Odyssey7Q

Barry_Green said:
Well, let's please clarify then -- Dan -- would both options require the Sony upgrade?

I don't believe that you're saying you can deliver 10-bit 1080p from the FS700's SDI port. That's what I originally thought, but you said it wasn't an up-res, it was actually taking the higher quality source, so that would require that you have an upgraded FS700, would it not?
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Dear Friends,

Yes, this requires the FS700 hardware/firmware upgrade.

The HD-SDI in HD out of the FS700 upgraded or not, is 8-Bit in a 10-Bit word.

The 2K Raw and 4K Raw out of the FS700 is 12-Bit Linear.

We will take the Raw output, deBayered it, and perform other processing to obtain a high quality HD signal in 10-Bit.

It is also our intention to provide Log encoding to make the best use of the 12-Bit input format, while outputting 10-Bit for the compressed codec format.

Respectfully,

Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
Barry_Green said:
I didn't see that post... but what sensor limitation would mean that 1080p from a 4K sensor must be limited to 4:2:2? Couldn't they just use the same non-demosaic interpretation of the data that Canon does, to get effectively 4:4:4 by using each rgbg pixel block as a unit for making an individual r:g:b 4:4:4 pixel?
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Dear Barry,

I may have been wrong in an earlier post.

This may change, but our current intentions are to output the 10-Bit HD in 4:2:2 to the compressed codec.

We may later add 4:4:4.

You are 100% correct in that it is possible to take a 4K Raw signal and obtain HD 1920 x 1080 in 4:4:4.

On the other hand, it is not possible to create real 4K 4:4:4 from a 4K Bayer pattern sensor that has 4096 x 2160 photosites, but 4:2:2 is possible.

I hope this helps.

I try hard to be clear, precise and accurate in my posts, but I can (and do) make mistakes.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
PrimeHD said:
Option 2

(I'm assuming Odyssey 7Q already captures 4K RAW as DPX file sequence without a problem, just not as a compressed codec, right? So 4K capture is guaranteed from the get-go. Now we need a nice 1080p, thus Option 2 as a priority, please.)
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Dear Friends,

I am about to open another discussion here since the question was asked.

It is our thoughts, that 4K recorded to a compressed codec will be far more popular than recording to 4K full uncompressed.

The key point is that Sony has not given us permission to record 4K Raw.

And 4K uncompressed file sizes are very large compared to 4K compressed.

We feel that offering 4K to a compressed codec, using the best deBayer that we can engineer, allows many more the capability of actually using 4K from their FS700.

Later, if the demand is there, we may be able to offer 4K full uncompressed. I do need to check on the actual file sizes and ensure that it does not exceed the maximum continuous write speeds of our unit.

(We can write over 840 Megabytes (not Megabits) to our SSD's continuously. The actual speed is higher, but we are very conservative to ensure reliability.)


For the Canon C500, we record 4K Raw, up to 60 fps.

If we receive permission from Sony, we will definitely add the ability to record 4K Raw.

I hope this helps.


Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
sebasti said:
Hello Dan,

Thank you for addressing the community on this. I had to register here just to comment to this thread.

I guess at first the option 2 would be better. But I'd have few questions that make this choice harder:

1) Would "FS700 support that allows recording 4K to a popular compressed codec" mean that we could get higher frame rates like 60p with this popular codec?
2) If we have compressed 1080p derived from 4K RAW, how good the picture quality will be and how high can we go with the frame rate or are the higher frame rates only going to be available in 2K RAW recording? Sony's RAW recorder seems to do terrible job resolution wise when recording 2K RAW derived from 4K raw, so can we be assured that we still get good performance out of 1080p recording? Will Odyssey have enough processing power to deliver compressed 1080p in 240 fps?
3) How are you going to solve this 2K RAW issue? Personally I'd be happy if I had 12bit 444 signal in 1080 and 2K in 12bit 444 both in compressed format if this can guarantee us better resolution than some "fake" 2K RAW gimmick. Of course, if you can implement 2K RAW with better resolution than Sony's recorder then I'd welcome this as a choice too. If these things are going to be implemented later, but people still buy Odyssey while expecting these features, we need to know that when they are added, we are not stuck with something that can only match FS700 internal AVCHD codec's resolution as it is when shooting internally 240p.
4) Can we have compressed 2K also as an alternative choice?
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Dear Sebasti,

Thank you for registering and joining in the conversation.

I am still traveling around the United States, and I really need to get on the road shortly, thus I do not have the time at this moment to fully answer your questions.

1. We are currently promising that we will be able to record 4K to a compressed codec at 30 frames per second.

We obtain this from 4K Raw, which can be output at 60 fps.

We want to be able to offer 4K to a compressed codec at 60 fps.

But, we are very conservative, thus we are promising only 30 fps right now. We want to under-promise and over-deliver (if possible).

