Odyssey7Q

[PrimeHD]

We feel that offering 4K to a compressed codec, using the best deBayer that we can engineer, allows many more the capability of actually using 4K from their FS700.

OK so then it's an easy choice of Option 1 here.

You see, we can already capture HD from FS700 - both internally and externally with other recording solutions. But we'd like to be able to record 4K ASAP, with our pre-ordered Odyssey 7Q.

(Yes it'll be great to have a high quality derived HD solution in 7Q, but achieving 4K is a priority here.)

 

[PrimeHD]

I'm curious whether *anyone* is interested in 240fps 2K RAW?

Yes - interested here! Because in this mode, capture is no longer limited to 7.8sec buffer - so you won't miss next recording anymore, while still waiting on your media to process the previous one, as currently is the case with internal SD card!

 

[Stephen Mick]

I'll cast my vote for Option 1.

 

[Dan Keaton]

Dan and others,

It sounds like there's a chance that there will be no 4K recording day one, personally i think this would be a huge shame, but i'm not privy to the task at hand.
I'm glad to hear that the signal will be log encoded, that's a real plus point.

I still strongly believe that the 4K compressed would be the number one choice - you can derive 1080p or 2K 444 from that yourself, better than 422 10bit log. After all, for the cost of the O7 and SSDs you could trade in your 700 for an F3 that does all that - and does it really, really well. It's the lure of 4K as a source that keeps the 700 interesting.

But of course i'd like to see the O7 out there and would like >8 bit colour depth. Would much much *prefer* 4K, but would take something else if that turns out to not be a day 1 option.

I'd even take 4K uncompressed if it was easier just to dump the data out.

Now, when you say 30fps, i presume you mean up to 30fps (25fps for us UK folk?). Just checking.

I'm curious whether *anyone* is interested in 240fps 2K RAW? Until i see some decent footage from that mode, it's off my Radar...

cheers
Paul

Dear Paul,

We are definitely listening to all of the comments and suggestions.

And when I say 30 fps in this context, I do mean HD (1920 x 1080) derived from the FS700 4K Raw, which is 12-Bit's linear, to obtain HD at up to 30 fps (1080p30), including 1080p23.976 (23.98), 24 (true 24 if possible from the camera), 25, 29.97 and true 30 (if possible from the camera). I have not checked to determine if the true frame rates are possible from the FS700 or not.

We actually want to offer up to 60 fps in this mode, but we are not promising this at this time, if we can do it, we will add this when practical.

There is a lot of interest in very high frame rate 2K. We have this working.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design

 

[Dan Keaton]

Hi Dan,
*Is the release date for the 7Q still duo to august?

hopefully we can achieve super slowmotion with the same quality in burst mode (not continuous, true 10-bit) down the road.

Thank you for taking you time to feed us with you knowledge and insight

Dear FreshTea,

We are working hard to start shipping in very late August. Our firmware team is working 6 days a week.

But, it may be sometime in September.


I do not have enough knowledge about the 2K burst (cache) mode in the upgraded FS700. I have not personally tested this mode.

But I wonder why one would want to use this "Load the Cache", then dump the cache to an external recorder mode, when one has the new 2K mode, using the full sensor, not a windowed sensor mode, where one can just start and stop our recorder as desired, without any 8 second limitation, nor any delay while waiting for the cache to dump to an external recorder?

Maybe I am missing something?

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design

 

[Dan Keaton]

Hey Dan,

If 4K Compressed Codec at 60fps is the limit. What about if you down-res it to 2K compressed codec? Can we still get 240fps at 4:2:2 10-bit? That would be a dream come true. I would 100% buy the recorder for sure if that's possible.

That might just be a dream spec. though; but keep up the good work.

Dear Gene,

If there is a demand for us to take the 2K Raw output of the FS700, then deBayer it, then compress it, then we will consider adding this option.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design

 

[Dan Keaton]

Thanks Dan for your answer. Thanks paulcurtis for pointing out the obvious that 2K raw is not derived from 4K RAW but it is a separate selectable output signal option on FS700. I was stupid thinking that there's only one kind of signal coming out of the camera. If this is the case I hope Odyssey will use the 4K signal for delivering HD (and possible 2K) recording for all the frame rates up to 60. This would probably cover 95% of my shooting needs with good quality image. Of course I understand that currently you can only give us 30p in 4K and therefore having 60p HD derived from 4K RAW would be different process. This makes the choice harder as option 1 would give us 4K and higher quality HD if done in post but currently only up to 30p where option 2 might give us good quality HD possibly up to 60p since the process in option two for 4K RAW to HD conversion is probably same was it 30p or 60p. After considering this I think 1 would make more sense than option 2 (which i voted earlier), so I'd like to change my vote to option 1. Compressed 4K up to 30p would probably cover 90% of my shooting needs. Naturally I hope we could have HD 60p derived from 4K RAW soon after. Shooting higher fps than 60 would be quite rare and in there I could probably live with degraded quality 2K RAW output signal, but naturally I hope CD can find a way to address this problem later, although I'm afraid the poor resolution of 2K RAW is already "baked" in the moment the sensor is read or by the when it is processed for output.

