VaricamLT: Panasonic VariCam LT
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But you have to ask WHY the image quality fell short of what had been hoped for. Fundamentally, it wasn't because of 4/3 chip size as such - but it WAS because to make the project viable Panasonic used a lot of off the shelf, already existing technology, which was centred around 4/3, largely from the GH1. If.... *IF*.... they had purpose designed a video centric 4/3 chip specifically for the AF100 it would have been a different matter - but that would have vastly increased the price. The AF100 really has to be thought of as a DSLR in a more video-friendly housing. As such, the concept was clever, but what let it down was the long delay time between conception, announcement and actual sale. By the time it reached the shops, it was already starting to look stale.
OK, technology has moved on, and the DVX200 may be a sign of that. It's no longer necessary to line/column skip simply to read such a sensor at video framerates. But it still seems that 4/3 sensors are primarily designed for stills use, video secondary. Use such a sensor, and call the result "Varicam" and I think there is a huge danger of damaging the whole Varicam brand. Yes, it would be possible to custom design a new sensor of 4/3 size, optimised for video, say with a 4096x2160 photosite count - but I don't see that happening. If the forthcoming announcement is branded "Varicam", expect it to be s35. (Or yes, maybe even bigger?)
But to get even close to "exact same image quality" you're talking about an optimised for video new sensor. And even then it will inevitably have a sensitivity disadvantage due to smaller photosite sizes. I just don't see this being 4/3, but we'll see. My money is still on something like the F5 - the current Varicam as a one piece unit - and the big question will then be how much it costs.
bill totolo
Veteran
Do you think this is aimed at the owner operator with his own production company, or the DP/Shooter whose clients regularly rent ARRI/RED Sony/Canon cameras?
Main question is, can we lure producers away from the aforementioned cameras to make this a worthy investment, is Panasonic willing to promote the hell out of the camera?
Main question is, can we lure producers away from the aforementioned cameras to make this a worthy investment, is Panasonic willing to promote the hell out of the camera?
The Af100 was hardly a failure as a camera. I made many programs with it and continue to use it on occasion. Clients still like the image quality. I know that many others still use it and it has held up well. Yes, highlights can get blown out easily, but if you know what it is good at and not so good at, you can tailor your shooting to that. All cameras have shortcomings; the key is to know what they are and to work around them.
stoneinapond
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That would be my bet.
combatentropy
Veteran
How can the current Varicam 35 go for $55,000? Why would anyone go for that, when they can get half a dozen Sony FS7s, with money to spare?
Does the Varicam have any advantage besides 120 fps UHD? I've also heard mention of its dual ISO, which it says gives ISO 5000 cleanly. Not bad, but ISO 5000 is just 1.5 stops brighter than the FS7's native ISO of 2000.
I just don't get it. The best I can guess is that it's institutional inertia. A decade ago, it would have been a fair price. I guess I also don't get how Red sells any cameras anymore at those prices or even why any C300's sell anymore in light of the Sony FS5.
I feel a bit abrupt, but I don't mean to make anyone mad. It's just I really feel like that kid in the story of the emperor's new clothes.
Does the Varicam have any advantage besides 120 fps UHD? I've also heard mention of its dual ISO, which it says gives ISO 5000 cleanly. Not bad, but ISO 5000 is just 1.5 stops brighter than the FS7's native ISO of 2000.
I just don't get it. The best I can guess is that it's institutional inertia. A decade ago, it would have been a fair price. I guess I also don't get how Red sells any cameras anymore at those prices or even why any C300's sell anymore in light of the Sony FS5.
I feel a bit abrupt, but I don't mean to make anyone mad. It's just I really feel like that kid in the story of the emperor's new clothes.
stoneinapond
Veteran
Perhaps those that don't care for Sony's color science?
Maybe the question is whether anybody IS going for it, at that price?
Which may explain what is to be announced. A way of cutting the cost without being seen to actually cut the cost, if you see what I mean..... Bring out a new model.....Whatever the s35 sales have been, I'd be pretty certain the sales of the other front end (the 2/3" version) have been far less. At which point it has to be asked what point there is in having the dockable concept, if it's always an s35 front docked to the same back? Which is why I feel the idea of the single piece s35 front end/recorder back end is likely. No fundamental new technology necessary (so fairly cheap to do) and a chance to say "by simplifying the design, we are able to only charge you....."
So the big question then is how much will the market pay, if we do assume specs of fundamentally the current s35 with integrated recorder? I'd suggest for success it needs to be somewhere near half what you state for current price - about $20-25,000.
Jaime Valles
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I agree completely.
I don't think they have to design anything new. Use a smaller section of the current S35 sensor in the Varicam 35. Just like RED is doing with their Dragon sensors in the 8K Weapon vs the Raven. They both share the same sensor, but Raven uses a smaller cut from the same sensor wafers (if I understand correctly, as I am not a sensor expert in any way).
That said, I don't actually believe they will release that. It's probably a ~$20K camera designed to compete against the C300 Mk. II and the like. But I sure can dream!
Also, I didn't mean that the AF100 was a failure. I know lots of folks continue to use them as their HD workhorse cameras and deliver good results. But when you put its image quality up against other (much cheaper) cameras of the time, there's just no contest.
