter.

Zip it!

Zip it!? I'm as frustrated from seeing totally unrealistic upgrade ideas to existing cameras, at this price point! Take a look at the market today, Sony SRW9000 is the only camera having a modular block and storage design...at 75grand a completely different market than a Hpx300. Oh, yes we have RED, but that's kind of in it's own world on when it will hit the market.

If my realistic view on budget gear is worthless....fine with me.

 

[Erik Olson]

Within a cuople of months? The 300 is a year old...the 500 even older. As a former it "dude" I'm kind of used to equipment being replaced a lot faster than what's been the norm for broadcast gear.

If I'm always going wait for something better I never could purchase any gear that has electronics in it....to me a camera body should pay for itself within a year anyway.

The 300 went back to the drawing board for a fix (which is what the 370 is) within the first two quarters after its release. Deny it. How is that for confidence in a production model? For what it's worth, the street date on the HPX300 was March 15, 2009. Suggesting that the 300 was out "...more than a year" is disingenuous. It wasn't.

The fact is that the HPX300 was on the street for less than one year before Panasonic announced that it was being phased out completely. End of product. Not going to get an "A", "B", "F" or "H". It's just G O N E.

Concurrently, Panasonic enhanced their venerable P2HD line, announcing that they had an Exciting! New! Model! (same camera, thank you very much for not looking too closely) available TODAY!!! Right now!!! No NAB preview with a balsa model, no trades given the chance to sneak the model weeks in front of the production release. No, neither of those things would happen, because this new, totally unprecedented (but still identical in most every way) HPX370 simply had to be released As Soon As Possible!

In the meantime, the most exciting camera of 2009...

Does.

Not.

Exist.

Anymore.

Again, this whole thread will become moot when Panasonic offers to do what we've suggested.

 

[GaryNattrass]

Why do you smell a "marketing rat"? What's that supposed to mean even?

The 370 lists itself as f10 in 1080/60i, and f11 in 1080/50i. There's nothing different there. Same camera, same sensor, but it's more sensitive when in 50i mode. Read the USA HPX370 brochure, it's listed there.

I don't know what "MAICO" is supposed to mean, versus "ULT"... apparently the European marketing manager thought "MAICO" was a better description for their target market.

Chevy found out the "Nova" was a pretty lousy model name for a car in South America; "no va" kind of means "no go". So they changed the name for their local market.

Is this some sort of big deal or something?

I am sorry Barry but I get suspicious of companies who don't develop their products properly and then do re-launches a year later using different names for different regions.

As far as the spec goes for this camera I already have in my 301 most of the features and I am expected to buy the camera again to get a 2 stop improvement in the noise floor. The camera is unuseable beyond F5.6 due to CA as highlighted in the BBC report I have so to quote F10 or F11 means nothing to me as I would never use a 1/3" chip camera at those apertures.

Most of this just smacks of re-marketing due to poor sales of the 300/301 OK then that is fine but I will have to really consider what my personal equipment workflow is if these cameras are going to be made obsolete on a yearly basis.

The 301/370 still does not meet EBU and BBC specs for broadcast here as 1/2" is the minimum so it may be that I will be switching back to Sony for my next re-equip and dropping the P2 system as I suspect that the format will be the next thing to be upgraded.

You said it your self that the european marketing people may have thought that MAICO was a better name but I might as well go and spread some cerimides on my butt and rub my hands with peptimides and serum:laugh: Sorry more marketing speak thats moistiorising cream to me!

Its no big deal anyway as most of my clients wouldn't know a 301 for a 371 anyway, we used to have a car called a Ford probe here but that didn't sell, not for the name but because it was just a mondeo with a different body on it!

 

[Emmet Brown]

So, now my two cents on this thread. I still like my 301, i learned to handle its limitations. And im asking myself: What would be the advantage of this U.L.T-Sensor? What maybe is a disadvantage? More Power-Consumption? More Noise? More Heat?

Maybe its similar to the digital-Photography, were more and more MegaPixels obviously is not meaning better quality, because its just too much work for the little chips.... The best digital Photocameras are the older ones with less MPs!!

Its still a 1/3 CMos Sensor. So i still would try to shoot with lens open as much as possible, as i always do, even with bigger chipped cameras. So maybe the 301 is better at this point? Would i need a 5th ND-Filter at the 370? With 1/128? Most of my shooting is in well lit situations, and if its not, i can light up the scene. And if this is not possible, its bad luck and a rare situation were content is more important than quality of the picture.

So im not "amazed" or angry, just waiting for reviews or my own hands-on the 370. Be cool, thats life! And the 300 is still a great cam, i made money with it in the last 12 Month, so what?

