C300: Help me spend $15,000

[morgan_moore]

It seems your business is multicam.

C100 has 420 footy ?

Swapping to C200 420 with better af would be an upgrade.

And the C200 can be swapped to raw when doing more corporate, shorter form stuff or a personal project.

Doing a multicam long form gig on C100 and C300iii seems like they wont cut.

 

[rob norton]

And also, it's a major step up as far as potential clients. As I wrote earlier, none of my current clients care what camera I use. But I want to get clients who do care. I'm under no illusions that getting an expensive camera instantly gets me big clients. But it could open up doors that my current equipment can't (and the C200 and XF705 wouldn't).

You don't need to buy the camera to gauge interest. You can either pretend you've already purchased it to test the waters e.g. "we just upgraded to the c300 iii, LMK when you're ready to work on a project" or "I'm thinking about buying this camera, would you be interested/can I stay on your screen" etc. This also doubles as an excuse to reach out to existing clients or potential people you'd like to work for without sounding like you're desperate and looking for work.

PS I'd love to buy a c300 iii as well!

 

[Clermond]

...
First, this is a loan from the government because of the pandemic, so there are very specific requirements for how the money can be spent

I don't know if I get this right: it's a loan. That means you are in debt and you have to pay back the loan sooner or later? The difference to a credit from the bank is a longer payback period and less or no interest. Would you think about an invest of 15K without that pandemic support program?
I would be careful. You don't know how and when the business is coming back on before corona level. I buy gear only if there's a reasonable need of gear and a high plausibility that it will payoff in 2yrs.

(In the meanwhile I never buy gear with a credit anymore. I make monthly savings just for investments. Being 3 decades in the business I can tell you that it works well..)

 

[Guest]

You don't need to buy the camera to gauge interest. You can either pretend you've already purchased it to test the waters e.g. "we just upgraded to the c300 iii, LMK when you're ready to work on a project" or "I'm thinking about buying this camera, would you be interested/can I stay on your screen" etc. This also doubles as an excuse to reach out to existing clients or potential people you'd like to work for without sounding like you're desperate and looking for work.

PS I'd love to buy a c300 iii as well!

That's smart. It can take months before clients start asking fo the more expensive camera. Best to just say you have it, and then 6months later buy one if it is in demand.

Of course everyone will be excited about the "cool new camera", but when they see the "cool new price", they may even avoid you for gigs that they previously would have called for. In the short term, a big new shiny camera can actually make you lose business, or you find yourself giving deals to previous loyal customers that didn't really need the better camera.

Especially in LA, NY and any major city with a film/media industry. Right now in LA, if you search "C300 MkII" you get 240 results. Prices around $200 a day. The C300MK3 will be similar in a matter of weeks with Covid keeping demand low. How many times does $12,000 dived by $250?

Also, if you only rent a day a month in the beginning, then chances are that is totally offset by the camera dropping in price as time goes on, or possibly getting a used one in a few months. So, rentals at this point can be considered "free".

 

[morgan_moore]

If this is a loan from govt ,just spend it if you need to - maybe you have other loans to repay or business rent - business payments you MUST make now but dont have the cash for.

If you dont need to make payments o that nature dont spend the money.

---
Alternatively maybe you were all lined up for a loan (from your bank or camerashop) to get an xxx - if this loan is cheaper use it instead.

 

[IronFilm]

Tough choices. All I will say is that you seem to want to talk yourself into buying the expensive camera with the 'new and better client' justification. Just be careful of G.A.S. sneaking up on you. In my mind, 4k as a delivery medium is pretty far away for the OMB crowd. I mean clients asking and needing it to get the job etc... 4k as a tool to better your OMB capabilities is a big plus.

This! x100

From the tone of what the OP has said already, it does indeed very much sound like he's already made his mind up to buy the most expensive camera he possibly can and now he just need to think up a justification for "why".

That's smart. It can take months before clients start asking fo the more expensive camera. Best to just say you have it, and then 6months later buy one if it is in demand.

Of course everyone will be excited about the "cool new camera", but when they see the "cool new price", they may even avoid you for gigs that they previously would have called for. In the short term, a big new shiny camera can actually make you lose business, or you find yourself giving deals to previous loyal customers that didn't really need the better camera.

