C100: New C100 Coming down the line?

[combatentropy]

Digic chips are basically modded Texas Instrument chips and those sell for ~ $15 . . .

Can you specify your source for DIGIC chips being so simple and cheap? Because this is the opposite of what I have come to understand.

The DIGIC is an ASIC, the most expensive kind of chip there is. An ASIC (Application-Specific Integrated Circuit) is a custom-designed chip. Probably far fewer transistors than a recent processor from Intel or Qualcomm (which are like $30 each, give or take $25). But also drastically fewer units shipped. While Intels will find there way into all manner of desktops, laptops, and phones across the world, an ASIC will only ever be put in that particular company's cameras (and only in some of them).

Nevertheless the development costs are still millions of dollars. Jan Crittenden of Panasonic said that the chips in the DVX100 cost $5 million (post).

Not every camera comes with an ASIC. For example, the Ikonoskop did not. Nor the Digital Bolex. Nor the original Red One. But typically cameras from the established megacorporations do. That's why a $500 DSLR can compress an 18-megapixel RAW image into MPEG-4 instantaneously without loud fans. But a beefy PowerMac tower doing the same thing with PowerPC G4 processors took several minutes, while sounding like a 747. However, the DSLR cannot run Microsoft Word. That's the trade-off: A custom ASIC can do a few things, very efficiently. A general-purpose chip can do everything, given enough time. Both cost millions of dollars to make.

 

[Michael Thames]

No, it's way more involved. It's one company - Sony - manufacturing virtually every MFT C size and larger sensor for every camera/photo manufacturer. Some are Sony's own designs; some are third party and are only contracted to Sony for actual production. But that's where it only starts. On "new" markets, and let's assume the 4K cameras is a new market, the niches are designed not to overlap with others. Under a completely legal in Japan agreement, one manufacturer (let's say Panasonic) will be allotted a monopoly on a certain class of products (MFT ILC's such as GH4, G7, GX8, GX80/85, etc) and the higher end ENG style camcorders (DVX200, X1, etc.) while simultaneously refraining from entering another niche (say, pro tier/PL mount cameras under $15,000 a la FS-7 and C300MKII). The entire market from the entry level to the higher end will have appropriate models but they will be limited to a given manufacturer for a certain period of time (my estimate is two years, give or take delays in deliveries, design changes, etc). That's how Canon, Sony an Panasonic have huge gaps in their lineups, gaps that are filled by - guess who? - Canon, Sony and Panasonic. Except in a "reverse order" - where Sony exists, neither Panasonic nor Canon does. The end result here is that there are far fewer models on store shelves and each manufacturer has a far greater pricing power. The retailers generally don't raise a stink about it because they get their share of the spoils.

Now, compare this with the external recorder/monitor market, which is not that different in concept from the camera's. An external recorder is missing the sensor, the Bayer filter and the lens but, in case of Raw workflow, it picks up pretty much the rest. The external recorder/monitor business, taking out the seemingly no longer viable AJA models, has four strong competitors in Convergent Design, Sound/Video Devises, Atomos and BMD with tightly spaced options, from Ninjas for a few hundred dollars to CD Apollo for three grand. There are no gaps to speak of with models galore.

Thanks! That pretty much explains why no matter how hard we try, logic doesn't apply to Canon's new camera's they will always improve features etc. but never quite give the people what they want.

 

[DLD]

Can you specify your source for DIGIC chips being so simple and cheap? Because this is the opposite of what I have come to understand...

From what I have been able to find online last night, Digic chips are derived from the Texas Instruments OMAP line. OMAP's retail for $15-$20 per single sample and down to whatever one can negotiate (a $21 chip was discounted to $15, if purchased in quantity of 50 and larger). Any smartphone tear down would pretty much tell you the same thing.

http://www.sinlung.com/2012/05/cost-of-smartphone-component.html

 

[IanTheM]

From what I have been able to find online last night, Digic chips are derived from the Texas Instruments OMAP line. OMAP's retail for $15-$20 per single sample and down to whatever one can negotiate (a $21 chip was discounted to $15, if purchased in quantity of 50 and larger). Any smartphone tear down would pretty much tell you the same thing.

http://www.sinlung.com/2012/05/cost-of-smartphone-component.html

Chips themselves are never that expensive, but development runs into the millions. An Apple ARM chip can take $250 million to design (with costs going up higher with every die shrink), tape out and test, even if the actual wafter cuts just end up $20 a pop. That is if the chips are bespoke, and not just off the shelf TI stuff. I'm sure on the Magic Lantern forums there's an explanation of what exactly Digic chips are.

 

[DLD]

Ya but the cost of chip development is mostly born out by the chip manufacturers like TI, Infineon, STM, etc. Which is expected, as these processors bring them billions in revenue. A camera manufacturer, naturally, spends its R&D on cameras. The components may be "off the shelf" but putting the together into a working model also requires a large engineering group, whose project goals are set by the higher-ups in the executive suits.

Anyhow, I'll stick to my point that 5D MKIV could have been a lot more, especially in light of the firepower generated by Olympus EM-1 MKII, Panasonic GH5 and Sony A6500, units far below MKIV's price range.

 

[black film guild]

It will probably have 4k but will be 4:2.0 color.

 

[control4userguy]

^Dr. Wu, is that you?

