F5: NEW Sony F5 Bundle Includes a7SII Body, Viewfinder, Shoulder Pad, & More
- Thread starter mitch@provideo
- Start date
HD Gear Guru
Well-known member
So... A bit late to the party here but in reality the package deal that SONY announced with this bundle is not much different in terms of package cost as the other deals that were /are on the books. Previous deals included an optional kit that included the EF to FZ lens adapter from Opti-Tec, a hard case, battery, charger/power supply combo and SXS media. That bundle with minor change is still available. Sony with this new offering is just opening the door to a set of clients who might find this particular bundle a bit more to their liking.
I think they are smart of offer a number of different bundle packages and in no way should this bundle indicate a new camera just around the corner... if we were all waiting for the new camera that was just around the corner you'd be standing their waiting all your life... Make the move, make images, make money - serve your clients and create stunning moving images that tell stories.
I think they are smart of offer a number of different bundle packages and in no way should this bundle indicate a new camera just around the corner... if we were all waiting for the new camera that was just around the corner you'd be standing their waiting all your life... Make the move, make images, make money - serve your clients and create stunning moving images that tell stories.
mitch@provideo
DVXuser Sponsor
I know a lot of people speculate that a model must be done if there is a large price drop of some kind of hot incentive. That's understandable. Certainly that's part of our culture these days. New iPhone launches, get last years iPhone for half-price.
However, in this case i strongly do not believe we will see a 'replacement' model of any kind in the next 10-12 months, minimum. As a Sony dealer for the last 25 years there are certain internal signs that we typically see when i model in EOL. One of the most notable includes a change to the dealer sales programs from the manufacturer, alteration of sales incentives and modification of advertising rules. There have been no changes of these kinds with this model. We saw it recently with the NEX-FS700. Its recent public price drop were accompanied by behind the scene changes of how the camera was to be sold. Having said that, a product can remain End Of Life for 12 months or more, its not an instant kind of thing.
It's my belief that the recent package with the a7SII and accessories is simply realigning of market placement. Canon is launching a little camera thats generating some buzz called the C300mkII at $16,000. When you buy a C300mkII you get a viewfinder and internal 4K recording out of the box. Because it takes CFast cards you don't need an expensive card reader. Sony is addressing this by giving you a viewfinder, a card reader, the 4K capture, a shoulder pad (an essentially required item) all in the bundle.
Plus they're sweetening the pot by crossing over what is essentially two separate companies, the 'Consumer' division a7SII and the 'Broadcast' division F5. I don't think most people appreciate how difficult this is to pull off. From my position as primarily a Broadcast division partner i experience it frequently as working with Alpha series photo products presents logistical challenges for me. Of course Sony's doing this because there is a ton of buzz behind the Alpha products for video right now. Sony wouldn't be doing this simply to have a blow out sale on F5. They'd simply slash the price. That would be much much easier for them to pull off internally.
Finally i feel something that's extremely overlooked with pro-level cameras these days is that the presence of a new model does not negate the quality of a previous model. The Canon C300 didn't all of a sudden start making terrible pictures because they announced a C300mkII. IF there were some kind of "F5mkII" camera coming it would be closer the $20k and wouldn't have any extras bundled with it. Even if this happened tomorrow it wouldn't change the great value that the F5 bundle is offering. I think that, while a lot of users understand this and agree, its the uncertainty of what's coming next that drives people a little crazy when it comes to investing in technology.
I'll conclude by saying that i have NO insider knowledge of Sony's R&D or future product pipeline. Everything mentioned here is my own personal opinion. I can only speak to what i've learned in 25 years of working on this side of the industry and what i see in my daily communications with the manufacturer. Ultimately each owner/operator must decide for themselves if they need a really great camera today at an amazing price that's going to make fantastic pictures for years to come. OR if they don't need a camera today and can wait 3 months, 6 months, 12 months, 18 months etc. for the inevitable replacement model that we all know is coming someday.
