Moire & Insect Eyes ??

G

George D.

Well-known member
I am VERY concerned about the moire problem when shooting video with a DSLR.

Will someone who is VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE on this please tell me if you think it will be a potential problem with shooting macro of insect heads and eyes.

Since the eyes of insects are broken into hundreds of facets which create a honeycomb-type pattern, it just may create problems with moire when shooting these with a DSLR like a Canon 5D Mark II.

I do not wish to invest $100.oo or $10,000.oo into a set up that would result in ruined macro shots because of this problem.

I'd appreciate any expert opinions and feedback concerning this.

Thanks.
 
I've seen aliasing in people's eyebrows and in their hair so I'd imagine the heads of insects might offer some issues with the line skipping.

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Well, here's the deal: if it's in sharp focus, it will alias. If it's not in focus, aliasing is not an issue.

ANYTHING that's in perfectly-sharp crisp focus, on a DSLR, WILL alias. Doesn't mean it'll moire, but it will be aliasing. Whether that aliasing is objectionable to you, or not, is your call. Chris's video of the drapes is a perfect example... at some distances the moire is nonexistent, at other distances it's overwhelming.

If you're concerned about it, I would strongly suggest getting a different type of camera for those shots. You can shoot macro on many cameras; practically any video camera can shoot macro if you use close-up lenses on them, so you could choose anything.
 
If you're very concerned about moire the GH1 seems to have less of a moire problem than the Canons do, and if you're going to be shooting macro, the 2x crop factor on a GH1 with a Macro lens might actually be really beneficial when getting up close and personal.
 
Probably a good idea would be to rent a 5D for a few days to test it out. It's the only way to really know for sure.
 
BradM said:
Probably a good idea would be to rent a 5D for a few days to test it out. It's the only way to really know for sure.
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That is the only way to know. Even if someone else finds it acceptable or even great, if you don't, then it won't work for you. So ideally you should find one to borrow or rent, and try it out, because only you will know if it meets your standards.

And if you do, let us know how it turns out!
 
my understanding - with some experience on professionally shooting clothes and fine weave wetsuits on filter free MF digital stills backs (moire hell) is that the issue is when the frequency of repetitions of detail in the image are of a similar size to the frequency of the lines on the sensor therefore the physical size of your subject is not relevant, the content is relevant

(they should spread the pixels out randomly like film grain !)

Therefore during your testing process you should vary the scale of the object in the frame to see the variance of the effect

(say with the wetsuits stepping back a step from the model cured the problem - but at 22mp we had quality real estate to play with)

Personally I would suggest for macro an EX3 might be better due to the DOF gains and extreme close up of say an EX3 and a macro nikkor - or even a proper grown up 2/3 camera if you have the budget

Shooting small product stills in my studio (dull factual products where sharp is good) I often use the 7d to gain DOF over the 5d - for motion my experiments at filming small in the studio I have loved the DOF of my EX1

S
 
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You should definitely test it out first if that's what you're going to be shooting.

My guess, though, is that the moire will not show up in many of your shots, and when it does, it won't ruin the shot or be noticeable to someone not looking for it.
 
George D. said:
I am VERY concerned about the moire problem when shooting video with a DSLR.

Will someone who is VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE on this please tell me if you think it will be a potential problem with shooting macro of insect heads and eyes.

Since the eyes of insects are broken into hundreds of facets which create a honeycomb-type pattern, it just may create problems with moire when shooting these with a DSLR like a Canon 5D Mark II.

I do not wish to invest $100.oo or $10,000.oo into a set up that would result in ruined macro shots because of this problem.

I'd appreciate any expert opinions and feedback concerning this.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Another issue to consider is that a large sensor HDSLR has shallow DOF. To get 100% magnification with your HDSLR you're going to have to be very close to your subject and the DOF will be a tiny little sliver. With a tripod, a stationary subject, and a lot of patience you may be able to get some in-focus macro stills but if your subject is moving it can be very very difficult. Dedicated video cameras will have smaller sensors and larger DOF, which will result in far fewer macro focusing problems.
 
noirist said:
Another issue to consider is that a large sensor HDSLR has shallow DOF. To get 100% magnification with your HDSLR you're going to have to be very close to your subject and the DOF will be a tiny little sliver. With a tripod, a stationary subject, and a lot of patience you may be able to get some in-focus macro stills but if your subject is moving it can be very very difficult. Dedicated video cameras will have smaller sensors and larger DOF, which will result in far fewer macro focusing problems.
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Thanks, but when you're talking about DOF, you're not telling me anything I don't know. I've been shooting macro for over 36 years on 16mm, 35mm, and medium format, so I know what's what in that regard.

It's the moire problem I am concerned about, NOT the DOF. And, since I posted this, I have learned from the BBC that it is an incredibly bad problem with DSLRs, especially the Canon 5D Mark II, and it is not at all acceptable for HDTV production. So, for our purposes, that puts it in the trash.
 
He's saying that if you were used to using a 1/3" video camera, you might be surprised when you find out how incredibly shallow the DOF is on a 5D, and whereas that's true in normal circumstances it might become extremely difficult to manage in a macro situation.

And since you're on DVXUser, he was making the assumption that you were probably used to working with a 1/3" (or even 2/3") video camera.
 
George D. said:
Thanks, but when you're talking about DOF, you're not telling me anything I don't know. I've been shooting macro for over 36 years on 16mm, 35mm, and medium format, so I know what's what in that regard.

It's the moire problem I am concerned about, NOT the DOF. And, since I posted this, I have learned from the BBC that it is an incredibly bad problem with DSLRs, especially the Canon 5D Mark II, and it is not at all acceptable for HDTV production. So, for our purposes, that puts it in the trash.
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Now that it seems for your project, a DSLR just isn't going to get you what you are looking for ( according to BBC and National Geo )... what camera will you look at using ? Or what camera would you be using normally for your work as you stated?
 
BradM said:
Now that it seems for your project, a DSLR just isn't going to get you what you are looking for ( according to BBC and National Geo )... what camera will you look at using ? Or what camera would you be using normally for your work as you stated?
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Thanks Brad.

I have come to realize that what you say is true. A DSLR will not work for us.

We are actually waiting for the release of the Scarlet Camera by RED, and have the money saved up for it's purchase. But, we can't wait forever, especially since they will not give a release date and it keeps getting extended and extended. So, we need something in the meantime.

As a freelance cinematographer, in the past I have always shot cinema with 16mm, 35mm, and 70mm "film" cameras, but film is dead, whether anyone wants to believe it or not. The writing is on the wall, and it's "old" technology. We want to move into the world of "new" technology so we can keep up with the competition for HDTV production.

We are currently looking at the Sony EX3 to shoot with for at least awhile until the much better Scarlet comes out, which is EXACTLY the kind of camera we need for our kind of work.
 
moire really cannot be worked around without screwing with focus, and cannot be corrected in post. it is not so prevalent in digital photography due to the AA filter, which essentially blurs the image slightly before it hits the sensor, but the video modes of most DSLR's counter with pixel skipping/line skipping etc.

aside from CMOS issues, moire is another issue i cannot afford to have ruin a shot. for one of my personal cameras, i had the AA filter removed, and the results are MUCH sharper than a 5D MkII, but the added moire makes it useable only in very particular situations.
 
George D. said:
As a freelance cinematographer, in the past I have always shot cinema with 16mm, 35mm, and 70mm "film" cameras, but film is dead, whether anyone wants to believe it or not.
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Click to expand...

what I actually meant was... not which size but which actual cameras did you use?
 
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