 

[tobyhoffman]

When you're shooting a 100 million dollar Hollywood movie, 4K is not essential because you're most likely using an Alexa. But when your shooting a $5,000-$100,000 corporate video/commercial/short film, 4K is somehow "essential." Weird how that works.

This guy gets it...

Nonetheless it's what the people want and therefore we need to be able to shoot in it.

Step up canon!

 

[Eric Coughlin]

Nonetheless it's what the people want and therefore we need to be able to shoot in it.

Give clients the footage they deserve, not the footage they need right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL7PSlUuWPs

Speaking of The Dark Knight ending, here's a BTS photo of me doing Steadicam filming the kid (Nathan Gamble) who played Lt. Gordon's son in that scene. Filming with the C300 Mark II in 1080p for this.

Teleprompter Steadicam setup for that shoot.

 

[laverdir]

Nice light stand on the left, what model is it?

 

[Eric Coughlin]

Nice light stand on the left, what model is it?

Can't say. I've already heard at least two complaints from that light stand about grips wanting to grip it.

 

[control4userguy]

Appears at least one individual doesn't mind using it...

 

[brettsherman]

and their developments in DPAF will end up industry defining if they keep progressing it right.

I have to say that comparing my C300 MkI (first generation DPAF) to the Sony A6500 in AF. The A6500 wins hands down, it isn't even close. I think there are a lot of improvements to DPAF in the MKII line that I'm not reflecting, but the touch screen AF is so incredibly powerful, that it is hard for me to see how Canon tops it in any way. My Canon DPAF never sticks on the subject and wants to change focus frequently. I have to toggle it on and off. With the A6500 I just leave AF on and it pretty much does what I want it to. If it doesn't I just point to the part of the picture I want to focus and I'm done. This works especially well on a gimbal, where you can't grab the focus ring. I wonder if all the worship for DPAF is from people who have never actually used the A6500. The question is will Sony adapt this technology in the next generation of video cameras. I don't know why they wouldn't.

Canon really shot their whole right foot off with the C300 II, despite how good the image quality is. The lack of 4K 60p will hamper all their lower priced models for years to come, unless they quickly release a C300 III or C500 II (which would piss a lot of people off, but save them marketshare in the end.) 60p is so useful on the non-narrative side of the market, that it makes the FS7 an easier sell. The C100 III having 4K 60p in any capacity would be a really egg on face moment for them.

I agree. I've pretty much decided my next camera is going to be 4K 60P ~150kbps. I'm waiting around to see what Canon comes up with. It just seems to me by waiting this long, they basically have to have 4K 60P. Or waiting for an FS5 MK II. FS7 is a non-starter with me because of the size and lack of good AF.

 

[drummondb]

I have to say that comparing my C300 MkI (first generation DPAF) to the Sony A6500 in AF. The A6500 wins hands down, it isn't even close. I think there are a lot of improvements to DPAF in the MKII line that I'm not reflecting, but the touch screen AF is so incredibly powerful, that it is hard for me to see how Canon tops it in any way. My Canon DPAF never sticks on the subject and wants to change focus frequently. I have to toggle it on and off. With the A6500 I just leave AF on and it pretty much does what I want it to. If it doesn't I just point to the part of the picture I want to focus and I'm done. This works especially well on a gimbal, where you can't grab the focus ring. I wonder if all the worship for DPAF is from people who have never actually used the A6500. The question is will Sony adapt this technology in the next generation of video cameras. I don't know why they wouldn't.

My experience has been the exact opposite. The C100's AF seems incredibly easy to use and intuitive to me. The a6500's various focus modes are a quite baffling. I'm sure I'll get better with practice, but it's nowhere as easy to pick up and use as the C100's DPAF.

 

[cpreston]

I have to say that comparing my C300 MkI (first generation DPAF) to the Sony A6500 in AF. The A6500 wins hands down, it isn't even close. I think there are a lot of improvements to DPAF in the MKII line that I'm not reflecting, but the touch screen AF is so incredibly powerful, that it is hard for me to see how Canon tops it in any way. My Canon DPAF never sticks on the subject and wants to change focus frequently. I have to toggle it on and off. With the A6500 I just leave AF on and it pretty much does what I want it to. If it doesn't I just point to the part of the picture I want to focus and I'm done. This works especially well on a gimbal, where you can't grab the focus ring. I wonder if all the worship for DPAF is from people who have never actually used the A6500. The question is will Sony adapt this technology in the next generation of video cameras. I don't know why they wouldn't.

I expect that the C300II and 5D IV versions of DPAF are much better since they use the entire sensor. Also, the DSLR's have touch screen and motion tracking.

 

[Michael Thames]

My experience has been the exact opposite. The C100's AF seems incredibly easy to use and intuitive to me. The a6500's various focus modes are a quite baffling. I'm sure I'll get better with practice, but it's nowhere as easy to pick up and use as the C100's DPAF.

I have to agree, what a pleasure the DPAF is on the C100 mkii. Effortless! I got the DPAF upgrade on the MKI as well but haven't compared them simply because I haven't used the MKI since I got the MKII. Been looking at getting a C300 MKI as well. New at $5000, but there are many used ones going for around $3000 with fairly low hours, and in good shape. Having 3 C-series cameras will be perfect for what I do.

I may have to hold off on that purchase since I'm getting a 70-200 2.8 II from Adorama tomorrow..... then I'll never need another lens!

 

[black film guild]

I think one will come down the line and it is going to be a great camera, the thing is, I think it is going to come in at around $7,999