Please free free to hit me up with questions. Keep in mind that i'm offering great financing incentives on Sony CineAlta products including the F5+a7SII bundle, the FS7, and the upcoming FS5. For more information about Sony 0% financing programs email or call. Thanks for your time everyone. I'm happy to help any way i can.
Eric Petrie
epetrie@provideoandtape.com
503-598-9142
Finance the NEW Sony F5+a7SII bundle for $492/36 mo. $0 down
Finance the NEW Canon C300mkII for $459/36 mo. $0 down
Apply Now
However, in this case i strongly do not believe we will see a 'replacement' model of any kind in the next 10-12 months, minimum. As a Sony dealer for the last 25 years there are certain internal signs that we typically see when i model in EOL. One of the most notable includes a change to the dealer sales programs from the manufacturer, alteration of sales incentives and modification of advertising rules. There have been no changes of these kinds with this model. We saw it recently with the NEX-FS700. Its recent public price drop were accompanied by behind the scene changes of how the camera was to be sold. Having said that, a product can remain End Of Life for 12 months or more, its not an instant kind of thing.
It's my belief that the recent package with the a7SII and accessories is simply realigning of market placement. Canon is launching a little camera thats generating some buzz called the C300mkII at $16,000. When you buy a C300mkII you get a viewfinder and internal 4K recording out of the box. Because it takes CFast cards you don't need an expensive card reader. Sony is addressing this by giving you a viewfinder, a card reader, the 4K capture, a shoulder pad (an essentially required item) all in the bundle.
Plus they're sweetening the pot by crossing over what is essentially two separate companies, the 'Consumer' division a7SII and the 'Broadcast' division F5. I don't think most people appreciate how difficult this is to pull off. From my position as primarily a Broadcast division partner i experience it frequently as working with Alpha series photo products presents logistical challenges for me. Of course Sony's doing this because there is a ton of buzz behind the Alpha products for video right now. Sony wouldn't be doing this simply to have a blow out sale on F5. They'd simply slash the price. That would be much much easier for them to pull off internally.
Finally i feel something that's extremely overlooked with pro-level cameras these days is that the presence of a new model does not negate the quality of a previous model. The Canon C300 didn't all of a sudden start making terrible pictures because they announced a C300mkII. IF there were some kind of "F5mkII" camera coming it would be closer the $20k and wouldn't have any extras bundled with it. Even if this happened tomorrow it wouldn't change the great value that the F5 bundle is offering. I think that, while a lot of users understand this and agree, its the uncertainty of what's coming next that drives people a little crazy when it comes to investing in technology.
I'll conclude by saying that i have NO insider knowledge of Sony's R&D or future product pipeline. Everything mentioned here is my own personal opinion. I can only speak to what i've learned in 25 years of working on this side of the industry and what i see in my daily communications with the manufacturer. Ultimately each owner/operator must decide for themselves if they need a really great camera today at an amazing price that's going to make fantastic pictures for years to come. OR if they don't need a camera today and can wait 3 months, 6 months, 12 months, 18 months etc. for the inevitable replacement model that we all know is coming someday.
Please free free to hit me up with questions. Keep in mind that i'm offering great financing incentives on Sony CineAlta products including the F5+a7SII bundle, the FS7, and the upcoming FS5. For more information about Sony 0% financing programs email or call. Thanks for your time everyone. I'm happy to help any way i can.
Eric Petrie
epetrie@provideoandtape.com
503-598-9142
Finance the NEW Sony F5+a7SII bundle for $492/36 mo. $0 down
Finance the NEW Canon C300mkII for $459/36 mo. $0 down
Apply Now
FWIW, A7SII makes more sense as an "add-on" since it serves as a high ISO b-cam option for F5. A7RII kind of/sort of duplicates some of the features. C300 MKII also looks pretty good at high ISO's (check the recent YouTube clips), which may have had something to do with Sony's management's thinking.
