Other: Just ordered a new camera...
- Thread starter starcentral
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Spartacus
Veteran
All tough I also wouldn't front any money:
As a concept I think it's great. Imagine being able to exchange your Ursa Mini 4K "front module" with a 4.6K one - simply by getting it in the mail, "clicking" it on and updating the firmware.
I always hear from colleagues shooting DSLRs, they love being able to simply swap one part of their rig for sth new with better feature. Sell the Blade, get a pixE. Sell the 5D, get an A7s aso...
Although a closed eco-system isn't as flexible as this, you theoretically gain loosing the clutter of dangling cables and the potential hick-ups of products from various manufacturers not playing along smoothly enough.
As a concept I think it's great. Imagine being able to exchange your Ursa Mini 4K "front module" with a 4.6K one - simply by getting it in the mail, "clicking" it on and updating the firmware.
I always hear from colleagues shooting DSLRs, they love being able to simply swap one part of their rig for sth new with better feature. Sell the Blade, get a pixE. Sell the 5D, get an A7s aso...
Although a closed eco-system isn't as flexible as this, you theoretically gain loosing the clutter of dangling cables and the potential hick-ups of products from various manufacturers not playing along smoothly enough.
starcentral
Veteran
There were very few people who didn't think RED was crazy back in 2006.
What I'm saying is (and I agree with what you said) is that here we are 10 years later in 2016 and with all the tech that does exist, many people still doubt some company with money can come along and make a decent camera.
We obviously don't know if this Craft camera will be any good, and knowing how other companies have tried to make a camera and sell it we all pretty much remain skeptic. I'd be surprised if they deliver in December like they say they will.
Anyway I'm along for the ride.
Clermond
Veteran
not all technic exists. No one built a modular system up to now. That's really interesting and challenging too.
Building a small action set for a gimbal or a drone and a big cinema set just from one camera. Having the same
quality for all these applications, no more need to match different cameras.
The idea is great but I will wait until somebody has it in his hands.
Building a small action set for a gimbal or a drone and a big cinema set just from one camera. Having the same
quality for all these applications, no more need to match different cameras.
The idea is great but I will wait until somebody has it in his hands.
Reminds me of this:
https://www.apertus.org/axiom
With all the respect to Craft I think open source os camera will be next revolution. Just imagine custom menus, apps etc.
Craft looks very similar to Red with dmsc opened to third party manufacturers but with brain remained closed to any programming.
Dennis, you're a brave man but I wish you'd gone with Axiom
With all your enormous knowledge you could push this concept further by giving developers suggestions.
Maybe you could still swap your deposit?
https://www.apertus.org/axiom
With all the respect to Craft I think open source os camera will be next revolution. Just imagine custom menus, apps etc.
Craft looks very similar to Red with dmsc opened to third party manufacturers but with brain remained closed to any programming.
Dennis, you're a brave man but I wish you'd gone with Axiom
With all your enormous knowledge you could push this concept further by giving developers suggestions. Maybe you could still swap your deposit?
Last edited:
roxics
Veteran
Reminds me of this:
https://www.apertus.org/axiom
With all the respect to Craft I think open source os camera will be next revolution. Just imagine custom menus, apps etc.
Craft looks very similar to Red with dmsc opened to third party manufacturers but with brain remained closed to any programming.
Dennis, you're a brave man but I wish you'd gone with Axiom
Maybe you could still swap your deposit?
Those seem more like cameras for engineers rather than shooters. They don't appear to be finished ready-to-shoot products with internal recording and their prices aren't great considering.
Bassman2003
Veteran
It always comes around to what you are shooting. For me, the sensor in a box design is only useful for interviews and scripted work. Anything that requires a lot of "camera work" I would rather have something from the big boys with a viewfinder and everything else.
Is the deposit refundable? I did not read that question in the FAQ.
Is the deposit refundable? I did not read that question in the FAQ.