2. Since we are using the 4K signal to obtain HD, 60 fps is the limit in 4K.

2b. We have not promised 240 fps HD. But, we are a customer driven company.
We have a tremendous amount of processing power in the Odyssey7Q.
Later we will know more. We may, or may not, be able to offer 240 fps compressed HD.

3. Later, we will investigate the 2K Raw issue you mentioned.
I hope you understand that we are currently busy implementing the other modes we promised, so this has to be handled later.

We currently have 240 fps Raw recording working.

4. We may be able to fulfill your request. We will need to investigate this. Of course the comrpressed codec has to support 2K.

I wish I had more time to more fully address all of your questions.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
Hi Dan,
*Is the release date for the 7Q still duo to august?

hopefully we can achieve super slowmotion with the same quality in burst mode (not continuous, true 10-bit) down the road.

Thank you for taking you time to feed us with you knowledge and insight
 
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timmytimetravel said:
Option 2. Secretly hoping dan is going to come back in a week and declare both can be done day 1, just wanted to get a demand/interest count on the sly :)
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Dear TimmyTimeTravel,

I would love for us to be able to do both on day one.

We have been debating which is best for us to implement first.

We really wanted to know how the FS700 community felt.

Option 2 is much easier for us to implement.

Option 1 is much harder and will take longer. Image Quality is paramount, and we do not want to release something that compromises the image quality, thus we feel that this option will take longer.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
Well Option 2 is leading the pack right now... so if it's easier for you guys, it looks like that is the clear winner.

Now, if you guys go with Option 2, will the 7Q still be able to record some​ type of 4K on launch day? or no?
 
Hey Dan,

If 4K Compressed Codec at 60fps is the limit. What about if you down-res it to 2K compressed codec? Can we still get 240fps at 4:2:2 10-bit? That would be a dream come true. I would 100% buy the recorder for sure if that's possible.

That might just be a dream spec. though; but keep up the good work.
 
Dan and others,

It sounds like there's a chance that there will be no 4K recording day one, personally i think this would be a huge shame, but i'm not privy to the task at hand.
I'm glad to hear that the signal will be log encoded, that's a real plus point.

I still strongly believe that the 4K compressed would be the number one choice - you can derive 1080p or 2K 444 from that yourself, better than 422 10bit log. After all, for the cost of the O7 and SSDs you could trade in your 700 for an F3 that does all that - and does it really, really well. It's the lure of 4K as a source that keeps the 700 interesting.

But of course i'd like to see the O7 out there and would like >8 bit colour depth. Would much much *prefer* 4K, but would take something else if that turns out to not be a day 1 option.

I'd even take 4K uncompressed if it was easier just to dump the data out.

Now, when you say 30fps, i presume you mean up to 30fps (25fps for us UK folk?). Just checking.

I'm curious whether *anyone* is interested in 240fps 2K RAW? Until i see some decent footage from that mode, it's off my Radar...

cheers
Paul
 
gene_can_sing said:
Hey Dan,

If 4K Compressed Codec at 60fps is the limit. What about if you down-res it to 2K compressed codec? Can we still get 240fps at 4:2:2 10-bit? That would be a dream come true. I would 100% buy the recorder for sure if that's possible.

That might just be a dream spec. though; but keep up the good work.
Click to expand...

I think we can answer that

You've got two things coming out of that port. 4K up to 60fps. 2K up to 240fps.

You can derive other formats from the 4K but 60fps is an upper limit of the camera, plus there's also any limits that the O7 may have.

In theory the O7 is able to write out the 240 fps 2K RAW, this is a straight dump from the camera in terms of quality - no debayering, no scaling. From other tests around the interwebs, it appears this mode suffers the same aliasing issues that we currently get in super slow mo modes. Which may be okay for you. I would say however that a better debayer which can understand this flavour of 2K RAW could do a better job of reconstruction that a standard debayer.

So 4K -> high quality 2K and 1080 up to 60fps
2K RAW -> up to 240fps, but that's it.

Hope that helps?

cheers
Paul
 
paulcurtis said:
I think we can answer that

You've got two things coming out of that port. 4K up to 60fps. 2K up to 240fps.

You can derive other formats from the 4K but 60fps is an upper limit of the camera, plus there's also any limits that the O7 may have.

In theory the O7 is able to write out the 240 fps 2K RAW, this is a straight dump from the camera in terms of quality - no debayering, no scaling. From other tests around the interwebs, it appears this mode suffers the same aliasing issues that we currently get in super slow mo modes. Which may be okay for you. I would say however that a better debayer which can understand this flavour of 2K RAW could do a better job of reconstruction that a standard debayer.

So 4K -> high quality 2K and 1080 up to 60fps
2K RAW -> up to 240fps, but that's it.

Hope that helps?

cheers
Paul
Click to expand...