hammerhorror
Well-known member
I have to say that I'm seriously tempted by this offer. I was considering purchasing the C300 Mark II since I currently own a C300, but the F5 with the internal 4K upgrade offers me more for the money. I already own V-Mount batteries, I like the fact that the F5 has two 4-pin hirose power outputs to power wireless mics, etc., better slo-mo options, and 4K/60p. I do a lot of run and gun and like that I would have the option of using a 2/3" zoom lens in the crop mode (with an adapter). I would also be able to use all of my Canon lenses on the camera if I purchased the new Metabones FZ-EF adapter. I also feel that the F5 is easier to rig into a true shoulder mount camera. The only thing holding me back is that most of the clients I work with all request Canon cameras over Sony. I'm wondering if that trend is going to continue or not. I'm having a really hard time making a decision on this one.
Grug
Veteran
It's certainly tricky, the 5D and the new era of widespread, large-sensor video production that it ushered in, still looms large in many producers' minds I feel. It was far more intrinsic to the C300's massive success than most give it credit for really.
Sony has really struggled to generate the kind of rabid enthusiasm that other brands (namely Red, Arri and Canon) have, and objectively, it's hard to understand why. Especially given that on the price/performance scale, they pretty much trump everyone else.
What is very interesting though, is that much like the 5D created interest in the C300, the massive success of Sony's A7 cameras for video, seems to finally be filtering a bit of love towards their proper motion cameras. I've been noticing a lot more people talking about the FS7/F5/F55 lately, and it seems like most of them are looking upwards after being introduced to Sony as a brand via the A7S. It's a long overdue groundswell in my opinion, but I think it bodes well for the cameras growing in popularity. I've been shooting for a few producers lately who are used to C300/C100 images, and they're always pretty blown away by the greater dynamic range and tonality that the F5 offers. It's a quality that's pretty instantly recognisable, and it seems like as soon Producers see a high contrast image where the bright clouds in the sky, or blazing hot highlights on skin aren't blowing out, they go 'wow, that's better'.
But camera popularity is a big deal. I work mostly in narrative, and I've certainly lost a few jobs to 'Red' over the years (not to other DoPs mind you, just the camera brand a which is crazy).
The F5 certainly strikes me as a better buy than the Canon, but definitely try to suss out how your regular producers feel about it before buying in.
The lesson from the 5D/C300 era is: if you want to rule the mid market, first utterly dominate the low end.
Hopefully with the success of the A7s this will translate to their CineAlta cameras rising further in popularity.
Unfortunately for Panasonic, even though they have an utterly incredibly popular GH4, there is *ZERO* middle ground from Panasonic for these shooters to step up to. The DVX200 certainly is not that, the AF100 is now far far too old, and the VariCam is a waaaay to big leap up the ladder from the GH4 for most people to make in one step up. Panasonic had better seriously hurry the freaking hell up with a successor to the AF100, or they'll be blowing a golden chance to make solid grab for the mid market. (which I'm sure will benefit their future VariCam sales as well, when people move on up from an "AF200". Sadly I strongly doubt an AF200 will happen this year or next :-( )
That's pretty much the history of marketing.
As to Panasonic, I assert they will have a full frame or an s35 product out fairly soon. Leica SL allegedly consists of a number of Panasonic made components and I am sure a Panasonic branded camera can be sold for about one third the Leica price.
Then again, if/when it comes out, it might be sharing the space with D5, 1D X MKII and maybe even A99II.
As to new Sony F-line, I believe it will be out shortly but that it may also be sold concurrently with the F-5/55/65 models, albeit at different price points.
Yes, it is indeed. Which makes it even weirder that they haven't brought out an AF100 successor. Then they wonder why the Varicam hasn't yet taken off like it should.... even though it is arguably "the best" camera out right now.
To bring out a Panasonic FF stills camera would be 1,000,000 times more foolish of Panasonic than not bringing out the AF100 successor. As they can't be seen to abandon the m4/3 range (Sony was wise to have a mount which can be used both on their crop sensor cameras and on their full frame cameras).
