Using a manual Metabones Nikon G adapter or their manual Nikon G SpeedBooster adapter gives you completely smooth aperture control with any modern Nikon lens, from wide open to the smallest aperture the lens has.
GH4 Panasonic GH5 coming in 2017
- Thread starter Dan Keeble
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Using a manual Metabones Nikon G adapter or their manual Nikon G SpeedBooster adapter gives you completely smooth aperture control with any modern Nikon lens, from wide open to the smallest aperture the lens has.
These are just general ponderings on Panasonic's lineup.
The GH4 V-log update is off to a horrendous start. There's no replacement for AF100. The 12-35 F/2.8 lens is on sale with a 20% discount. To me, this suggests a few major missteps from the company. Normally, this would motivate the executives in charge to "make good", as it were, and release a product that finds wide acceptance with its base. Naturally, in this business, one can't hurry and release a model with too many bugs - yes, it happens all the time but Panasonic has generally been forthright with its promises - but that now there's a moral imperative for the folks in Osaka to create a very positive impression of whatever their next cam will be. In other words, a marginal improvement might not do.
The GH4 V-log update is off to a horrendous start. There's no replacement for AF100. The 12-35 F/2.8 lens is on sale with a 20% discount. To me, this suggests a few major missteps from the company. Normally, this would motivate the executives in charge to "make good", as it were, and release a product that finds wide acceptance with its base. Naturally, in this business, one can't hurry and release a model with too many bugs - yes, it happens all the time but Panasonic has generally been forthright with its promises - but that now there's a moral imperative for the folks in Osaka to create a very positive impression of whatever their next cam will be. In other words, a marginal improvement might not do.
Bassman2003
Veteran
It looks to me that Panasonic finds itself in a sort of 'no man's land' right now. They don't want to be like Canon nor do they want to be like Black Magic. Their broadcast cash cow has gone to market and they are backing M4/3rds which is sort of a fringe (have to convince to use) format in the cinema world. They are playing catch-up to Alexa and the C-300 II with their high end offering and their new mid-level offering is very niche. I see their only strong products as being the GH4/5 and the PX270 and they are dropping in price.
What is it going to take? Who knows because whatever it takes it might not be profitable anyway...
What is it going to take? Who knows because whatever it takes it might not be profitable anyway...
Exactly. I for one, am not interested in another 1/3 inch chip camera. My HPX300 is still ticking and making me money, but I don't intend to add another 1/3 chipper unless my 300 goes belly up. Meanwhile, using the GH4 for anything other than feature films/commercials, and interviews makes a prostate exam enjoyable by comparison. Their "backing" of M4/3 seems more like tentative mild enthusiasm... maybe, sort of.
Regarding M43, I get the feeling they are of this mindset: " I'm not looking for a committed relationship right now, can we just be friends and see what happens?"
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Brandon Freeman
Well-known member
I can't believe it's so hard to see what would be profitable. It's simple - good honest dynamic range, lowlight capabilities, minimal rolling shutter, better internal recording - these are all the things everyone constantly talks about. We've come far - 4K with minimal moire - but you can't stay on that for long!
There's a reason why folks high up in corporate offices in charge of general strategery make beaucoup bucks. MFT has been around since 2008, when it was considered a reasonably large size sensor, far superior to the 1/3rd and 1/2's and so on. But, as the time marches on and the technology advances, MFT slipped from the middleweight and the light heavyweight class down to a welterweight. (how's my boxing analogy?) As such, the prices have dropped precipitously, with G7 kits arguably the best buy among the consumer level hybrids. The problem for Panasonic is that, by 2015-16, competition is offering larger sensors in what was previously the spot where AF-100 class cameras were able to hold their own. Remember how folks were clamoring for AF-200? Well, with A7SII, A7RII and FS5 out, how many of the same folks would still purchase an MFT based AF-200? And, this is what leaves MFT as that "welterweight". And people who buy welterweight cameras rarely buy the heavyweight (at least, price wise) lenses. Thus the slacking demand for the 12-35 F/2.8.
Now, the company smartly switched to the fixed lens cameras, hoping that the products like DVX200 can be a very useful jack-of-all-trades but premium ILC niche has gone to full frame. And there, Panasonic has got nada. They can still make a ton of money on the low end of the biz but the enthusiast and pro users want and can afford something bigger and better.
So, what's the next step? Well, to go back to the beginning of this post - this is why the corporate bigwigs make big money. I expect an s35 model, since many MFT lenses could work with APS-C, in a near future. And more fixed lens models.