Especially in LA, NY and any major city with a film/media industry. Right now in LA, if you search "C300 MkII" you get 240 results. Prices around $200 a day. The C300MK3 will be similar in a matter of weeks with Covid keeping demand low. How many times does $12,000 dived by $250?

Also, if you only rent a day a month in the beginning, then chances are that is totally offset by the camera dropping in price as time goes on, or possibly getting a used one in a few months. So, rentals at this point can be considered "free".

Well put, not only can renting a C200 for one shot, and a C300mk3 for another, and later a C300mk2, or heck even through in a mix of FX9/FS7mk2/EVA1/VaricamLT/AMIRA rentals into there as well, you get to experience real hands on experience with what is the best camera for you.

But also (especially early on, when you only have a slow trickle of "big boy camera projects") this means you can push out further the decision of what camera to buy: this has the benefits of getting to see what firmware updates happen (for instance if the C200 gets a 10bit update you're going to regret the C300mk3 purchase!) or what new cameras get released (a C100mk3? Or a C200mk2? Perhaps a mini C50???) or just simply get to enjoy the passage of time with the depreciation that means others (not you!) experience on the secondhand market which will create bargains for you (a super cheap C300mk2 in 18 months time perhaps?).

 

[Kubicixfactor]

If I were looking at the (mainly theater) business.. could you learn abut live streaming, image transmission, some sort of images mixing/switching and webcasting, maybe a third C100, that seems an actual upgrade that might make you business more profitable.

I think this is great advice. I’d put aside enough from profits with the intention of picking up a C200 but in the current climate decided it would be better to look at live streaming instead, so picked up the equipment to do that. Already getting some work and interest. Yes I WANTED a c200 but this investment is making me some much needed income.

 

[ahalpert]

I think people make a fine point about the C200. I don't know how the AF compares to the C300iii, but if it's good enough for your needs then it could be a smart move.

You get 4K (and 60fps unlike the C300mk2). If clients were happy with the C100 codec, they'll be happy with the C200. You have RAW for when it's appropriate.

Re: 8-bit, if you shoot in Wide DR or some other non-log profile, I think you'll be totally fine.

It seems like many people are kicking ass with the C200. But clients I know who know what camera they want consider it inferior to the C300mk2.

The one thing I'd say is if you plan to shoot with the C300iii for 8 years (impossible to know for certain), its cost easily amortizes even if it doesn't end up being the biggest pay-off investment you could have made.

But it's true you can get C200 4K benefits and still rent a C300iii when needed. And also, if you're spending tons of time matching disparate cameras, then ending up with 2 C200s could be a huge timesaver.

 

[Bassman2003]

I also noticed the "loan" verbiage and second the idea that if you would not have spent the money outside of this current situation, then don't. If there is a chance of loan forgiveness, then you have to ask - what is the risk that things get bad and the excuses to not forgive start appearing?

As far as live streaming, it really depends upon what you are filming. If you are filing shows that have paid attendance, then those parties are not going to be motivated to live stream unless there is some kind of e-commerce associated with your stream and that just sounds complicated.

I agree, rent a C200 and see how much better it is over your C100. If you do not see much of a total end difference, odds are the C300 will not make that big of a difference either.

 

[ahalpert]

I agree, rent a C200 and see how much better it is over your C100. If you do not see much of a total end difference, odds are the C300 will not make that big of a difference either.

Let's not forget - the original motivation was increasing demand for 4K from current clients. Thus any 4K camera will be better!

 

[Bassman2003]

Was that increasing demand (We need 4k or we will find another vendor) or increasing perceived demand (oh, 4k, cool! Will it cost more?) I just do not see the 4k delivery thing in the near future (especially long form events) unless the clients ask and want to pay more. People in general do not seem to care that much to make $15,000 camera purchases around.

 

[Jon Roemer]

First, this is a loan from the government because of the pandemic, so there are very specific requirements for how the money can be spent. Believe me, I wish I could save it all and put it into a retirement account! I have a two-year-old kid, and planning for the future is at the very top of my list. But, alas, the $15,000 must be spent entirely on improving my business, and I can't hold on to the funds indefinitely. So here we are.

