GH5 How interested are you in a GH6 anymore?

[Thomas Smet]

First of all, it'd make no sense for Panasonic to release an MFT model that priced higher than a full frame model.

Second, with the latest firmware updates, S1 can record the external ProRes Raw at $2,500 (+ the recorder cost). An MFT model would then have to stay way under that S1+Recorder package and try to come close on the image quality. Likewise, A7IV - rumored to come out at $2,500 - should have 10-bit too and full frame.

Third, at even $1,500-$1,700, it'd have to match the APS-C Fuji XT-4 and the upcoming Sony A6900 (or whatever it will be called). And Canon might throw a monkey wrench here as well with a full frame sub-$2,000 unit too. As it is, EOS R already does the external ProRes Raw to Ninja V for about $2,400. And it does a great auto focus too.

The GH5 right now currently has a $1,600 list price and it still sells. Well we think it still sells. Its actually makes sense for a newer mk2 model to be around that same price or $100 more. Assuming it actually does something better. Right now the better looks like a 4:2:0 10bit 4k 60p mode which is one of the biggest gripes about the GH5. Its hard to get good HLG or v-log with 4k 60p without getting an external recorder. At least this model finally means good dynamic range at a high 4k frame rate.

The leaked specs also don't seem to mention much about the slow motion processing methods. With any hope a newer processor can handle slow motion with the same scaling as HD formats up to 60p on the GH5. Yielding really good scaled HD slow motion would be another big boost over the GH5 and might really justify the extra $100.

 

[Thomas Smet]

Are you sure there is no raw output to the Ninja? Since the updated format specs (50/60p 4:2:0 10bit) sound like the S5 Specs (afaik) I thought it might have the same HDMI raw recording option (of course in lower res).
I know it is not mentioned in the leaked specs, but does it mean it's not possible?

For me the GH5 II sounds interesting, because I still have my GH4, have the 12-35, the nocticron 42.5 1.2 and the 14-140, and the GH5 II might be the affordable upgrade with updated specs.
I almost exclusively use it for private stuff as a hybrid camera, but I work as a motion designer/ VFXer for television, a soI sometimes use it for testing stuff or behind the scenes footage.
It would make a big difference for me if it did support external raw, so i could borrow a ninja if I did want to use it for more important stuff...

The alternative would be to jump to the S5, but apart from an 35mm 2.0 Nikon AI/s, a damaged canon 1.8 nifty fifty and some worthless ebay cheap glass i would have to spend serious money on Lenses.

The problem with external raw on the GH5 is the 5.2k sensor. Would users be ok with 5.2k raw or a cropped 4k mode in order to get external raw. The GH5s just screams to get external raw support with its 1:1 native 4k sensor.

Its also upsetting that all the other cameras added external raw with firmware and the GH5 users are expected to buy a whole new camera that is more or less the same just to get that maybe new feature. I will bet you $5.00 right now that is going to be a major negative criticism of this new camera if that is the case and may actually drive more users away from Panasonic. Very few of us are going to sell a GH5 just to get a GH5s for that feature. Especially when many of us don't really need raw or want to mess around with an external recorder for that. If one really wants raw there are much better and more affordable options out there.

 

[nogohome]

The problem with external raw on the GH5 is the 5.2k sensor. Would users be ok with 5.2k raw or a cropped 4k mode in order to get external raw. The GH5s just screams to get external raw support with its 1:1 native 4k sensor.

Its also upsetting that all the other cameras added external raw with firmware and the GH5 users are expected to buy a whole new camera that is more or less the same just to get that maybe new feature. I will bet you $5.00 right now that is going to be a major negative criticism of this new camera if that is the case and may actually drive more users away from Panasonic. Very few of us are going to sell a GH5 just to get a GH5s for that feature. Especially when many of us don't really need raw or want to mess around with an external recorder for that. If one really wants raw there are much better and more affordable options out there.