Now, the company smartly switched to the fixed lens cameras, hoping that the products like DVX200 can be a very useful jack-of-all-trades but premium ILC niche has gone to full frame. And there, Panasonic has got nada. They can still make a ton of money on the low end of the biz but the enthusiast and pro users want and can afford something bigger and better.
So, what's the next step? Well, to go back to the beginning of this post - this is why the corporate bigwigs make big money. I expect an s35 model, since many MFT lenses could work with APS-C, in a near future. And more fixed lens models.
I think the only way this would work for Panasonic would be to implement something like JVC did with their GY-LS300 where you've got a Super35 sensor in a camera with a Micro 4/3 lens mount. Micro 4/3 is their niche that sets them apart, but they need to up their game which is likely dependent on their new sensor tech coming to fruition. If the sensor tech works out they could have a Micro 4/3 15 F-stop camera with good low-light performance and low noise. ( I don't see the sensor size as a big drawback provided they can deliver the goods with Micro 4/3 sensors )
Becoming another also ran in the Super35 arena isn't going to do anything for Panasonic.
mikeyeung5
Member
is uhs-ii fast enough to record 4k 60p 4:2:2 ?
combatentropy
Veteran
I would be fine with anything between S16 and 135, as long as it had global shutter.
In the film days of yore, different "sensor" sizes meant big jumps in image quality, but even the Blackmagic Pocket looks fine to me.
Something like the new FS5 of course would be ideal, with its 4K S35 sensor. But I'm pretty fine with the imagery out of the Blackmagic Pocket and Digital Bolex D16. It's just their price and ergonomics are just not there for me to pull the trigger (since video production isn't my full-time job right now). But take a look at the new Sony PXW-X70:
- 1" sensor (so a little bigger than S16)
- 10-bit 4:2:2
- 960x540 3.5" flip-out screen
- XLRs!!!
- ND filters!!!
- built-in 12x lens
- $2,000
Lop off that lens, and add global shutter, and I would run to buy one (as long as the price stayed near the same).
The sensor is actually something ridiculous like 20 megapixels. So this camera actually does 4K. But even traded in with a decent 2K sensor like Sony's IMX174 or the one in the Blackmagic Micro would be fine --- if the price kept around $2,000.
I admit that this is not everyone's dream A camera. But I know you would buy it as your B camera. And I would buy it as my A camera and happily make many a video for Youtube or whatever while other people vex themselves over whether they need 4K or 6K for true 4K, or whatever, 8K...
How did we get here in a thread about the GH5? Oh yeah, somebody mentioned sensor size, and I guess I've got a hair trigger when it comes to pleading for the aformentioned camera to be trotted out by someone.
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Pentax/Ricoh is teasing their new full frame camera on their own site. The expected release date is Spring, 2016 and the expectations are for it to have the "old" 36 MPX Sony sensor, found in D810 and A7R (rather than the 42 MPX sensor from A7RII). Now, aside of their Medium Format 645 series, Pentax is generally considered a mass market company, with their top DSLR K3 (24 MPX APS-C) going for under $900 body only. Currently, A7R is retailing for $1,900, so one assumes that Pentax FF will run substantially less. Video features haven't been announced but I figure the worst case scenario is that this is going to be a full frame, high megapixel camera in the $1,300 range. And that puts an additional pressure on GH5 to have really high class video because it isn't likely to keep up in the stills race.*
*Of course, GH5 could theoretically have a pixel-shifting sensor, which will let it claim higher res stills.
As to comparison with LS-300 with its 82% (or is it 86% MFT crop?) -- in 2016 and beyond, this could be solved with the oversampled 4K of ~ 13-18 MPX in s35 and less in the MFT crop. The problem with LS300 is that it becomes a 6'ish MPX in MFT, still sufficient for most productions but, officially, below the 4K threshold. Other than that, Panasonic can just buy the latest off-the-shelf APS-C line and then work off that. In an AF-100 size model, the heat generated by the oversampling should be easily dealt with by a combination of heat sinks, fans, ducts and bigger batteries.
As to fixed lens products, I am old enough to recall (or is it "young enough not to forget"?) old Panasonic VHS-C Palmcorders. That's where digital is going also.
*Of course, GH5 could theoretically have a pixel-shifting sensor, which will let it claim higher res stills.
As to comparison with LS-300 with its 82% (or is it 86% MFT crop?) -- in 2016 and beyond, this could be solved with the oversampled 4K of ~ 13-18 MPX in s35 and less in the MFT crop. The problem with LS300 is that it becomes a 6'ish MPX in MFT, still sufficient for most productions but, officially, below the 4K threshold. Other than that, Panasonic can just buy the latest off-the-shelf APS-C line and then work off that. In an AF-100 size model, the heat generated by the oversampling should be easily dealt with by a combination of heat sinks, fans, ducts and bigger batteries.
