P2 Cards - got me again @#$%!

[Mitch_Ives]

Yep, transferring on a PowerBook can cause these glitches. Don't use a PowerBook to transfer whenever possible, use a PC laptop and you'll get flawless transfers.

Barry, I'd like to see some more objectivity here. There is no proof that a Mac problem exists. I see some evidence for concern, but not any universal proof. There are too many people who don't have it. I'd like to see more focus on the HVX firmware versions, card firmware versions, etc.

I'm beginning to think that Phil Hodgett's was right when he said "boards are like hospitals... the only people that show up tend to be sick". Nobody ever posts and says Hi, no problems here.

This Mac thing may or may not be out there. It just seems odd that so many Mac people aren't getting it. I have early HVX's and early 8GB cards, do more P2 than most people and have NEVER seen this once. Why is that? If this is such a problem, how come the three guys and six cameras we use every week have never seen this once? It's like a UFO... everyone says it's out there, but how come the rest of us don't ever see it?

Boards are great Barry, but they can also spread "wives tales" farther and wider, and give them more significance than any other method. They can in fact appear to make something rare appear to be epidemic.

Other than Shane, the Cow P2 forum doesn't have this epidemic spreading. There are a lot of sharp P2 Mac users up there. Makes you wonder why?

 

[Mitch_Ives]

Is the Powerbook glitch problem specific to a certain kind of transfer or does it happen either way? In other words, are we talking about it only happening when using the "drag P2 contents to a folder via the finder" method, or when using the "Import Panasonic P2" window in FCP, or both? Thus far I've only used the FCP-based method (in v5.1.2) and have had no issues, but I haven't done a great many transfers at this point.

Our method is to transfer to disk using the finder. Then we import into FCP 5.1.2. No problems ever, and without offending anyone, we've done more of this than many of the people who are reporting these problems. Zip, nada, zero.

 

[Mitch_Ives]

You could, but to get it to the Mac you're going to have to use an external drive anyway. In projects that I've done which were destined for the Mac, I always just use an external FAT32 drive. It's effortless, painless, easy, and reliable.

In fact, I'll frequently copy to both the internal and external drive. It takes no more time; you can copy to both drives in the same amount of time as to copy to just one drive. But that way I have data redundancy and protection in case the client does something silly like leave the drive on an airplane or drop it or format it or whatever.

Barry,

I'd love to hear how you're doing that? Using a PC formated Fat32 drive on a Mac generally reduces the speed of transfer by a huge amount.

 

[TedRR]

Barry, I'd like to see some more objectivity here.

Mitch, Barry does an excellent job of being objective, on the HVX as well as OS's.
He's just calling it like he see's it with all the time he spends here.
Call it "profiling", but simularities start adding up.

It might not be the MAC, but some other common thread, memory, other applications some people tend to have exclusively on a MAC etc. I'd give him a little more credit for his opinion....JMHO. :beer:

 

[Mitch_Ives]

Mitch, Barry does an excellent job of being objective, on the HVX as well as OS's.
He's just calling it like he see's it with all the time he spends here.
Call it "profiling", but simularities start adding up.

It might not be the MAC, but some other common thread, memory, other applications some people tend to have exclusively on a MAC etc. I'd give him a little more credit for his opinion....JMHO. :beer:

Ted, I know Barry... that's why I made my post. He knows I'm not disparaging him. I also sent him a private message with some additional thoughts.

Respect for Barry aside, the fact remains, and Barry will admit it, he's no Mac expert. I on the other hand am. I spent all afternoon on the phone with every HVX user in my area and couldn't find anyone who had experienced this. Kinda strange, don't you think?

I think it's time to cast our net into some other waters. Everyone who has this problem, please post your full Mac configuration (Machine model, OS version, QT version, FCP version). Also post your firmware version in your HVX and what size card this is. That way we can take this seriously and look for some common denominators.

 

[hotchkiss]

No, it's just my imagination...

No, it's just my imagination...

Ted, I know Barry... that's why I made my post. He knows I'm not disparaging him. I also sent him a private message with some additional thoughts.

Respect for Barry aside, the fact remains, and Barry will admit it, he's no Mac expert. I on the other hand am. I spent all afternoon on the phone with every HVX user in my area and couldn't find anyone who had experienced this. Kinda strange, don't you think?

I think it's time to cast our net into some other waters. Everyone who has this problem, please post your full Mac configuration (Machine model, OS version, QT version, FCP version). Also post your firmware version in your HVX and what size card this is. That way we can take this seriously and look for some common denominators.