If it's a PPP loan it cannot be spent on new equipment. Part of it can be used to pay debt incurred before February 15, 2020. If you keep records and spend on approved items like payroll, rent, utilities, then it might be forgiven. If you spend on equipment you'll need to pay that portion of the loan back with interest.

If it's an EIDL loan similar restrictions apply. It is also a mortgage style loan with interest compounded from the day it gets deposited into your account. A lot of people are confused by this and think it is interest free for the first year. It is not. Payments are deferred for the first year but the loan is still generating interest. If the loan is a certain amount or higher, $25K?, then the equipment you already own is collateral and you cannot sell any of that equipment without getting approval from the SBA. The same applies to your business structure and location - you need to check in with the SBA prior to any changes.

Just sayin' and sorry to be a bummer. There are many folks online, on YT, etc, talking about these loans like they are free money. They are not. They may be a good fit for some businesses and the lifeline they need but they also may not be the best move if you are a sole proprietor/LLC and don't generate enough of the approved expenses in the normal course of your business or if carrying costs are too high.

 

[Run&Gun]

If it's a PPP loan it cannot be spent on new equipment. Part of it can be used to pay debt incurred before February 15, 2020. If you keep records and spend on approved items like payroll, rent, utilities, then it might be forgiven. If you spend on equipment you'll need to pay that portion of the loan back with interest.

If it's an EIDL loan similar restrictions apply. It is also a mortgage style loan with interest compounded from the day it gets deposited into your account. A lot of people are confused by this and think it is interest free for the first year. It is not. Payments are deferred for the first year but the loan is still generating interest. If the loan is a certain amount or higher, $25K?, then the equipment you already own is collateral and you cannot sell any of that equipment without getting approval from the SBA. The same applies to your business structure and location - you need to check in with the SBA prior to any changes.

Just sayin' and sorry to be a bummer. There are many folks online, on YT, etc, talking about these loans like they are free money. They are not. They may be a good fit for some businesses and the lifeline they need but they also may not be the best move if you are a sole proprietor/LLC and don't generate enough of the approved expenses in the normal course of your business or if carrying costs are too high.

I had applied and got approved, but the loan amount wasn’t close to what I had asked for, so I did not accept it. I didn’t want to lock myself into something “not worth it”(only amounted to a little over two days of work) that could possibly exclude me from something else down the line(if you read some of the agreement, you basically get the PPP and nothing else period). But my plan was to pay myself to meet the requirements and set the money aside, untouched until the ‘forgiveness’ was verified, approved and locked-in. If it had come back that I had to repay it, it was still sitting there ready to go back. My accountant got it and he said they just got all the terms and conditions nailed down the other week(basically everyone that took it, more or less took a “pig in a poke”). He said the final agreement/contract is like 11 pages. I was initially bummed that I didn’t get approved for what I had asked, because I had many friends getting theirs approved, no problem, for anywhere between $15K and $25K, but there’s the chance that this thing may not be the panacea that everyone thinks.

 

[puredrifting]

I had applied and got approved, but the loan amount wasn’t close to what I had asked for, so I did not accept it. I didn’t want to lock myself into something “not worth it”(only amounted to a little over two days of work) that could possibly exclude me from something else down the line(if you read some of the agreement, you basically get the PPP and nothing else period). But my plan was to pay myself to meet the requirements and set the money aside, untouched until the ‘forgiveness’ was verified, approved and locked-in. If it had come back that I had to repay it, it was still sitting there ready to go back. My accountant got it and he said they just got all the terms and conditions nailed down the other week(basically everyone that took it, more or less took a “pig in a poke”). He said the final agreement/contract is like 11 pages. I was initially bummed that I didn’t get approved for what I had asked, because I had many friends getting theirs approved, no problem, for anywhere between $15K and $25K, but there’s the chance that this thing may not be the panacea that everyone thinks.