Yeah, I totally get that, and I would feel the same way if I had a GH5. But as an upgrade for a GH4, I find an upgdated GH5 which adds some missing features (4k 50/60 in 10bit, possible raw output?) pretty tempting.
And I wouldn't mind 5.2K raw at all if I needed it, but it would be an exception, for 99% of my usage I would be happy with 10bit internal formats.
Maybe it has a new processor/board that was needed to add those features. If I remember correctly, didn't the GH5 get some significant improvements via firmware updates?
I don't really think Panasonic expects to sell a lot of them to GH5 users, probably aiming more for people like me or people looking for a B camera or a second GH5.

 

[filmguy123]

Well, it’s certainly plausible for a m43 model to cost more than a FF model, but only if it’s doing something genuinely unique. How *likely* that is, is a seperate question. Unique, for example, might be a body with an organic sensor that has more resolution (8K) while still retaining better low light and dynamic range than an S5. Or per pixel dimming which is essential sensor level ND filtration. Or, a standard but modern sensor with physical or electronic ND, mini XLR, internal RAW, 4k120p 10-bit, superior IBIS, etc.

Well, plausible. Likely? At this point who knows. If we rule that out, it might mean that the GH6 is still a ways out and Panasonic needs a stop gap, or that the GH6 is a pipe dream.

The fact they are holding a press event seems to indicate that they see this as more than a spec bump undeserving of mention. If they try to make a bunch of hoopla about it, that doesn’t bode well. If the announcement is that “this is just for now - we are committed to m43 - stay tuned for more this fall” that’s better news.

At this point, hearing that Mitch has left Panasonic, and seeing an underwhelming GH5ii inbound announcement, and knowing that l Mount has so far under performed and Sony’s new cameras are very successful… well, it makes me nervous. And mostly just annoyed that Panasonic isn’t more aggressive about releasing updates. This GH5m2 last January for $1500 would have been a better move, and I would have expected a GH6, EVA2, and even an S1Hm2 soon.

Instead… this. Sigh. We’ll see what they say on the 19th…

 

[DLD]

The GH5 right now currently has a $1,600 list price and it still sells...

It's $1,300 retail. Which, to me, is a reasonable price for it. Could GH-5II move some units at $1,600? Possibly. Could a GH-6 move a lot of units at $2,000? It depends on the specs. A 41 MPX sensor (long published by Sony) with 8K should accomplish the task but probably at S1/S5 expense. And that's the rub.

My prediction is that the resolution for stills will be in the mid-high 20's. Maybe it'll have a full sensor readout, maybe it will line skip for video.

 

[Thomas Smet]

It's $1,300 retail. Which, to me, is a reasonable price for it. Could GH-5II move some units at $1,600? Possibly. Could a GH-6 move a lot of units at $2,000? It depends on the specs. A 41 MPX sensor (long published by Sony) with 8K should accomplish the task but probably at S1/S5 expense. And that's the rub.

My prediction is that the resolution for stills will be in the mid-high 20's. Maybe it'll have a full sensor readout, maybe it will line skip for video.

It's $1,300 on sale at B&H. If you look the normal price is $1,600. This sale price is conveniently timed to clear inventory since the mk2 is likely going to replace the GH5. Before this sale the GH5 was the normal price. I suspect the mk2 ill see similar sale prices at some point depending on how well it actually sells.

 

[Bassman2003]

I just don't get the strategy. If GH5 owners do bite and buy the MKII, then they will most likely not buy a GH6 because they just purchased a new camera. If GH5 owners are not the target, then who is left to buy the MKII? I can't imagine still shooters. A year after the GH5s this would have made sense but not now.

If it is the same sensor from the GH5 then who would want to buy a 5 year old sensor in a "new" camera? Maybe for an even trade in +$300 to bridge the gap to the GH6. I do not see any amount of internal noise reduction that would make the GH5 sensor equal to today's standards of light gathering/noise. It just seems a day late and a dollar short to me. If they have any chance of keeping goodwill the GH6 better have more flesh than "in development". Horrible customer management if you ask me. The GH5 was one of the most popular offerings universally and Panasonic just let all of that positive market share leak away.