Gee, umm... I live in downtown Phoenix and I've had the problem with my Mac and the P2 card. Consequently , I did not receive a call from you. When you say that you called "every HVX user in my area"- you may want to qualify that comment, or get a larger Rolodex.

I love my Mac as much (and maybe more) than the next guy but SOME Mac users and apparently NO PC users are having the problem. Barry has never cast the Mac issue as widely as you have implied. He's been nothing but fair and reaasoned with his comments on the matter, and frankly alot more constructive in his attempts to identify and find the solution for the problem. Being overly defensive about Macs in regard to the matter does nothing to address the fact that some HVX users with Macs are having , or have had this problem. I am most defiintely one of them.

see: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=86844

If that still frame looks perfectly fine to you, then we definitely have a problem.

You've spent several posts saying that the problem doesn't exist or is the , "old wives tales".... "forum boards are like hospitals" yada yada yada, and then you write the last paragraph suggesting we find a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

Which is it ?

 

[Barry_Green]

I am an ex-computer programmer, having spent about 15 years programming some of the most graphic-intensive applications (video games) and not at a small level; Westwood Studios was a videogame powerhouse and I was one of the lead programmers on one of the fastest-selling games in history, Command & Conquer: Red Alert.

I bring that up only to point out that I am approaching this from a bug-finding perspective. A programmer's job is to put together code that works (10% of the job) and then spend the next 90% of his time finding and fixing the bugs that inevitably happen. And very rarely do we get treated to a bug that is 100% repeatable; usually it is the intermittent bugs that cause us premature hair loss etc.

So I am approaching this Mac issue as from a programmer's perspective. And I say out loud that I am 100% convinced this is an issue that only affects Macs, that it is a rare issue, and that it must be fixed. Those are my absolutes. And I'm not talking about the "FCP says clips are corrupt when they're not" bug, and I'm not talking about the other issues (like the P2 Store not mounting all volumes). I'm talking solely and exclusively about what I call "the glitch", as hotchkiss has pointed out a very extreme example of.

I've seen this glitch reported by dozens of users, on various boards (including the Cow). It's real. It exists. And it is rare. And it is NOT in FCP, that I can guarantee, because it also happens in P2 Log.

I don't know how it will get fixed; as Mitch points out, I'm no Mac expert. If I still had my programming chops, and a Mac, I'll tell you the first thing I'd do: I'd write a program that copies P2 cards over to a Mac hard disk, then does a byte-by-byte comparison back against the card, and then erases the copy and repeats. And execute that about a thousand times. And for everyone who has experienced the glitch, ask them to run it as well. Sooner or later we'll come up with a pattern.

Denying it's a problem is silly and counterproductive. What's productive is to start narrowing down who's got it and who doesn't, and what you're doing that's different.

It would be FANTASTIC if hotchkiss and Mitch could get together and put some time into determining what it is that Mitch does differently than hotchkiss. Here we have a perfect example; someone who's had it, and someone who has the skills and expertise to hopefully diagnose it. If we could narrow it down to something like daisy-chained firewire peripherals, or a certain version of the OS, or running certain apps like virus checkers or spam filters or -- well, anything! Anything would help.

The only thing that doesn't help is when people say "never happens to me." It's good that it never happens to you, sure, but it doesn't help those people to whom it *is* happening.

So let's get some dialogue going, and ideally, let's get the users together, and get to the bottom of this.

Please.

 

[Alvise Tedesco]

I'd write a program that copies P2 cards over to a Mac hard disk, then does a byte-by-byte comparison back against the card, and then erases the copy and repeats

Sorry I chime in. Also I actually never used P2. Wasn't P2 Genie (P2 log?) supposed to do exactly that?

 

[Mitch_Ives]

Gee, umm... I live in downtown Phoenix and I've had the problem with my Mac and the P2 card. Consequently , I did not receive a call from you. When you say that you called "every HVX user in my area"- you may want to qualify that comment, or get a larger Rolodex.

Thanks for the chuckle. I should think the answer is obvious... I've never heard of you, even though I'm very active in this market. You seem to be suggesting that you're "a big player", so perhaps you should introduce yourself.

Being overly defensive about Macs in regard to the matter does nothing to address the fact that some HVX users with Macs are having , or have had this problem. I am most defiintely one of them.

It's obvious that some of you are experiencing this problem... it's also equally obvious that many of us are not. Hopefully at some point we'll actually start researching what those that are having the problem are doing differently than those that are not?