I stopped my loan app for the same reasons. Also, none of my current clients would know the difference or care about a C300 MKIII versus our C200 and C300 MKII, so there's that. With the uptick in Corona cases in my state and the renewed calls for even more shut downs and distancing,
I think most of my business for the rest of 2020 and well into 2021 is going to be largely live streaming and will be somewhat shot with the C200/300 MKII, but mostly on the Fujifilm X-T3s, which are turning out to be great live streaming cameras.
Hollywood production that would kick start back up my EPK and BTS business is a hot mess right now, nobody knows what's going on and AB5 is continuing to decimate ICs and production companies alike. Live streaming is my future, at least for the moment. Still doing some
traditional corporate marketing production but live streaming is what we are getting the most RFPs and bids for.

For Jaime, I personally don't think the C300 MKIII is going to do much for him, I would definitely consider a pair of C200s, used or one C200A and one C200B, if anything. All of the worry about the 8-bit is moot for his clients and business IMHO, I just don't see those type clients knowing,
understanding or caring about that kind of spec. Shooting and delivering UHD, they might care about eventually or some new clients might? Jaime, for what it's worth, we were shooting all of the commercials, shows and promos for the Old Globe Theater in San Diego last year, that's what I am basing my experience off of.
Live theater, Shakespeare and they do a lot of promotion with the footage we were shooting. They specifically didn't want 4K, they archive and do some editing in house and I edited some of their promo work. They care if the shots captured what they wanted for their promos, key phrases from Shakespeare and they care if the sound and images looked good.
I don't see 4K being a factor for these types of clients but perhaps NYC is different?

We did our first 4K live stream to YouTube Live over the last weekend and that made more sense as it was a world premiere of a high end documentary shot in Cinemascope and the clients specifically wanted to live stream the film
in 4K. But funnily enough, the eight producers and the director who live streamed in from all over Europe and the U.S. were all at 720p because of the technical limitations of the bandwidth from their homes and offices. Nobody cared, the film looked great and most of the Q&A with the filmmakers, they were
shrunk down into three up and four up graphic builds, so even 720p, which is common in live streaming, looked fine to the audience. Even in 2020, 4K is not that requested overall from very many sectors of the production industry unless you are creating new, original content for streamers or theaters. But all of the tons of other work that supports all of that or has nothing to
do with the entertainment business, it's largely still a 1080 world. So not sure if spending the money to even buy used C200s will actually allow you to make more money and or grow your business?

 

[Guest]

Correct me if I am wrong, but if Jaime has higher interest loans or debts from before Feb 15, 2020, couldn't they use the newer potentially lower interest loans from the SBA to pay off those older loans, and have lower interest going forward.

Which I am assuming only the EIDL loan can be used for that, and PPP is for payroll only?

just a thought, I've not looked too much into all of this, but from conversations, that was my perception of things.

 

[Run&Gun]

Correct me if I am wrong, but if Jaime has higher interest loans or debts from before Feb 15, 2020, couldn't they use the newer potentially lower interest loans from the SBA to pay off those older loans, and have lower interest going forward.

Which I am assuming only the EIDL loan can be used for that, and PPP is for payroll only?

just a thought, I've not looked too much into all of this, but from conversations, that was my perception of things.

I believe they changed or are trying to change(expand) the categories of what the PPP loan money could be used on and the amount of time(increased) to use it. Originally it was 75% towards payroll, but they did or were talking about lowering it to only 60%.

 

[Run&Gun]

I stopped my loan app for the same reasons. Also, none of my current clients would know the difference or care about a C300 MKIII versus our C200 and C300 MKII, so there's that. With the uptick in Corona cases in my state and the renewed calls for even more shut downs and distancing,
I think most of my business for the rest of 2020 and well into 2021 is going to be largely live streaming and will be somewhat shot with the C200/300 MKII, but mostly on the Fujifilm X-T3s, which are turning out to be great live streaming cameras.
Hollywood production that would kick start back up my EPK and BTS business is a hot mess right now, nobody knows what's going on and AB5 is continuing to decimate ICs and production companies alike. Live streaming is my future, at least for the moment. Still doing some
traditional corporate marketing production but live streaming is what we are getting the most RFPs and bids for.