BrianMurphy
Veteran
There is lots of info now out there on this camera. I think Denis has made a smart move, supporting them and getting the word out at the same time. Up here you can buy a lotto ticket for $5 bucks and many of us do it every week and usually buy two and never win a damn thing, His $500. is refundable according to the website. The total cost of the camera is very little when you consider what they are saying they'll deliver. So Denis, I may very well spring for $500. myself and give up buying lotto tickets. The odds of getting something definitely seem better.
starcentral
Veteran
agree with roxics, I definitely don't want a sensor mounted with plastic stand-offs wired to a breadboard etc.. that seems like a hobby bench camera and not very practical. With Craft first and foremost you're going for the chassis and snap-together design. The image from the sensor is obviously going to be most important.
bassman- it's in the FAQ. they will refund your deposit at anytime if you want but discourage it because likely they want accurate numbers of interested parties that will help them as they begin making investments.
brian- I have nothing to lose, well I guess $500 if its a scam and I never hear back from anyone. Oh well I will just write it off, whatever. Thing is 10 years ago RED did the same thing with $1000 deposits when they announced the RED ONE. That's right, some billionaire who owned a sunglasses company was going to make a video camera that would put FILM out of business. How stupid did that sound 10 years ago?
I wouldn't exactly call myself smart, it's a gamble alright, but if this camera delivers even 12 stops in RAW or Log then I have a camera with global shutter I can use it along side or in place of my F55 for more compact or risky environments. I've been saying lately how badly I just want a sensor in a box that records RAW, this is probably it and it's cheap.
I hope more people support Craft.
bassman- it's in the FAQ. they will refund your deposit at anytime if you want but discourage it because likely they want accurate numbers of interested parties that will help them as they begin making investments.
brian- I have nothing to lose, well I guess $500 if its a scam and I never hear back from anyone. Oh well I will just write it off, whatever. Thing is 10 years ago RED did the same thing with $1000 deposits when they announced the RED ONE. That's right, some billionaire who owned a sunglasses company was going to make a video camera that would put FILM out of business. How stupid did that sound 10 years ago?
I wouldn't exactly call myself smart, it's a gamble alright, but if this camera delivers even 12 stops in RAW or Log then I have a camera with global shutter I can use it along side or in place of my F55 for more compact or risky environments. I've been saying lately how badly I just want a sensor in a box that records RAW, this is probably it and it's cheap.
I hope more people support Craft.
But how many people knew all the economic factors involved? Most people don't but an investor must. It's like one of those smartphone tear down sites that tell you how much a Galaxy or an iPhone components cost (usually around 1/3rd of retail). Jannard must have found out that from the business perspective, given the cost of suitable sensors and processors, the component cost was not prohibitive and it was going to keep going down with time. And the margins were still going to be there to deliver a breakeven point at a relatively small volume of pieces sold.
As a side note. Let's look at ARRI. Alexa65 is going for ~ $3,000/day rental or about three times the rate for Alexa. Roughly prorated, this gives the 65 a quarter of a million retail value. Red Weapon 6K has basically the same specs and is sold for $60,000. Are their component costs that different? I would say not.
ectobuilder
Veteran
My feeling is we need version 3 to get this camera to where most of us need it to be.
The first two iterations will heavily focus on the modularity concept rather than the image quality and usability in my opinion.
The first two iterations will heavily focus on the modularity concept rather than the image quality and usability in my opinion.
starcentral
Veteran
From their Facebook page;
That camera already exists bud, its called the bmmcc(micro cinema camera). It only costs $995 and is available now
Good luck though.
starcentral
Veteran
Sure but BM micro camera is not super35mm, 4K, or global shutter.
ozmorphasis
Well-known member
That looks Photoshopped to me.
Bassman2003
Veteran
Now that you point it out, it does have a certain Photoshop quality to it. I hope all is right with this.
Ben Scott
Veteran
Hope it all comes to fruition, but if a huge company like BM can't get it right, and slick young Kickstarter upstarts can't really get it right with the Bolex, maybe we just need to accept how hard this **** is to get right.
And then to get right at an absurdly low price point that cannot be achieved by companies with the purchasing power of Red/Sony etc?