You've spent several posts saying that the problem doesn't exist or is the , "old wives tales".... "forum boards are like hospitals" yada yada yada, and then you write the last paragraph suggesting we find a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

Which is it ?

No I have not. It's clear the problem is out there. What isn't clear is whether or not it's being caused by something those people are doing different than the rest of us. Barry has agreed that it is rare, so don't make it sound like it's universal and rare not to have it.

 

[Barry_Green]

I'm glad Mitch is in here and is taking a look at this; hopefully he can help dig to the bottom of the problem and figure out what's going on. I have the utmost respect for Mitch, he knows the HVX and the Mac very well, and is probably just the shot-in-the-arm that we need to get to the bottom of this.

I'd sure like to see if there are any users nearby who are encountering the problem, who would be willing to get together and review each others' workflow. If someone's encountering the problem, let us know what it is that you do -- especially anything that might be out of the ordinary, such as connecting your camera to the computer through a firewire hub, or anything like that.

What we need is some empirical scientific evidence and data, without any emotion attached.

Wasn't P2 Genie (P2 log?) supposed to do exactly that?

Well, maybe eventually, but not yet -- it doesn't do verification yet.

 

[Mitch_Ives]

I'd sure like to see if there are any users nearby who are encountering the problem, who would be willing to get together and review each others' workflow. If someone's encountering the problem, let us know what it is that you do -- especially anything that might be out of the ordinary, such as connecting your camera to the computer through a firewire hub, or anything like that.

What we need is some empirical scientific evidence and data, without any emotion attached.

Sound like I need to meet up with Hotchkiss, since he clearly has a nasty version of this problem. Maybe he can import from my cards and see it happen. Then I can compare it to the imported footage from my drive. I agree, we need to start somewhere...

 

[hotchkiss]

Thanks for the chuckle. I should think the answer is obvious... I've never heard of you, even though I'm very active in this market. You seem to be suggesting that you're "a big player", so perhaps you should introduce yourself.




It's obvious that some of you are experiencing this problem... it's also equally obvious that many of us are not. Hopefully at some point we'll actually start researching what those that are having the problem are doing differently than those that are not?




No I have not. It's clear the problem is out there. What isn't clear is whether or not it's being caused by something those people are doing different than the rest of us. Barry has agreed that it is rare, so don't make it sound like it's universal and rare not to have it.

Mitch,

Given the tenor of your posts ( and the little quip above) , chest beating appears to be your domain- please don't project your preoccupations upon me. "Big player", the implications made and the corresponding quotation marks are wholy your creation.

My comments were quite clearly in regard to the claim that you called any and all Mac/P2 users in your area, and that the problem was non-existent. Downtown Phoenix is certainly in your area. I use macs and P2 and I did not recieve a call from your polling service- and yes I had the 'glitch". My identity, length of time using Macs, or status (big player or otherwise) is irrelevant to the technical issues at hand. For whatever reason, you appear to be fixated on the former to the detriment of the latter.

In case you missed my use of the term "SOME" in relation to Mac / P2 users having the problem, please read the post again. Failing that, break out ye olde Websters and look the word up.

In regards to universal claims about the issue being made, your dismissive comments about those having/ had the issue are the only universal comments being made in this thread.

 

[Mitch_Ives]

Mitch, My comments were quite clearly in regard to the claim that you called any and all Mac/P2 users in your area, and that the problem was non-existent. Downtown Phoenix is certainly in your area.

I never said "any and all"... you're attempting to put words in my mouth. I said (here's the quote ) "I spent all afternoon on the phone with every HVX user in my area and couldn't find anyone who had experienced this". I said in my area, which is North Scottsdale. Downtown Phoenix is 60 miles away from here, and given that the valley has some 6 million people, no one knows everyone. Since I made the statement, I and I alone know what it means. Any attempt to redefine it's meaning would require arrogance on the part of the revisionist.

In regards to universal claims about the issue being made, your dismissive comments about those having/ had the issue are the only universal comments being made in this thread.

Hotchkiss you're mistaken. I never took issue with people having it. I took issue with the notion that it is a universal problem. That's why I asked for some objectivity. If I believed that no one had the problem I would have asked for a retraction. Surely you can comprehend that difference?

Let's not forget that this post was addressed to Barry. Barry doesn't have a problem with me, why is it that you do? The bottom line is that you made an ill-advised post, and now you've dug in trying to defend it. That was a mistake, and this is our last exchange.

 

[TedRR]

Boys, play nice! :love4:

 

[David Saraceno]

Hey guys:

Take it by e mail or private message.