For Jaime, I personally don't think the C300 MKIII is going to do much for him, I would definitely consider a pair of C200s, used or one C200A and one C200B, if anything. All of the worry about the 8-bit is moot for his clients and business IMHO, I just don't see those type clients knowing,
understanding or caring about that kind of spec. Shooting and delivering UHD, they might care about eventually or some new clients might? Jaime, for what it's worth, we were shooting all of the commercials, shows and promos for the Old Globe Theater in San Diego last year, that's what I am basing my experience off of.
Live theater, Shakespeare and they do a lot of promotion with the footage we were shooting. They specifically didn't want 4K, they archive and do some editing in house and I edited some of their promo work. They care if the shots captured what they wanted for their promos, key phrases from Shakespeare and they care if the sound and images looked good.
I don't see 4K being a factor for these types of clients but perhaps NYC is different?

We did our first 4K live stream to YouTube Live over the last weekend and that made more sense as it was a world premiere of a high end documentary shot in Cinemascope and the clients specifically wanted to live stream the film
in 4K. But funnily enough, the eight producers and the director who live streamed in from all over Europe and the U.S. were all at 720p because of the technical limitations of the bandwidth from their homes and offices. Nobody cared, the film looked great and most of the Q&A with the filmmakers, they were
shrunk down into three up and four up graphic builds, so even 720p, which is common in live streaming, looked fine to the audience. Even in 2020, 4K is not that requested overall from very many sectors of the production industry unless you are creating new, original content for streamers or theaters. But all of the tons of other work that supports all of that or has nothing to
do with the entertainment business, it's largely still a 1080 world. So not sure if spending the money to even buy used C200s will actually allow you to make more money and or grow your business?

Everything is a hot mess, now. I've been lucky and have had some work lately, but as a LOT of people predicted, opening back-up too soon is coming home to roost... Our state just announced mandatory masks in public, now. And I saw NY, NJ and CT have said anyone coming into their states from states with large increases of CV transmission must quarantine for two weeks.

 

[nutmegger]

Everything is a hot mess, now. I've been lucky and have had some work lately, but as a LOT of people predicted, opening back-up too soon is coming home to roost... Our state just announced mandatory masks in public, now. And I saw NY, NJ and CT have said anyone coming into their states from states with large increases of CV transmission must quarantine for two weeks.

I live in CT. The quarantine for those out of staters mentioned is recommended but voluntary. A lot of snowbirds are returning from Florida for the summer including my neighbors across the street. His truck has been parked in the yard for a week but have not seen him or his wife.

Correction. The quarantine in CT will be required but not "enforced" according to the Governor.

 

[rob norton]

That's smart. It can take months before clients start asking fo the more expensive camera. Best to just say you have it, and then 6months later buy one if it is in demand.

Of course everyone will be excited about the "cool new camera", but when they see the "cool new price", they may even avoid you for gigs that they previously would have called for. In the short term, a big new shiny camera can actually make you lose business, or you find yourself giving deals to previous loyal customers that didn't really need the better camera.

Especially in LA, NY and any major city with a film/media industry. Right now in LA, if you search "C300 MkII" you get 240 results. Prices around $200 a day. The C300MK3 will be similar in a matter of weeks with Covid keeping demand low. How many times does $12,000 dived by $250?

Also, if you only rent a day a month in the beginning, then chances are that is totally offset by the camera dropping in price as time goes on, or possibly getting a used one in a few months. So, rentals at this point can be considered "free".

Haha cool new price is funny. Instead of pushing the gear around we could email people saying we'll be more expensive then leave it at that.

 

[Guest]

Haha cool new price is funny. Instead of pushing the gear around we could email people saying we'll be more expensive then leave it at that.

Yeah, a lot of people see the camera upgrade as a way to make more money, but in the short term, it is really just trying to get more money out of the same people that have been hiring you. And that doesn't always work out. So when "upgrading", is it to support the market you are thriving in, or to move into a new one, and if you are upgrading to move into a new market, you had got to be ready to move into a new market. Not that it has to be some well thought out plan, but it isn't entirely as simple as getting a new camera. Just like getting a college degree doesn't guarantee a high paying job, or any job.

Anyway, I feel most of the people replying on this thread have it pretty figured out.