As to fixed lens products, I am old enough to recall (or is it "young enough not to forget"?) old Panasonic VHS-C Palmcorders. That's where digital is going also.
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Bassman2003
Veteran
I think fixed lens is a worthy pursuit but f4 lenses on smaller sensors will not get the attention of pro folks. I also think the GH5 has a real place but like Samsung, Panasonic has to start pulling out some stops as Black Magic is eroding all lot of the ground these cameras are standing upon. Yes, the BM cameras are more expensive but they will come down and lets face it, 4K RAW just can't be messed with.
I do not see an AF-200 model in the future as it will get harder to sell this type of camera going forward. It is almost like Panasonic knows they made a bit of a tactical error going 100% m4/3rds. The smaller format works if it is "cheaper" and smaller but those two definitions are much different today. Just my opinion.
I do not see an AF-200 model in the future as it will get harder to sell this type of camera going forward. It is almost like Panasonic knows they made a bit of a tactical error going 100% m4/3rds. The smaller format works if it is "cheaper" and smaller but those two definitions are much different today. Just my opinion.
I think that either Panasonic was crazy innovative with the gh4 and they made some waves... or was it just a home run swing but they really aren't wanting to push like Sony. Sony is pushing tech very fast and Panny is looking more like Cannon every day. I just hope they don't start thinking we can deliever so so cameras because people are already invested in to the 4/3s platform because that will just kill off the success that the gh4 has had.
OR... Panny is just waiting for the market to shift and left everyone come out with tech and at the next NAB they make the features of the gh5 better than whats on the market
Who knows but I sure hope its the latter because I love the 4/3s format but I hate what they have done with this whole VLog bull crap.
OR... Panny is just waiting for the market to shift and left everyone come out with tech and at the next NAB they make the features of the gh5 better than whats on the market
Who knows but I sure hope its the latter because I love the 4/3s format but I hate what they have done with this whole VLog bull crap.If Panasonic keeps buying sensors from outside (i.e., Sony), they have a much greater chance of being a step behind, as Sony usually keeps the latest and the greatest for itself. Of course, it's possible for Panasonic to develop something in-house or to work with a non-DSLR vendor - i.e., mostly a smartphone or auto oriented manufacturer like Aptina, Fairchild, STM or even Samsung - for a special, jointly developed piece. At least, unlike BMD, Panny can buy in volume.
One important technology for all MFT members is the Backside Illumination, which helps raise the ISO by a couple of stops. Sony (A7RII) and Samsung (NX1) have both been using it lately, so it should be available on an open market. The next step is to try and narrow the dynamic range gap between the compressed image and the photo Raw, which is currently around 2 stops. That is dependent on signal processing, the new sensors and new chips that all have a greater ability that what was available in 2014. Finally, there are purely electronic and software implementations, such the codec and the feature set.
And, my summary is this, if GH5 is DVX 200 with an interchangeable lens and a GH4 body, then it will not match the excitement of GH4. Its success in the market will then more depend on its price and features rather than on the superiority of performance. At the moment, GH4 (and NX1) are retailing for around $1,200, if one includes various store discounts and the included accessories. To get back to the $1,700 price tag, GH5 will need the best of what's available in the MFT arena. Or, alternatively, it could become a great deal for all the enthusiasts at this new price point but much less of a pro product visavis its competition. If I were to place a bet, my guess would still be on "DVX200 in the GH4 body". It'll be a solid offering but substantially below the class offered in A7SII and A7RII. And priced accordingly.
One important technology for all MFT members is the Backside Illumination, which helps raise the ISO by a couple of stops. Sony (A7RII) and Samsung (NX1) have both been using it lately, so it should be available on an open market. The next step is to try and narrow the dynamic range gap between the compressed image and the photo Raw, which is currently around 2 stops. That is dependent on signal processing, the new sensors and new chips that all have a greater ability that what was available in 2014. Finally, there are purely electronic and software implementations, such the codec and the feature set.
And, my summary is this, if GH5 is DVX 200 with an interchangeable lens and a GH4 body, then it will not match the excitement of GH4. Its success in the market will then more depend on its price and features rather than on the superiority of performance. At the moment, GH4 (and NX1) are retailing for around $1,200, if one includes various store discounts and the included accessories. To get back to the $1,700 price tag, GH5 will need the best of what's available in the MFT arena. Or, alternatively, it could become a great deal for all the enthusiasts at this new price point but much less of a pro product visavis its competition. If I were to place a bet, my guess would still be on "DVX200 in the GH4 body". It'll be a solid offering but substantially below the class offered in A7SII and A7RII. And priced accordingly.