 

[Thomas Smet]

I just don't get the strategy. If GH5 owners do bite and buy the MKII, then they will most likely not buy a GH6 because they just purchased a new camera. If GH5 owners are not the target, then who is left to buy the MKII? I can't imagine still shooters. A year after the GH5s this would have made sense but not now.

If it is the same sensor from the GH5 then who would want to buy a 5 year old sensor in a "new" camera? Maybe for an even trade in +$300 to bridge the gap to the GH6. I do not see any amount of internal noise reduction that would make the GH5 sensor equal to today's standards of light gathering/noise. It just seems a day late and a dollar short to me. If they have any chance of keeping goodwill the GH6 better have more flesh than "in development". Horrible customer management if you ask me. The GH5 was one of the most popular offerings universally and Panasonic just let all of that positive market share leak away.

Completely agree. I think its really meant for brand new users. The ones that would actually buy a GH5 next month. Now they get a slightly better model to purchase although from the look of it technically a GH5 with a slight extra firmware boost. I honestly don't get the strategy either. If a user was really planning on getting a GH5 its not like they needed an extra incentive. I'm not sure these leaked specs are enough incentive anyway. Its almost like was mentioned previously that they just needed to update the model due to parts availability. Products can sometimes only be mass produced for so long and maybe it was time to refresh the supply chain. Maybe the choice was either end the GH5 entirely or have a mk2.

I agree its pretty sad really. Many of us have been asking for a GH6 for at least two years now and its not like it was a mystery what we wanted. Panasonic kept hitting it out of the park with every new GH model . Well except for maybe the GH5S which was the first head scratcher product. Great camera but way too expensive for what it was. There is just very little point to buying a hybrid camera where the stills suck at 10 MP. If one truly wanted a camera just for video there were so many other options out there at a much lower price point. Not sure why Panasonic let that buzz just die out like they did. A GH6 timed right could have kept building on their momentum but they kind of blew it. Now I think it may be too late. I think this will send the message to the industry that Lumix at least in its m43 flavor may be done and this is a last ditch effort to trickle in sales and not throw in the towel.

As much as I think the S series cameras are great I'm just a tad disappointed Panasonic only seems to care about their FF products now. I realize it was new and exciting for them but it was kind of a giant middle finger to the m43 users.

I bought a Canon M6 mk2 and honestly I love it. Even the video look great. The stills are amazing with a 32 MP sensor. M43 will likely never do that. Even 20 MP may be a tad too much for m43. I was going to sell off my GH4 and m43 lenses but the GH4 makes a great permanent webcam with a Elgato HDMI capture device. I will eventually replace all my m43 lenses with EF lenses to use on the P4k I picked up for raw video. I really do think m43 may be dead to me now. Even if a GH6 does come out later I think it may be too late for me. I honestly can't think of a single reason a GH6 would make me ditch APS-C 32 MP for stills or internal Braw on the P4k

 

[roxics]

How sure are we that there is even a GH6 coming? This could be the last hurrah for the GH line. Panasonic's full frame line is probably a bit more future proof anyway.

I couldn't tell going through the specs but does this camera have a 10bit 4:2:2 1080p mode?

Also what is the big difference between 10bit 4:2:2 and 10bit 4:2:0?
I'm pretty sure UHD Blu-ray is 10bit 4:2:0, but that's a delivery format.

 

[filmguy123]

How sure are we that there is even a GH6 coming? This could be the last hurrah for the GH line.

Yeah. If they play up the GH5m2 at the May 19th event, or fail to indicate anything more coming, that is my fear too... I'll be watching closely.