I wonder, does the Varicam have anything under its PL mount? Like Sony does with their FZ mount. Unfortunately I strongly suspect the Varicam doesn't have this feature (instead it is just swapping between the PL and B4 heads, for S35 vs HS feature), which is a pity as least then a logical mount would exist for a future Panasonic camera to take up and use (as Sony would never let Panasonic use their FZ mount, which is my 1st preference. Though I dunno if FF would work with FZ mount?!?! It is a rather large opening however, suspect it might!).
A Panasonic FF-GH5 with some kind of "Varicam-FZ" mount would be super awesome. Ah well.... invent one??? A mount which they'll then bring out almost no lenses for. Just like Sony did with their FZ mount! LOL
But yeah... that could kinda make sense in a weird twisted way.
Thus don't bother about using a mount that they'll make lenses for (as they should keep the focus on m4/3, which they've built up large resource of lenses in).
Treat this mount in a new camera like Sony treats their FZ mount! Then go and target a price point somewhere in the C100 to F5 price range. (I'd prefer the C100 end of that range.... but anywhere there would be at least something, better than their current NOTHING being offered)
However if they were to go down that path, maybe perhaps I'd rather they just stuck with m4/3 and S35 sensors?! (like the JVC LS300) Depends on where they position this so called "FF-GH4", if it is priced more like a C100 (thus keep with S35 and m4/3) or going after the F5 (then heck, go FF and a new "Panny-FZ" mount!).
Looking forward to those F5 cameras hitting the second hand market when everybody rushes to buy an F7! ;-)
Paul schefz
Well-known member
a sony f7 or whatever it will be called is at least a year away....the FS7 is a hit, the FS5 is not out yet, the F5/F55 are getting upgrades and somehow seem to be getting more popular now then when they came out....but to be fair, the F5 has gone through several upgrades and the F55 is just higher priced.....
unless the ursa 4.6 is really the wonder cam it looks to be on paper (when it actually ships) there is no competition for the F5....specs or features....and now price....
unless the ursa 4.6 is really the wonder cam it looks to be on paper (when it actually ships) there is no competition for the F5....specs or features....and now price....
+1
And NOW they can milk the most money out of it- all the tech is cheaper when it came out.
Aside of the ever present electronic trends - faster/cheaper/more power efficient processors, faster/cheaper media, etc. - the photo-video industry has its own directions. One of them is bigger sensors. It's Sony's aim to bring full frame to the masses - i.e., a sub-$1,000 model and they're almost there with the 24 MPX A7 retailing for $1,100 - making it virtually impossible to bring in an MFT or even APS-C hybrid at a premium price point. And these models is what provides the economy of scale for these giant Japanese conglomerates. In other words, it makes far more sense for them to make - let's say - three different models with the same sensor but different features than to make three different models with three completely different sensors. This all points toward "everything in Full Frame" from now on.
The other factor here is the video quest for 8K (and beyond). Panasonic admitted to wanting it on their MFT's but running into various engineering (mainly having to do with diffraction) issues. Up the sensor size and many of these problems disappear.
Put two and two together and the drive toward both FF and 8K looks obvious. And none of F 5/55/65 is full frame. And, when the consumer/enthusiast models such as A7SII an A7RII are full frame, then the high end production models should be full frame (or better) too and the economies of scale are just one factor at play here.
And to support the above notions, the current top of the line cameras are almost there with Alexa65 being 6K Medium Format and Red Weapon 8K Full Frame.
Now, who thinks that Sony will cede the medium Format superiority to ARRI, let alone FF to Red? Who thinks that Panasonic will be content with only making inexpensive MFT models? Me neither.
The other factor here is the video quest for 8K (and beyond). Panasonic admitted to wanting it on their MFT's but running into various engineering (mainly having to do with diffraction) issues. Up the sensor size and many of these problems disappear.
Put two and two together and the drive toward both FF and 8K looks obvious. And none of F 5/55/65 is full frame. And, when the consumer/enthusiast models such as A7SII an A7RII are full frame, then the high end production models should be full frame (or better) too and the economies of scale are just one factor at play here.