Hi DLD, just a couple of points: I started following Pentax recently because I finally realized that they actually sell excellent cameras with lots of class-leading features, for very good prices. Everything that I've read so far in terms of analysis (guesses, I suppose) put the new Pentax FF camera (being announced in about two weeks) at over $2000. I think that's fairly accurate (I've heard even as much as $3000). If you look at the current market of actual DSLRs (with a mirror and all that), they start at $1300 for the entry-level Canon 6D which is already several years old. The A7R is also a few years old.
This new Pentax is expected to be a top of the line, premium/pro model, from all I've read. It will probably compete with Canon 5D ($2500) and Nikon D810 ($3000), but with features that even they can't touch. For example, it will most likely have IBIS, and pixel-shift resolution, along with their innovative pixel-shift, on-demand, simulated OLPF (all of which the K3 II that you mentioned already has). On the other hand, Pentax is known for not being very strong on video features, at all. They seem to be behind pretty much everyone else in the DSLR market in that respect. In other words, I don't think that the Pentax FF will put much pressure on a GH5, at least not yet. By the time that a GH5 ships, it's possible that this new Pentax may already be discounted, but I don't imagine that it will have reached anywhere near $1500 by that point.
Even if the Pentax were to be close to the $1500 mark by that point the GH line still has unique abilities in terms of Hybrid video/stills cameras that are still class-leading, so I imagine that there would still not be much competition between those two. I think it will be more competition for Canon, Nikon, and Sony FF models instead.
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News from 2013 : Fuji and Panasonic’s New Organic Sensor Boasts Insane 29.2 Stop Dynamic Range
This is the sensor tech that is going to change everything for the Micro 4/3 format when Panasonic is finally ready to start making cameras that use it. I have no idea how long it takes to go from the lab to actually using tech in a new product, but boy would it be nice if this new sensor was part of the GH5 launch. :love4:
combatentropy
Veteran
The corresponding press release says 88 dB of dynamic range, which is 14 2/3 stops, not 29.2.
Hey, Shenan. Thanks for the update. Pentax has a very odd lineup with some very budget friendly APS-C's on the low end that eventually top out at ~ $1,000, and then 645Z, a $9,000 MF model. It's as if Honda made a Civic and an NSX with nothing in between. IMO, their deals with Sony keep them away from actively pursuing the video market, which is probably also the reason for the Nikon D800/810 series not having 4K (this may change with D5, whenever it comes out).
My line of thinking was that Sony wants a medium (as close to $1,000 as possible) priced FF camera and, if they can't do this with their own brand, they don't mind selling the sensor tech to someone who can. Right now 6D, ancient by the digital camera standards, is the price leader. D610 is next and D750 is at $2,000. IMO, Pentax would really have to offer something major to be priced higher than the Nikon and Canon FF units. Their FF lens selection is also rather limited. But, you're right. Let's see what the official release says.
From the PetaPixel link...
So if they've got this right, it's 14.6 stops of dynamic range over ( highlights ) and 14.6 stops of dynamic range under ( shadows ), giving a total range of 29.2 F-stops.
Looking on the web I found a Sony White Paper on Dynamic Range that states that the best CMOS sensors have a dynamic range of only 60 dB, so perhaps PetaPixel is correct on how it's interpretting this 29.2 F-stops of dynamic range.
( and if they aren't then this still represents almost 50 percent more dynamic range than the best CMOS sensors according to Sony )
mikeyeung5
Member
All i wanted is two native ISO Just like Vaircam 35
Hey, DLD. Your line of thinking makes sense too. They typically seem to release two models in each cycle: a pro model with all the features, and an "entry level" model that is still packed with features which make them competitive with other manufacturers' mid-range models. All of them are usually cheaper than any competitors within the same category in terms of features/price, but the question is will they make their first FF model the premium/pro offering, or the "entry level" one? An entry-level one might start at $1400/$1500 to compete with 6D/D610, but I think that the premium model would start closer to $2000, to compete at least with D750 and undercut 5D3/D810. It will certainly be interesting to find out what they choose to do in two weeks!
Sorry for the threadjacking, folks! This relates at least tangentially to the GH5!
Sorry for the threadjacking, folks! This relates at least tangentially to the GH5!