Dear Sebasti,

We are only promising compressed HD, in 10-Bit, up to 30 fps at this time.

But, we want to implement this mode in 60 fps, if we can.

So they verdict is out on HD, 10-Bit at 60 fps.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design

 

[Dan Keaton]

Hi Dan,

Thanks for being so responsive!

If the HD image is 10 bit I vote for option #1. As others have stated we can create a 4:4:4 HD file from an 4K 4:2:2 file. The benefits of relatively low data rate 4K codec would be a godsend for me.

Dan, you mentioned you could mathematically derive a 4:4:4 HD signal from the raw signal. Have you explored the possibility of 7Q recording a 12 bit linear 4:4:4 HD signal? Given that the signal starts out 12 bit linear it doesn't seem like it would be huge stretch, unless there is some limitation with 7Q's hardware. This would also make the 7Q more useful with Canon C500 which outputs a 12 bit 4:4:4 signal natively. Who knows, maybe one day Sony might enable raw over SDI for the F5 and you'll be ready!

Thanks again!
Gary

Dear Gary,

Without being too specific, since we have a lot on our plate, and do not want to over-promise, I will just state that we are considering more modes.

Just rest assured that we will do out best to get the most out of the Sony FS700 and the Canon C500.

I am sorry but I do not want to promise and then not be able to deliver, I hope you understand.


Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design

 

[Elevated Visual]

Hi Dan, we have 7Q reserved, for two fs700s. I would like to record both simultaneously to the 7Q A cam as Hd 10bit and B cam as 2k high frame rates. Will this be possible and if so how high frame rate?

Thanks again for your help,

Stan Temple
Elevated Visual

 

[PrimeHD]

+1 what EV said. My understanding is 7Q will allow up to 4 video streams to be recorded simultaneously - it'd be great to know **in what combinations**. (Although quad stream recording does seem to be an option, not standsrd feature.)

 

[evilthought]

Thats what i'm thinking, 4 sec burst in 4k is a beast! If they can get 4K 60p in a popular codec, 120 fps in burst & 1080 hd then its a wrap people! Get to Sweden people im buying you all a round, Dan is invited!

Since they can't record 4K raw, they might not have horse power to debayer 4K 120 fps and record it in some other format.

 

[brazzam]

Since they can't record 4K raw, they might not have horse power to debayer 4K 120 fps and record it in some other format.

We don't really know how much horsepower the 7Q has. Dan has said that the device has the power to record 4K RAW - the only reason it can't is due to the stipulations that Sony placed on the license agreement with CD.

At this point, I think CD is just trying to get the device out the door... and will tinker with new features over time.

 

[jshbckr]

Hi Dan, we have 7Q reserved, for two fs700s. I would like to record both simultaneously to the 7Q A cam as Hd 10bit and B cam as 2k high frame rates. Will this be possible and if so how high frame rate?

Thanks again for your help,

Stan Temple
Elevated Visual

I'm just making an assumption, but I can't imagine being able to record HD 10-bit AND 240fps 2K simultaneously. You already need two SSDs to have enough bandwidth for the 240fps recording... I feel like throwing 10-bit HD in there at the same time would be a little too much.

 

[freshTEA]

Dear FreshTea,

We are working hard to start shipping in very late August. Our firmware team is working 6 days a week.

But, it may be sometime in September.


I do not have enough knowledge about the 2K burst (cache) mode in the upgraded FS700. I have not personally tested this mode.

But I wonder why one would want to use this "Load the Cache", then dump the cache to an external recorder mode, when one has the new 2K mode, using the full sensor, not a windowed sensor mode, where one can just start and stop our recorder as desired, without any 8 second limitation, nor any delay while waiting for the cache to dump to an external recorder?

Maybe I am missing something?

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design

You might be right, It is just that being able to end trigger is something thats been very convenient at least for me. I was mostly thinking in terms of being able to do this duo to the fact you cant shoot super slow-motion continuous from 4K. But that was when I thought we might be able to take 120 fps fps to 1080p HD with 7Q (If and when you be able to record 60p)

 

[paulcurtis]

But I think sony solution were able to get 120 fps in burst mode in 4k, Shouldnt 7Q be able to get 120 fps into 1080 HD 10-bit then as well? (burst mode that is)

In normal (HD) use that burst mode is sent out of the camera at 60p and quite a lot of external recorders cannot record that.