 

[DLD]

Unless a company provides a clear product map - and the photo-video companies usually do this only for their lens lineup - the corporate strategy isn't clearly defined. Especially, since it's prone to change. In the Panasonic world, various product managers likely have varied interests in varied product categories - lower end MFT, higher end MFT, full frame, lower end professional, higher end professional, camcorders, streaming platforms, etc. At one time, presumably, some of those were part of one department; then they were rolled into a different group.

If the industry as a whole stabilizes at around five million units moved annually, then these managers will have a clearer idea of what they're up against. If the sales continue to slump ...

 

[jdv]

The GH5 was one of the most popular offerings universally and Panasonic just let all of that positive market share leak away.

Par for the course from Panny I'm afraid. They did the same with the very camera this site is named after, the DVX100, and then again with the GH5.

Put another way - how many EVA1's would Panasonic sold if it had a MFT mount and a $3000 price tag?

Answer is you'd probably own one right now. But you don't, and no one does... or will. (OK OK, if anyone on earth would own one it's readers here, but you get the point)

That costly SNAFU was swiftly followed by the decision to jump into full frame... with a very expensive camera and very few lenses to support it.

Other than for tax write off purposes, the GH5 II is wildly dumb concept; a camera out-classed by its competition even before it's officially announced.

Look at this whole thread and what real buyers wanted - essentially a GH5s with IBIS, BRAW/Prores, and phase detect AF. That's it, nothing more. If Panasonic had done just that, they would have had a giant hit 2 years ago.

Ah, what might have been.

Last point on this, and one touched on when speaking of road maps - it's very hard to invest in a company's products down the line (assuming Panasonic is still making cameras in 2 years, which at this point isn't a sure thing) when they constantly and consistently make dumb decisions more closed to related to camera conspiracies skits then any sort of real, adult, thinking.

 

[DLD]

The simultaneous move to full frame (mirrorless) by Panasonic and Nikon was to share the development and some production costs with Sony, while moving into a higher margin merchandise. There's an opinion that, while the smartphones may dominate the casual user universe, those who have enthusiasm in serious photography will purchase a full frame rather than an MFT camera. Besides, if one tracks the history of digital photography from the mid-90's to the current era, one can see the ever increasing sensor size and pixel count. Gordon Laing did a cute video a week or so ago about a mid-late 90's Sony Mavica with a 640x480 1/3" data collector. We've come a long way, baby.

 

[Retrospective]

Par for the course from Panny I'm afraid. They did the same with the very camera this site is named after, the DVX100, and then again with the GH5.

Or the Panasonic AF100! It was quite unique at the time yet they never capitalized on it.

 

[Ron Evans]

I bought my GH5 and GH5S to get UHD60P. At the time they were the best, lowest cost way of getting that and also HDMI 4:2:2 10bit to the Ninja V ( which I also have ) They are always on tripods. Personally have no need for IS of any kind and everything is manual focus. However times have changed and for me the next step is RAW of some kind. All directed to make shooting in the theatre easier for me. For audio 32bit float would remove the need for me to buy a Zoom F6. If I look now what to buy it would be a BM Pocket 6K Pro and a Zoom F6. First to go would be the GH5 and would likely keep the GH5S for my application. Never shot a still with either of them and not likely to for me they are video cameras. At the time for video the closest Sony camera was almost 3 times the price for the same video spec.

 

[jdv]

Or the Panasonic AF100! It was quite unique at the time yet they never capitalized on it.

It was a dope camera.

I so wanted the DVX200 to be better than it was... but that is another tale.

 

[ahalpert]

I feel like this thread has turned into a memorial service. And perhaps justifiably so

I own a GH2, GH4 and GH5. Briefly had an S1 then replaced it with an A7SIII. I still use the GH5 regularly and the pleasantness of the footage still surprises me every time. The GH4 still comes out when I need an additional 4K angle. The gh2 hasn't been powered on in a couple years but I always loved the quality of the stills from that camera when I used it for personal photos with wacky lenses, like old 16mm zooms that vignetted so much you could see the whole image circle and make circular compositions.