But I think sony solution were able to get 120 fps in burst mode in 4k, Shouldnt 7Q be able to get 120 fps into 1080 HD 10-bit then as well? (burst mode that is)
 
Thanks Dan for your answer. Thanks paulcurtis for pointing out the obvious that 2K raw is not derived from 4K RAW but it is a separate selectable output signal option on FS700. I was stupid thinking that there's only one kind of signal coming out of the camera. If this is the case I hope Odyssey will use the 4K signal for delivering HD (and possible 2K) recording for all the frame rates up to 60. This would probably cover 95% of my shooting needs with good quality image. Of course I understand that currently you can only give us 30p in 4K and therefore having 60p HD derived from 4K RAW would be different process. This makes the choice harder as option 1 would give us 4K and higher quality HD if done in post but currently only up to 30p where option 2 might give us good quality HD possibly up to 60p since the process in option two for 4K RAW to HD conversion is probably same was it 30p or 60p. After considering this I think 1 would make more sense than option 2 (which i voted earlier), so I'd like to change my vote to option 1. Compressed 4K up to 30p would probably cover 90% of my shooting needs. Naturally I hope we could have HD 60p derived from 4K RAW soon after. Shooting higher fps than 60 would be quite rare and in there I could probably live with degraded quality 2K RAW output signal, but naturally I hope CD can find a way to address this problem later, although I'm afraid the poor resolution of 2K RAW is already "baked" in the moment the sensor is read or by the when it is processed for output.
 
gene_can_sing said:
Hey Dan,

If 4K Compressed Codec at 60fps is the limit. What about if you down-res it to 2K compressed codec? Can we still get 240fps at 4:2:2 10-bit? That would be a dream come true. I would 100% buy the recorder for sure if that's possible. .
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? FS700 can only deliver 60 fps in continuous 4K raw mode. Only in 2K raw it can deliver higher frames continuously. Downsampling cannot change the frame rates in Odyssey7Q
 
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freshTEA said:
But I think sony solution were able to get 120 fps in burst mode in 4k, Shouldnt 7Q be able to get 120 fps into 1080 HD 10-bit then as well? (burst mode that is)
Click to expand...

Yes, technically Odyssey7Q should be able to record that (if they have hardware power to debayer it), but that is not continuous, it's 4 sec burst.
 
brazzam said:
While 4K is something I'm interested in ASAP, I can't help but think option 2 might be useful in the field right now. While we can down-res 4K to HD, 4K footage is much larger in file size, and I'd hate to have to shoot EVERYTHING in 4K just to get 10-bit data. None of my clients are requesting 4K acquisition yet, so I'm more interested in a high-quality HD recording without breaking my disk storage space. So for now, I'd rather have 10-bit HD with the knowledge that 4K "popular codec" is coming soon.

Therefore, let me go a bit against the grain and say Option 2 for me. (Though I'm not gonna complain about getting 4K either)
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+1
Option 2 first for me!
Thanks Dan
p.
 
Will we not have the option of 12 bit 1080 or will that only come once prores 4444 in enabled? I am more interested in color depth than size of frame. 4,000 some grades of color per channel is waaaaay better than 1,000. Thanks Dan!
 
evilthought said:
Yes, technically Odyssey7Q should be able to record that (if they have hardware power to debayer it), but that is not continuous, it's 4 sec burst.
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Thats what i'm thinking, 4 sec burst in 4k is a beast! If they can get 4K 60p in a popular codec, 120 fps in burst & 1080 hd then its a wrap people! Get to Sweden people im buying you all a round, Dan is invited!
 
Dan Keaton said:
Dear Barry,

I may have been wrong in an earlier post.

This may change, but our current intentions are to output the 10-Bit HD in 4:2:2 to the compressed codec.

We may later add 4:4:4.

You are 100% correct in that it is possible to take a 4K Raw signal and obtain HD 1920 x 1080 in 4:4:4.

On the other hand, it is not possible to create real 4K 4:4:4 from a 4K Bayer pattern sensor that has 4096 x 2160 photosites, but 4:2:2 is possible.

I hope this helps.

I try hard to be clear, precise and accurate in my posts, but I can (and do) make mistakes.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
Click to expand...


Hi Dan,

Thanks for being so responsive!

If the HD image is 10 bit I vote for option #1. As others have stated we can create a 4:4:4 HD file from an 4K 4:2:2 file. The benefits of relatively low data rate 4K codec would be a godsend for me.

Dan, you mentioned you could mathematically derive a 4:4:4 HD signal from the raw signal. Have you explored the possibility of 7Q recording a 12 bit linear 4:4:4 HD signal? Given that the signal starts out 12 bit linear it doesn't seem like it would be huge stretch, unless there is some limitation with 7Q's hardware. This would also make the 7Q more useful with Canon C500 which outputs a 12 bit 4:4:4 signal natively. Who knows, maybe one day Sony might enable raw over SDI for the F5 and you'll be ready!

Thanks again!
Gary
 
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