Run&Gun
Veteran
Maybe.... It's the S35 head with a swappable mount(a la Amira) like they should have made in the first place. With a global shutter(if they're smart).
As as far as price goes, I've talked to some people I know that own rental houses and Panny is and has been selling to the rental houses for about half of MSRP. If they had come out of the gate doing that for the owner/operators too, like they did with the "trade-in program" with the second gen VariCam, they could have possibly had a nice chunk of the market again.
As as far as price goes, I've talked to some people I know that own rental houses and Panny is and has been selling to the rental houses for about half of MSRP. If they had come out of the gate doing that for the owner/operators too, like they did with the "trade-in program" with the second gen VariCam, they could have possibly had a nice chunk of the market again.
The hierarchy of sensor sizes is pretty clearly goes from small to large - you begin with the smartphone size and end up with the medium format. And that places MFT below s35/APS-C, which is itself below full frame, which is below medium format. Under the current price/value breakdown, MFT is basically entry level photography/video and, indeed, Sony could have made a BSI 16:9 8.8 MPX MFT sensor ... except they've moved onto the s35 and FF themselves and what they make for Olympus is definitely stills first product. And Panasonic hasn't brought out an original sensor in a while, so all it has left is to lead on the value scale and they seem to have whiffed out on that front too with the Varicams (GH4 was obviously a huge hit for them).
And the variable aspect model, i.e., LS-300 isn't taking the video world by the storm either.
PS. There's that Leica/Pansonic cam, of course, - full frame and s35 center crop for video.
That's called "wholesale" and the 50% margin is what photo-video gear gets under a cartel controlled market.
By releasing a camera using all the R&D from the Varicam 35, but specced lower, Panasonic could be making a bigger return on their investment in sensor/camera tech. Same as the C100s having C300 sensors, ect. It'd be a shame for all that great tech to go the way of the F65, 'cause it's clear that they thought the whole thing through.
Anyway, the other thing to remember is that the Varicam 35 is aimed at the high end Alexa market. It's to be bought by rental houses firstly, not owner operators, and the price reflects that. It'd be interesting to see if this is just another front attachment, because it looks like the rear module alone costs around 20K, so it wouldn't be much of a price reduction. I'd be excited for a FS7/C300 mk2 competitor.
That's a bit ambiguous though, since every sale of a camera has to also go towards paying off the R&D costs associated with it, not just production.
It does make sense, it's actually easier to have the handle be usable when you cover the camera with all the cables, motors and modules that end up stuck to it on a bigger production.
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I don't think that really answers it though. Certainly not if we assume *ALL* photo-video gear is subject to a 50% margin? Because then you'd expect the rental houses to also get the half MSRP (the wholesale price) on all other such equipment as well?
So they pay $25,000 for a camera with list price $50,000 - and only $12,500 for one at list $25,000.
What that boils down to is if we think a list price of $50,000 is twice as much as it realistically should be, the rental houses will think a wholesale price of $25,000 is twice as much as it realistically should be!!!
That wouldn't work. For QFHD we are talking about 3840x2160 photosites in an s35 area with the Varicam sensor. Use a centre crop to correspond to the area of 16:9 4/3 and it must mean roughly half the photosite count, so somewhere around 2680x1508.
Fine for HD - but not for 4K (QFHD), far too few photosites. Sorry, but if it needs to be 4K on 4/3, you'd need to still have 3840x2160 sites, just in a smaller area.
sean007davis
Active member
Having just worked with the varicam 35. if I felt that the rental market would help pay it off I'd drop the $55 k for it with no regrets it's in a class of it's own, and quite a few DPs are picking it instead of the Arri Alexa when 4k acquisition is required.
If the Varicam LT is the same sensor or at least same MoJo as the VAricam 35 at under $20k I'll buy one.
My only wish would be that it have some sort of IMS (interchangeable lens mount system).
i don't think Panasonic intends to degrade the Varicam badge the way sony did Cinealta. So It won't be a "me too" price point camera.
If the Varicam LT is the same sensor or at least same MoJo as the VAricam 35 at under $20k I'll buy one.
My only wish would be that it have some sort of IMS (interchangeable lens mount system).
i don't think Panasonic intends to degrade the Varicam badge the way sony did Cinealta. So It won't be a "me too" price point camera.
I am talking about the variable costs (per unit production and distribution), without the fixed/overhead.
The retailers make a higher profit percentage on the higher priced units than on the lower but they move more lower priced units (price effecting the demand negatively). I have read that the Lens Rentals folks anticipate the rental product to have no more than a 20-week lifespan. If so, a rental establishment needs to get its desired profits within those twenty weeks. There are other variables, obviously, but that's the general rule of thumb.
I would say that's in the ballpark.
I think that's true to the extent that, as I mentioned above, a given retailer won't sell as many Ferrari cars as he will Toyota Camry. I knew a number of people in the car trade and the highest earning opportunities were in the middle of the line - Camry, Accord, F-150, Chevy trucks - because of the turnover/number of units sold. The margins were obviously much higher on a Mercedes or a Porsche but those jobs were often feast-or-famine. I knew people who sold high end audio and that was a very tough way of earning a living.
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