And to support the above notions, the current top of the line cameras are almost there with Alexa65 being 6K Medium Format and Red Weapon 8K Full Frame.
Now, who thinks that Sony will cede the medium Format superiority to ARRI, let alone FF to Red? Who thinks that Panasonic will be content with only making inexpensive MFT models? Me neither.
poormanwally
Member
Sony would of course say the drop on the F5 is "just a promo" but a $10k promo discount for $25k of merchandise? That's not a promo, that's inventory that needs to clear out. Without this drop, Sony couldn't get their retailers to pick up the next camera without taking a huge hit on the remaining inventory. They'll wait to release the new top tier cameras until they clear out enough inventory. Otherwise, what retailer would do business with them again?
Well said. I feel the 8k shift coming too, it does seem like camera tech has been in a time of upheavals for a little while now. It's like once they spent all the money on development for 4k, they realized how easy it would be to just extrapolate it. For the high end cameras it makes great sense, since only deep pockets could afford all the support structure for 8k anyway. It hurts my brain to think about data wrangling for a day's worth of 8k footage. Although I think I recall "House of Cards" was mastered in 6k? Couldn't have been easy for them either. I don't think the rest of the support is caught up to the resolution game though. I suppose it will eventually. But what's the point of 8k if the camera isn't stabilized anyway? I don't remember where I saw it, but Arri had a slide presentation outlining effective resolution when the camera is moving, and it pretty much negates the high resolution unless the shutter is faster and the camera is stabilized.
And do you think Sony will replace all the cinealta with 8k, or just their flagship? Considering how underpowered the current cameras are, to run 8k what do you think that'll do to the price point?
Well said. I feel the 8k shift coming too, it does seem like camera tech has been in a time of upheavals for a little while now. It's like once they spent all the money on development for 4k, they realized how easy it would be to just extrapolate it. For the high end cameras it makes great sense, since only deep pockets could afford all the support structure for 8k anyway. It hurts my brain to think about data wrangling for a day's worth of 8k footage. Although I think I recall "House of Cards" was mastered in 6k? Couldn't have been easy for them either. I don't think the rest of the support is caught up to the resolution game though. I suppose it will eventually. But what's the point of 8k if the camera isn't stabilized anyway? I don't remember where I saw it, but Arri had a slide presentation outlining effective resolution when the camera is moving, and it pretty much negates the high resolution unless the shutter is faster and the camera is stabilized.
And do you think Sony will replace all the cinealta with 8k, or just their flagship? Considering how underpowered the current cameras are, to run 8k what do you think that'll do to the price point?
Bassman2003
Veteran
Sony really seems to be firing on all cylinders and wanting to win. Panasonic just is not acting like a company that wants to win. The GH line is their area of most energy and it is a still camera. The MFT format is what it is, compromised as resolutions get higher. This sensor size is great for the DVX200 but they decided to put a slow-ish lens on it with weak codecs. Crickets for the space that Sony and Blackmagic are owning right now even though so many people (including myself) prefer Panasonic cameras. They seem to be leaving potential customers at the alter. Can't understand why but Sony just made the AF-200!! 
What is even more crazy to me is if Panasonic released a high end FF stills/video camera. Talk about late to the party and not playing to your strengths. If they were going to eat crow all along and stray from MFT they could have continued with the AF line and eaten everybody's lunch already. Instead you are going to compete with Canon, Sony and Nikon for FF still turf? Seems like a stretch to me.
What is even more crazy to me is if Panasonic released a high end FF stills/video camera. Talk about late to the party and not playing to your strengths. If they were going to eat crow all along and stray from MFT they could have continued with the AF line and eaten everybody's lunch already. Instead you are going to compete with Canon, Sony and Nikon for FF still turf? Seems like a stretch to me.