And then to get right at an absurdly low price point that cannot be achieved by companies with the purchasing power of Red/Sony etc?
Viddovation
Veteran
Been lurking for a bit on this thread.
Certainly, people laughed at Red when they started up, and they're not laughing now - there were definitely a lot of stumbling blocks, but say what you will about Red, they are a genuine contender in the marketplace.
It's possible that Craft is for real, and that they will deliver, and if you have $500 to blow on lottery tickets, putting it into the Craft reservation queue early might pay dividends - it looks like they intend to offer perks to early supporters similar to how Red has.
Making cameras got easier to moment there were no tape mechanisms. Supporting tape cassettes takes a lot of engineering know how, and probably got tied up in additional patents to boot. By contrast, SD card slots and the like can essentially just be slapped on a circuit board. But even so, it all comes back to one crucial component - the image sensor. There are only a limited number of companies on the planet that can produce cutting edge CMOS and CCD imagers (and the production lines for CCD imagers have been shutting down). Sony is one such company. But of course, they keep their very best imagers reserved for use in Sony branded products, and sell other companies the ones that tend to be a generation behind.
Given that companies like Red and Blackmagic Design have seen frequent scheduling delays and image quality issues particularly when first launching their original camera products, I'd have to express concern that the same will happen with Craft, even in a best case scenario. And it's been discussed before on this forum and on the F35 one that color science is something that all of these companies have struggled with, and that perhaps only Arri has mastered (although, this is subjective, and opinions do vary!).
And I'll broach one more concern. This isn't the first company to try a modular approach. Perhaps more thoroughly modular, but not the first. Modular systems rely on designing a communication protocol between the modules. Depending on your hardware, and what signals you're sending, you're going to need a certain number of data pins, and ground. And, you're going to use one or more discreet communication protocols, operating at specific speed, configured on specific pins. And, to prevent dummies from ruining thousands of dollars of gear in a few seconds, you're going to design a unique physical mount, so only compatible gear will fit together (preventing idiots from electrically connecting pins together that would destroy the equipment).
The problem is, technology moves forward, quickly. And often, engineers find it difficult or impossible to add new capabilities to a prior modular system. Often it's a matter of increased data flow, and neither enough bus speed or available pins to send it over. And they might be able to make a whole set of 2.0 gear on the same mount and same pin configuration, but running at a new speed - but it might not be compatible with the old system then...
Modular is tough. And it's not genuinely future proof, because we can't anticipate what the future will bring.
For me, without seeing footage or color science, it simply doesn't matter. I'll let others like starcentral try it out first. If it's genuine and better than the competition and good for my business, I'll pay full ticket or buy used once it's on the market and they have the bugs worked out.
Certainly, people laughed at Red when they started up, and they're not laughing now - there were definitely a lot of stumbling blocks, but say what you will about Red, they are a genuine contender in the marketplace.
It's possible that Craft is for real, and that they will deliver, and if you have $500 to blow on lottery tickets, putting it into the Craft reservation queue early might pay dividends - it looks like they intend to offer perks to early supporters similar to how Red has.
Making cameras got easier to moment there were no tape mechanisms. Supporting tape cassettes takes a lot of engineering know how, and probably got tied up in additional patents to boot. By contrast, SD card slots and the like can essentially just be slapped on a circuit board. But even so, it all comes back to one crucial component - the image sensor. There are only a limited number of companies on the planet that can produce cutting edge CMOS and CCD imagers (and the production lines for CCD imagers have been shutting down). Sony is one such company. But of course, they keep their very best imagers reserved for use in Sony branded products, and sell other companies the ones that tend to be a generation behind.
Given that companies like Red and Blackmagic Design have seen frequent scheduling delays and image quality issues particularly when first launching their original camera products, I'd have to express concern that the same will happen with Craft, even in a best case scenario. And it's been discussed before on this forum and on the F35 one that color science is something that all of these companies have struggled with, and that perhaps only Arri has mastered (although, this is subjective, and opinions do vary!).