 

[mountainmedia]

Yes, but that's not how they were actually priced. The HPX300 included about $1,000 worth of P2 cards, and an $800 rebate. So when you're talking about cash out of pocket, the HPX370 will cost about $3,000 more than the HPX300.

I'm sorry but, huh? A list price is a list price. Of course there will always be incentives (as it seems there already are with the 370) and/or other offers - just like with car manufacturers and dealers. The point is - when Panasonic set the list price of the 370, they did so for $1,000 more - not $3,000 more.

 

[Mark Smith]

I came to the 300 late.... Bought one last november. THat said its returned its price in rentals already so at this point if I sell it for 4500, I've made out really well. I think all y'all gotta chill a bit. We're talking about a pretty inexpensive camera with the 300.

 

[AwakenedFilms]

Now listed on B&H, same price: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/684286-REG/Panasonic_AG_HPX370_AG_HPX370_P2HD_CAMCORDER.html



Jason

 

[Barry_Green]

I'm sorry but, huh? A list price is a list price. Of course there will always be incentives (as it seems there already are with the 370) and/or other offers - just like with car manufacturers and dealers. The point is - when Panasonic set the list price of the 370, they did so for $1,000 more - not $3,000 more.

And I was referring to what people actually pay for it. What does "list price" matter, if that's not what people pay?

HPX300 = $7800, and then there's an $800 rebate and the value of two $650 P2 cards, so the base camera could be said to have cost $5700.

HPX370 = $9200, and there is no rebate or included P2 cards.

Real-world difference in cost? $3500.

So, again -- it's not like Panasonic substituted the 370 for the 300 and charged the same price, or even $1000 more. The real-world difference is $3,500. And that's a lot.

 

[jmarkham]

Amen Barry! .. Once we realized what Panasonic was putting out there
with the 300 promo .. it was a no-brainer to pick up another one. People
tend to concentrate on the 300 issues ( rolling-shutter / ISO ) ... but there
are far more pluses (IMHO) .. particularly at a $5800 price-point. The ACV-Intra
and Fujinon lens are steals at this price-point.

jeff

 

[GaryNattrass]

So the 370 and the 371 are pretty much now the same camera but here in the UK I will be paying around $13,500 for it at street prices. I paid $12,000 each for my 301's 11 months ago. The 301's are still set at that price and for the extra two stops of sensitivity on the 371 it is understandable why people in europe are a bit pissed at this as we pay premium prices all the time.

Why should we have to do this and if it is going to replaced on a yearly basis I might as well buy grey imports from the USA and take the risk regarding warranty!

And just to add those are OUR street prices here in the UK not RRP.

Dont get me wrong here I love my 301's too and I have earned enough to pay for them but there are others that are not as fortunate as me and as said re stills cameras my old nikon CCD 6mp D1x still makes nicer images than my mega pixel cmos D300.

 

[Cees Mutsaers]

I am also a bit angry after waiting and waiting for the right moment to buy my first cam and starting my own company. Starting from wanting to buy the sony VX1000, PD150, PD170, pana DVX100, HVX200, HVX201, HPX170 I finally pulled the trigger 4 months ago in buying a HPX301 accepting all the down flaws like noise and rolling shutter artifacts (which suddenly seemed not as a problem anymore when Pana came out with CMOS, RIGHT!) and now after the camera is just 1 year on the market and I possess it only 4 months I think is is a bit fast of Pana to replace it. Actually it looks to me more that they wanted the HPX300 to be on the marcket fast even with a not optimal sensor to not loose market share against the EX1/EX3. I can understand this after 2 years but not after 1 year !!

Buy the way I almost payed 12000 EUROS for the HPX301 and no way it is possible to earn it back in 4 months if you are starting company !!!

edit : i read the article of barry and although I appreciate what he does for this site he suddenly also calls it "flaws" in the HPX300 and the argument "you have to learn to shoot with a CMOS cam" is surpassed (else why would Pana improve it). Very strange behaviour !!!!!

So the 370 and the 371 are pretty much now the same camera but here in the UK I will be paying around $13,500 for it at street prices. I paid $12,000 each for my 301's 11 months ago. The 301's are still set at that price and for the extra two stops of sensitivity on the 371 it is understandable why people in europe are a bit pissed at this as we pay premium prices all the time.

Why should we have to do this and if it is going to replaced on a yearly basis I might as well buy grey imports from the USA and take the risk regarding warranty!

And just to add those are OUR street prices here in the UK not RRP.

Dont get me wrong here I love my 301's too and I have earned enough to pay for them but there are others that are not as fortunate as me and as said re stills cameras my old nikon CCD 6mp D1x still makes nicer images than my mega pixel cmos D300.