I made (educated) guesses on Sony replacements in their F-line. F65 will/could/should be followed up with the medium format camera, as Sony already makes an MF sensor for Pentax 645D. It will need to be tweaked obviously, as Pentax is only capable of 1080p, but that part should be doable too. To separate the models then, the F55 follow up might slot in aa FF 6K or 4K RGB and F5 as an s35 4K with a Q67 type sensor. Presuming the F5II (or F7) will compete against C300 MKII in the $15,000-$20,000 price range, having a Q67 from F65 should be a major advantage.
FWIW, Canon just demoed its 8K camera prototype and is aiming at 2018 for the release. Theirs has all sorts of configurations, from the narrative to the ENG and studio but, obviously, a lot can change in two-three years.
Well, Panasonic just released a Leica SL! OK, it's not 100% Panasonic but, to me, it seems a lot more than dipping its toes in the water.Sony really seems to be firing on all cylinders and wanting to win. Panasonic just is not acting like a company that wants to win. The GH line is their area of most energy and it is a still camera. The MFT format is what it is, compromised as resolutions get higher. This sensor size is great for the DVX200 but they decided to put a slow-ish lens on it with weak codecs. Crickets for the space that Sony and Blackmagic are owning right now even though so many people (including myself) prefer Panasonic cameras. They seem to be leaving potential customers at the alter. Can't understand why but Sony just made the AF-200!!
What is even more crazy to me is if Panasonic released a high end FF stills/video camera. Talk about late to the party and not playing to your strengths. If they were going to eat crow all along and stray from MFT they could have continued with the AF line and eaten everybody's lunch already. Instead you are going to compete with Canon, Sony and Nikon for FF still turf? Seems like a stretch to me.
As to GH5 - the available technology can squeeze a lot more out of the MFT than DVX200 does. 8K may be too much for it but a 22-24 MPX BSI sensor with a oversampled 4K from 17.6 MPX (the same as F65 conceptually, albeit with a traditional Bayer pattern) and a 10-bit internal/external recording would really work both as a hybrid stills/video cam for a lot of people.
And one has to assume that, at some point, Panasonic will try to fill that void between DVX200 and Varicam 35 too.
Paul schefz
Well-known member
I think it is pretty obvious that the next Sony f6/f7 whatever will be 6 or probably 8k and FF....there is really little reason for it not to be....and as we can see with the canon 8k thing, it's not a problem to have 8k...the problem is to pull 8k off a sensor and make the data manageable....the canon thing obviously fails there and that is why they are saying it will take them a couple of years......Sony has a solid 3:1 raw workflow but that won't do with 8k.....red has it down with their red code but that is about all they have going for them...if the weapon is anything like dragon I doubt it will be more then a niche product......
its hard to say what Sony are working on most because it seems like what are they not pushing ahead? Variable ND, no problem....try variable OLPF! Who saw that one coming? But their XAVC is pretty amazing.....I would be happy if they would PE out with a 8k FF XAVC camera.....12 bit internal would be great.....
either way: it's all about getting the data off the sensor and on cards.....and being able to do so in a camera that comes in way under what arri and red can do.....and I honestly don't see that being a problem.....
its hard to say what Sony are working on most because it seems like what are they not pushing ahead? Variable ND, no problem....try variable OLPF! Who saw that one coming? But their XAVC is pretty amazing.....I would be happy if they would PE out with a 8k FF XAVC camera.....12 bit internal would be great.....
either way: it's all about getting the data off the sensor and on cards.....and being able to do so in a camera that comes in way under what arri and red can do.....and I honestly don't see that being a problem.....
An offset blur of just one pixel will then mean HALF the resolution! Will need to then double shutter speed to make sure that is avoided. But then we give up the 24p / 180degree shutter angle "film look".
You'll find you mean the 645Z sensor, as the 645D sensor is CCD and the 645D camera didn't do video.
I hope so!!! It is waaaaay past time for an AF200 to arrive. At the least chop off the DVX200 lens and market that with a m4/3 mount, then next step bring out something higher end with a S35 sensor and m4/3 or PL mount. (or even better, some kind of interchangeable mount like the Sony FZ)