And I'll broach one more concern. This isn't the first company to try a modular approach. Perhaps more thoroughly modular, but not the first. Modular systems rely on designing a communication protocol between the modules. Depending on your hardware, and what signals you're sending, you're going to need a certain number of data pins, and ground. And, you're going to use one or more discreet communication protocols, operating at specific speed, configured on specific pins. And, to prevent dummies from ruining thousands of dollars of gear in a few seconds, you're going to design a unique physical mount, so only compatible gear will fit together (preventing idiots from electrically connecting pins together that would destroy the equipment).
The problem is, technology moves forward, quickly. And often, engineers find it difficult or impossible to add new capabilities to a prior modular system. Often it's a matter of increased data flow, and neither enough bus speed or available pins to send it over. And they might be able to make a whole set of 2.0 gear on the same mount and same pin configuration, but running at a new speed - but it might not be compatible with the old system then...
Modular is tough. And it's not genuinely future proof, because we can't anticipate what the future will bring.
For me, without seeing footage or color science, it simply doesn't matter. I'll let others like starcentral try it out first. If it's genuine and better than the competition and good for my business, I'll pay full ticket or buy used once it's on the market and they have the bugs worked out.
starcentral
Veteran
Other attempts may have not been successful but I have faith in these guys and in reality when I see what Kinefinity is doing and the image quality I just have to forget the past or feeling that history might repeat itself. If these guys were smart they made the prototype a year ago with printed plastic and got it working, and now already getting ready for production. But everyone assumes it's just an announcement and specs on paper. You/we could be wrong about that.
The argument against being modular I don't understand too much. The weakness of RED, Sony and others is the fact that the camera works for some folks but not all. It all depends who's intending to use it. How many posts on forums do we read about buyers having to trade off features ie. internal ND, specific ports or connectors, etc..
So I see a modular camera as FAR more future proof than a complete box chassis because for example you can replace the sensor module and keep the other bits. This system feels thought out from the ND sled to being able to add or remove modules depending on what you're shooting. As for connectors etc.. it is definitely possible to hit a limit with them right off the bat and that's a very excellent point. Hopefully they've factored that in and selected something that works future-proofed up to "16K" speeds for example. Also that speedy connector only needs to exist between the sensor module and "brain" module however, not the entire chain. This is identical to how the F5/F55 works when attaching the RAW module.
(For those who don't know the base Sony F-series body is actually the body, snap-on power module similar to Craft, and then you mount your battery. To shoot with the RAW module (the R5) you actually take off the power module and snap on the R5 RAW module.)
The argument against being modular I don't understand too much. The weakness of RED, Sony and others is the fact that the camera works for some folks but not all. It all depends who's intending to use it. How many posts on forums do we read about buyers having to trade off features ie. internal ND, specific ports or connectors, etc..
So I see a modular camera as FAR more future proof than a complete box chassis because for example you can replace the sensor module and keep the other bits. This system feels thought out from the ND sled to being able to add or remove modules depending on what you're shooting. As for connectors etc.. it is definitely possible to hit a limit with them right off the bat and that's a very excellent point. Hopefully they've factored that in and selected something that works future-proofed up to "16K" speeds for example. Also that speedy connector only needs to exist between the sensor module and "brain" module however, not the entire chain. This is identical to how the F5/F55 works when attaching the RAW module.
(For those who don't know the base Sony F-series body is actually the body, snap-on power module similar to Craft, and then you mount your battery. To shoot with the RAW module (the R5) you actually take off the power module and snap on the R5 RAW module.)
Viddovation
Veteran
I mean, not to play therapist here, but it sounds like you're trying to convince yourself.
As my post makes clear, I'm open minded - Craft may be successful. But with so many cameras on the market today, able to be shipped and start doing paid work tomorrow, I see no good reason for me or most other working professional to back this upstart in their pre-release phase. If they put out a camera and it's combination of form, image, features, and price is right for my business, then I'll buy. Otherwise, no.
And no matter what, the Craft camera will still work for some, not all. Did you even notice yet there is no viewfinder? And the LCD has no hood for glare? No single hammer is all things to all carpenters. No single camera is all things to all videographers and cinematographers.