I doubt that anybody really is interested in your exchanges.

It's hard to see any contributions to the original thread in the latest diatribes.

 

[calchip]

Seriously dudes (oh man I'm getting so Californian!),

I've had HDs BOTH get trashed during a drive-to-drive transfer; I wish there were a simple, solid write-protect feature for that!

Slightly off topic, but relevant in that many of us are using external drives... there is a known bug in WinXP and 98 (not sure about 2000 or Vista) involving external Firewire or USB drives. I couldn't find the microsoft knowledgebase article, but have the kb article bookmarked on another computer.

Basically, under certain circumstances, the directory structure of external hard drives can be corrupted when large files are being written to them. At the time I last looked, there was no real fix offered.

My own experience is that the risk of disk corruption is MUCH higher when reading or writing to multiple USB or Firewire drives on one computer (as would happen if you were copying from one USB drive to another.)

I even had it happen on an external firewire RAID-0 enclosure; it corrupted both of the mirror drives.

We solved the problem by buying Buffalo Terastation raid arrays. If you are using USB or Firewire drives, I very strongly recommend that you ONLY have one USB device hooked up to your laptop at a time, and ONLY do one action at a time (meaning, don't copy large files while simultaneously writing or even reading other files on the USB channel.

Runtime.org's "Get Data Back" will pretty much always restore the drive if it's corrupted this way, but it's a huge pain in the ass to set it up, run it, and then copy the files to another drive.

 

[Ralph Oshiro]

. . . there is a known bug in WinXP and 98 (not sure about 2000 or Vista) involving external Firewire or USB drives. I couldn't find the microsoft knowledgebase article, but have the kb article bookmarked on another computer.

I would love to know the bookmark for that Microsoft Knowledgebase article. I have a TON of external Firewire drives and HDD enclosures, and two, side-by-side Windows XP machines. I am in the process of archiving huge still libraries, and WindowsXP manages to choke during just about every attempt at large numbers of file transfers. Thanks!

 

[tak1108]

Is anyone with these problems using the Apple Recommended workflow of creating a Disk Image of the card? Or just drag and drop?

While it's slower, a "read-only" disk image is great security for unloading the cards. The read/write goes faster, but out of 300 dumps, we had 3 Disk image corruptions. Also, they might corrupt when copying from one computer to the other, so read only is definitely the way to go.

I had a couple DMGs on one hard drive and copied them to our main backup. When I opened them from the backup, the first one opened with digital glitches all over, and the second one wouldn't open saying it had no file system.

I opened the originals and everything was fine. BUT, then the hard drive the originals were on, DISCONNECTED (bad firewire 800 cable) and they disk images became corrupt as they were in the middle of a transfer. Upon replacing the cable, both DMGs were corrupt, no file system error. I was able to use the disk utility to make a copy of the dmg and was able to open the copy of each one, but there was 45 minutes in there I though all that content was gone. Always, use read only.

 

[calchip]

I would love to know the bookmark for that Microsoft Knowledgebase article. I have a TON of external Firewire drives and HDD enclosures, and two, side-by-side Windows XP machines. I am in the process of archiving huge still libraries, and WindowsXP manages to choke during just about every attempt at large numbers of file transfers. Thanks!

Haven't found it yet, it's on one of 4 computers in my (rather large) bookmark folders. I will keep looking.

We used to have about 25 external drives. After numerous hardware failures and about a half dozen of the directory corruption problems, we switched to RAID arrays (combination of a custom built 3tb Linux video server and several Buffalo Terastations.) We've had zero problems (other than one Terastation drive failure, which took 10 minutes to replace and we were back to full production) since then.

The one other thing that might be helpful: The problem seems to occur less when managing smaller files such as still images rather than 2 or 5 or 10 gig video files. I would still advise copying only from one USB drive at a time, not copying from one to another (except across a network using different computers for each drive), and only having one copy or read or write function going on with that drive at a time. Once we became anal about doing that, the corruption problems went away.

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

Hi,

If someone wanted Panasonic to try and do something, here is what you need to do. Make a DVD copy of the MXF file/Contents folder that is problematic. Please make it a complete Data copy, it needs to be recognizable as a Contents folder. Document exactly what you did to cause the problem, not meaning that you caused the problem but the steps you took that made the problem show up. Keep in mind what we need is something that is totally repeatable. And also include a list of all of the software programs you have installed on your system.

When you have that, send it to me. SEnd me a private message and I will give you the address where to send.

Thanks guys, gals,

Jan