 

[denonatum]

I am also a bit angry after waiting and waiting for the right moment to buy my first cam and starting my own company. Starting from wanting to buy the sony VX1000, PD150, PD170, pana DVX100, HVX200, HVX201, HPX170 I finally pulled the trigger 4 months ago in buying a HPX301 accepting all the down flaws like noise and rolling shutter artifacts (which suddenly seemed not as a problem anymore when Pana came out with CMOS, RIGHT!) and now after the camera is just 1 year on the market and I possess it only 4 months I think is is a bit fast of Pana to replace it. Actually it looks to me more that they wanted the HPX300 to be on the marcket fast even with a not optimal sensor to not loose market share against the EX1/EX3. I can understand this after 2 years but not after 1 year !!

Buy the way I almost payed 12000 EUROS for the HPX301 and no way it is possible to earn it back in 4 months if you are starting company !!!

I truly understand you. Two weeks ago I was going to buy the HPX301, but then I cancel the deal for a week expecting news about the hpx371. If I didnt do that I could have been the last hpx301 buyer in the world. People in this forum are always talking about the launch of the hpx301 a year ago. But the truth is that in the last weeks they have been trying to sell the hpx301 like there was no hpx371, even denying its existence. Thats a shame.
They should say "there is coming a hpx371, but the hpx301 its cheaper, has the same body, etc etc", instead of "buy the hpx301, the 371 is a fantasy". And in the last days they said to me "ok, there is a hpx371, but is only coming to europe in october or later, so buy the hpx301" - and now here it is with a 32GB card...! There is total desorientation on Panasonic.
You can say that I can earn back the costs of the camera in a year or a few months... but can I earn it back in a week or a month? Thats what I am talking about!
What to do about the clients who bought a hpx301 in March when Panasonic was keeping secret of hpx371?

I just want to say: thank you thank you thank you "photojournalist" (if you dont understand check the beginning of this thread)

And to Panasonic (Panasonic should also be thankful to "photojournalist" conscience) I want to say: Do what you have to do, but be honest! If you have to update a camera every month, thats ok, but be honest, always give choices and dont left your customers in the dark. If I trust a company I can understand almost everything, but if I dont trust, then even the little things seem wrong.

(sorry for bad english )

 

[GaryNattrass]

Just got this from Panasonic:

Panasonic Broadcast Europe Gary, according to the 371 engineer MAICO is the name given to the MOS' manufacturer while U.L.T. refers to the technology that englobes all the imaging portion (sensor + prism + filters + A/D converter + ...)

About your F10 / F11 question and according to Panasonic measurements, sensitivity is F11 at 1080/50i, and F10 at 1080/60i, hope this helps?

And with regard the upgrade at this moment this is not possible unfortunately. We'll keep you posted if there is any update

 

[Cees Mutsaers]

i am getting angrier and angrier the more I read statements like this on this site :

"The camera is a replacement for the old HPX 301/300. A nice but flawed camera. The rolling shutter in full HD mode was not good and there was a fair bit of noise in the blacks. This new camera is a massive improvement. But don’t take my word for it! Check out the video review below by…er, me! Also do check out Barry Green’s nice and techy review on DVX USER."

Suddenly the HPX300 sucks while half year ago all these guys (so-called experts) where raving about it.

 

[hotchkiss]

Bummer...

Bummer...

So the 370 and the 371 are pretty much now the same camera but here in the UK I will be paying around $13,500 for it at street prices. I paid $12,000 each for my 301's 11 months ago. The 301's are still set at that price and for the extra two stops of sensitivity on the 371 it is understandable why people in europe are a bit pissed at this as we pay premium prices all the time.

Why should we have to do this and if it is going to replaced on a yearly basis I might as well buy grey imports from the USA and take the risk regarding warranty!

Your prices are a lot higher in Euro-land (;-( ), but Panasonic is not to blame. Gotta love those all knowing bureaucrats of the EU. Buying grey market may indeed be the way to go. Add rising inflation and the debasement of the Euro (based on the bailouts of Greece and ? ), and the current price of 13,500 might be a bargain in a years time. Ditto for us here in the United States of Amnesia.

As for me, I'm getting off the merry-go-round and saving my money for a 2nd generation VDSLR or possibly a Red Scarlet - if they are actually released during my working career....;-)

 

[Mike Harvey]

Suddenly the HPX300 sucks while half year ago all these guys (so-called experts) where raving about it.

Nothing has changed about this camera and what was reported about it. I don't even own one, and I knew all that back when it was released. And nowhere did they say it sucked. They said it had flaws... which they always have said.

This should NEVER be about having the latest and greatest. Can the HPX300 adequately do what you bought it to do, and make you enough money doing it? Are you suddenly going to lose money now that the 370 is released?