To be honest, Panny full frame mirrorless cameras are great and basically offer everything you'd ever want except PDAF. Certainly, the S1H found a loyal niche. Maybe people dont want to reinvest in full-frame lenses, but they'd be a great investment as long as they're adaptable with multiple lens mounts

 

[filmguy123]

Yeah, I mean, we're only several days away from seeing what they say at the May 19 official event. We should probably hold judgement until we have some more information and statements from the horse's mouth. We've all been mislead by companies before, but all of the statements from Panasonic in the last 2 years, including as recently as just several months ago, indicated a strong commitment to the platform. I'm concerned about the outlook like everyone, but still, a lot of premature eulogies.

 

[BobKo]

I still get great video from my GH5, and I have five Panasonic MFT lenses. Therefore, I am highly interested in improvements in Panasonic's MFT cameras. My wife also has a Panasonic GX8, and we swap lenses all the time. She specifically got an MFT camera because it was smaller/lighter than a Nikon APS-C camera, and she got tired of lugging around a big camera with big lenses -- and finds the GX8's quality to be just as good (if not better) than the photos from the last Nikon she had (D7000). And a bonus is that we use the GX8 to get a second angle when I'm shooting with the GH5. (4K video from the GX8 is pretty nice!)

So we're a Panasonic family, and I am definitely interested in the company's latest MFT cameras. I might not buy one immediately, but it will be on my wishlist.

 

[Thomas Smet]

While I have kind of moved on myself I do think some are a tad harsh about the GH5 being an inferior camera in the market today.

FF is not better, its different. It has as many negatives as does m43. Every format does. Sensor size is always a balance act.

The GH5 is still a top contender for a lot of users even though it is five years old. Thats tells us just how good of a camera it really is. Not every FF provides a solid 10bit 4:2:2 format yet or has mastered IBIS as well as Panasonic has. In fact after a year of extensive research I found the only DSLRs I feel are better than the GH5 are the S series Lumix cameras. Fuji was super close but its IBIS isn't as good. Lumix S series has one single flaw and thats really the auto focus which some of us just do not use. I went the Canon M6 mk2 route strictly because of the 32 MP sensor for stills and to have a dual pixel AF option as my 3.5 year old daughter starts getting into playing sports and my eyes are not as good as they once were. My other selling point was the 100% compatibility of EF lenses on the EF-M mount. Adapters are great but even Metabones sometimes has issues with electronic support and not every lens works the same. Honestly if Panasonic could fix the autofocus thing that so many seem obsessed with it would still be one of the best DSLRs on the market.

So no I don't think this means Lumix m43 is dead. The GH5 still sells and people still buy it. The same will be true of the GH5 mk2. The spec whores may not want it but their minds were kind of made up already anyway and have likely moved on years ago. One thing some of us have not factored in are those invested in m43 glass that will stick with m43 as long as they can. I almost bought a GH5 or G9 for this very reason. I just didn't want to move to Sony or Fuji and have to replace all my lenses with a mount that will only ever work with that manufacturer. I'm now investing slowly in EF lenses that I can use on my P4k with a Metabones or the M6 with 100% perfect performance. I can still use all my great m43 lenses with the P4k. I would have loved to stay with m43 for stills but I just couldn't beat 32 MP stills and the compactness of the M6.

I can see a lot of users invested in m43 glass to stick with m43 however for many years to come. Its not easy to just sell that all off and start over again assuming one can find a way to sell off all their m43 gear. Right now BMD cinema cameras use basically two lens mounts and that is not likely going to change. m43 and EF. Its thanks to cameras like the P4k that will keep the m43 lens market going as well.

I may even move back to m43 for stills. As much as I like the M6 I'm not opposed to getting a GH6 in the future and getting rid of the M6. I highly doubt m43 can do anything close to 32 MP however and I doubt Panasonic will use dual pixel AF anytime soon.