We (well, I) don't know yet how the 700 outputs the 4K RAW burst. If it outputs it at 30p then i would think the O7 could cope with that. If it outputs it at 60p (the max 4K rate) then we don't know whether the O7 will be able to debayer and record that to disk yet.

The Sony solution has the advantage in that all the recorder has to do is dump the data to storage - it doesn't debayer. Because of the licensing with Sony the O7 has to read that RAW, decompress it, debayer it AND record it to disk!

I don't know whether it's easier for CD to compress the 4K or just dump uncompressed images to disk, if there was a mode for just dumping it to disk uncompressed, i'd be happy with that too. It would save some processing overhead with compression.

cheers
Paul

 

[paulcurtis]

Dear FreshTea,
We are working hard to start shipping in very late August. Our firmware team is working 6 days a week.
But, it may be sometime in September.

Wishing you the best of luck, i can't wait to get my hands on it... (even if it's beta firmware!)

But I wonder why one would want to use this "Load the Cache", then dump the cache to an external recorder mode, when one has the new 2K mode, using the full sensor, not a windowed sensor mode, where one can just start and stop our recorder as desired, without any 8 second limitation, nor any delay while waiting for the cache to dump to an external recorder?
Maybe I am missing something?

The concern about the 2K RAW solution is there is much higher aliasing because of the way Sony might be binning the pixels on the 4K sensor to give 2K. Aside from a few people (the cinegear presentation showed a substantial reduction is resolution here), no one has any sample footage of this yet to know what it's like. Certainly in standard modes (HD) the aliasing can be pronounced in some cases.

The other aspect is who actually wants to run 240fps continuously? Aside from scientific folk and specific applications i don't think i've ever needed any more than the burst mode.

The advantage to being able to record 4K buffered is simply one of quality. Slow motion has a habit of highlighting aliasing just because it's slow motion.

I can see me never using 2K RAW but, assuming possible, always wanting 4K buffered for that extra quality.

I think what i, and perhaps the community, has alway seen the 700 as a wolf in sheeps clothing. The sensor inside is more powerful than it's cost. The surrounding camera is not pro, but looked after and used carefully it's fine. The O7 recorder is the holy grail in giving us a chance to get the most out of that sensor in a way that isn't an ergonomic fail, nor a disproportionate cost. Hence the 4K capture at reasonable colour depth.

Do you know whether the uncompressed 4K is going to be an option to start with? Is it easier to dump 4K to disc like this compared to compressing it?

cheers
Paul

 

[rejdmast]

"The other aspect is who actually wants to run 240fps continuously? Aside from scientific folk and specific applications i don't think i've ever needed any more than the burst mode."

I guess it depends on what you are shooting. There are a lot of sports situations where 240 fps continuous would be advantageous. What if you are the slow motion guy on a soccer match - you pretty much need it all the time. How about surfing, etc.

I hope that CD can deliver a 240 fps mode better than the current Sony version of binning. It can be 1920 or 2K, raw or compressed, as long it it starts with the 4K video and doesn't lose any quality.
Dan, it that possible? Please don't say no. :nads:

 

[sebasti]

"I hope that CD can deliver a 240 fps mode better than the current Sony version of binning. It can be 1920 or 2K, raw or compressed, as long it it starts with the 4K video and doesn't lose any quality.

Well it won't since the 4K only outputs 60p max.. any frame rate recording higher than that would need to be done from 2K RAW feed.

 

[rejdmast]

Juan Martinez from Sony stated in a previous video on the web that the FS700 could read 300 fps.
(I wish I could find the link that the FS700 could read 300 fps although he never stated if it was 4K, binned, etc.)
Also, I believe the new Sony recorder will be able to buffer 4 seconds of 4K at 120fps.

In a previous post Dan Keaton from CD stated:
"The updated FS700 with our Odyssey7Q will be able to record full resolution 2K Raw at 240 fps continuously (which equates to 45 minutes using our largest SSD's).
I want to stress the full resolution part, this is not half vertical resolution, no sensor windowing, thus no moire problems."
This is good enough for me for the time being. :2vrolijk_08:

 

[Dan Keaton]

Hi Dan, we have 7Q reserved, for two fs700s. I would like to record both simultaneously to the 7Q A cam as Hd 10bit and B cam as 2k high frame rates. Will this be possible and if so how high frame rate?

Thanks again for your help,

Stan Temple
Elevated Visual

Dear Friends,

Our Multi-Stream option, an extra cost feature, due in Q1 2014, will allow recording of up to four HD (1920 x 1080), up to 1080p30, video streams simultaneously.

It will not allow one video stream to be HD and one to be FS700 Raw at high frame rates.

This may be technically possible, but we will not know until later. We have not promised this combination.

If you have two FS700's and you want to record one in HD and one in 2K Raw, then this currently requires two Odyssey7Q's, at least one with our Sony FS700 option ($795 US Price).

I hope this helps.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design