My station is all P2, and I believe most of the cameras are HD (if they haven't already upgraded all of them). About a year ago, we hired "the pros from Dover" to come in and shoot our station promos for a new campaign we were doing. Even though we had new 1080p P2 cameras, they shot it with their own camera which was DVCProHD at 720p24... on tape. I pretty sure the camera was over a decade old. Didn't stop them from using it. And guess what? The footage looked great.

The fact that it wasn't the latest and greatest didn't stop them from making money with, and neither should it stop you. The fact you don't have the newest toy doesn't make what you do have worthless. Honestly, if you don't like it, you're more than welcome to give it to me (for free... though I'll spring for shipping). I'll put it to good use, I promise

 

[Cees Mutsaers]

I told that all the things like noise and rolling shutter artifacts where known before people bought this cam but all "experts" said rolling shuter artifacts is something inherently to CMOS and can not be improved. You have to adapt your shooting stile which is partly true (this argument was by way never said when Sony came with CMOS and Pana was still in CCD). In fact after using the 300 now for 4 months I conclude that you can use the cam only from tripod and the nice form factor is useless due these RS "flaws" as they are called now. Yes I will loose money because of this fast replacement since my cam is reduced in value now and it did not pay back yet. I am not a person who wants the latest technology but when I do buy it I expect that it will not be replaced so fast with the argument "the 300 was a flaw cam" . Than Pana should have waited and make a good cam in the first place.

Nothing has changed about this camera and what was reported about it. I don't even own one, and I knew all that back when it was released. And nowhere did they say it sucked. They said it had flaws... which they always have said.

This should NEVER be about having the latest and greatest. Can the HPX300 adequately do what you bought it to do, and make you enough money doing it? Are you suddenly going to lose money now that the 370 is released?

My station is all P2, and I believe most of the cameras are HD (if they haven't already upgraded all of them). About a year ago, we hired "the pros from Dover" to come in and shoot our station promos for a new campaign we were doing. Even though we had new 1080p P2 cameras, they shot it with their own camera which was DVCProHD at 720p24... on tape. I pretty sure the camera was over a decade old. Didn't stop them from using it. And guess what? The footage looked great.

The fact that it wasn't the latest and greatest didn't stop them from making money with, and neither should it stop you. The fact you don't have the newest toy doesn't make what you do have worthless. Honestly, if you don't like it, you're more than welcome to give it to me (for free... though I'll spring for shipping). I'll put it to good use, I promise

 

[dangerd]

Just to clarify (as to real pricing), I bought a 300 after it was out about a month. I did not get a discount. I believe that I paid 8500 usd.
I did not receive any free P2 cards, I had to buy mine.
Now Panasonic makes a "new" 370, which is really a 300 with the sensors fixed to work how they should have in the first place! I am not unhappy with my 300 it's a pretty good camera.
Not really sure if I have made my money back yet.

It would be nice if Panasonic would provide a upgrade path for the buyers of the 300, although they did not do this in the case of the 200/200a.

Red offered the full price of the Red One cameras to anyone who wanted to upgrade, although this is unprecedented for a camera company IT IS WHY RED USERS ARE SO LOYAL AND FANATIC ABOUT THEIR PRODUCT.

PANASONIC SHOULD TAKE A CUE FROM RED. ARE YOU WATCHING THIS FOURM PANASONIC?

I do not expect Panasonic to do anything to satisfy their loyal buyers as they are a giant corporation, but it would be nice if someone at Panasonic had the guts to at least address the issue either way to the people in this fourm.

I will continue to use my 300 for stock footage and it has been a good camera for that use but will also be shooting on my new 7D.

Next time I purchase a new video camera, if Panasonic does not address this issue one way or the other, they will not be in consideration.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[GaryNattrass]

Panasonic even made a video of how to shoot without skew and how we had to adhere to film techniques, now they release a fix for all these problems within 12 months so they have released a camera that was knowingly not fit for the purpose that it was intended for.

If they knew that it had problems then it should not have been released, look at the Toyota law suits and recall recently.

The 300 and 301 were marketed in the same way as the 370/371 why now should we trust that these models are fit for use as they are intended.

We may pay more due to the european laws here but that works two ways and I strongly feel that the 301 was not released as fit for its intended purpose and the appearance of the 371 within 12 months confirms that.

As has been seen Abel Cine and Philip Bloom have been chosen by panasonic to highlight these flaws in pre release cameras that were know by panasonic in the 300/301.

I sugest anyone in europe with a camera less that 12 months old e-mails panasonic and tells them that it is faulty and not fit for the purpose that is was intended as advertised on release and that the subsequent release of the 371 confirms this and is backed up with the evidence from Mr Bloom in his statements.