Firmware update Comments

The FS100 sensor is the same as the 13.5 stop F3. So I guess it would not have been difficult for it to get 1 or 2 stop more DR out of it.
 
By not including Hypergammas in the firmware update Sony are missing an opportunity to take more scalps in the sub 10k market. I think there has been disappointment of the new DSLRs and maybe people are looking for "real" LSS video cameras as an alternative. I seriously doubt that providing these in the upgrade would cut into FS700 sales as the headline features of the FS700 are not just enhanced firmware and the F3 has a different market sector too.

Any FS100 owner who purchases a FS700 would want both cameras to cut together with similar identical PPs so I think Sony is being churlish by not implanting them in the firmware unless there is a technical limitation that prevents them doing so.

I would urge all FS100 owners to make their frustrations known, maybe tweet the Sony twitter accounts to at least make sure your frustrations are politely made known. If there is a big enough noise made then we might get Hypergammas down the line.
 
Nirv said:
Any FS100 owner who purchases a FS700 would want both cameras to cut together with similar identical PPs so I think Sony is being churlish by not implanting them in the firmware unless there is a technical limitation that prevents them doing so.
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I think Sony have to understand, that for many of us option to get FS-700 and to KEEP Fs-100 AS BACKUP camera will be important ... so they have to make them as close as possible in any patrs, which do NOT involve hardware difference

So, I would prefer to have all NEW focusing option and Hypergammas which FS-700 have ... and I think it is possible... that's what I was ask Sony for firmaware update in the fisrt place: "touch focus" and "touch focus transition" ... this is NOT a hardware function... all what we need to have it is Sony adapter for A-lenses:

IMG_219817.jpg


Frank Glencairn, please talk to Sony about it !!!
 
With out going through this entire post does anyone have an actual real date as to when
we will get the updates for our camera's? Thanks in advance.
 
Maybe if you buy a 700, they'll let you load pp's including hypergammas onto the sd card and transfer to the 100.
 
Kyle McConaghy said:
So lame for this update to take months to implement.
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I've complained about this point for a good amount of time now. I really want
to let it go but the FS700 added salt onto the wound for me. With that said
I'm still doing well with the FS100, finally taming the red channel for
skin tone at least.

Sony can redeem my lost faith with peaking over HDMI. Which I've asked
in multiple areas with no response...might just have to wait until
the 19th to find out. I assume the lack of response could seal my
fears however.
 
stancemedia said:
I've complained about this point for a good amount of time now. I really want
to let it go but the FS700 added salt onto the wound for me. With that said
I'm still doing well with the FS100, finally taming the red channel for
skin tone at least.

Sony can redeem my lost faith with peaking over HDMI. Which I've asked
in multiple areas with no response...might just have to wait until
the 19th to find out. I assume the lack of response could seal my
fears however.
Click to expand...

So what did you do to tame the red channel for skin tones?
 
@Gary W

I discuss it a bit here - Softness in Footage and here Leukemia Ball.

The picture profile I discuss in both is my 'crafted' PP for shoot and handover.
A lot of my footage is handed over as most of my work is freelance and as a
second shooter. Only a few projects a month are solely mine and rely on me
to finish all post work.

Here are 3 grabs from the Flowertown Festival content I shot recently and
am trying to finish an edit on. Take note of the skin tone and the highlights.
I plucked 3 shots which demonstrate both of these hang ups people normally
have with the camera.

SC1.jpg


SC2.jpg


SC3.jpg

(ALL images straight from camera no correction or grading)

I feel like the highlights are under control and the skin tones are to my high standards. Let me know if you
feel different as I'm always open to opinons and feedback. I feel I'm quite strict in what I like and having
the images pass my QA should make sure they pass most peoples QA as well.

Again the PP settings in the first link are more up to date and I generally use GLog color depth settings.
The older GLog color depth settings not the newest. Feel free to PM me or speak with me if you would like,
anyone that is always open for great conversation. Also don't ever mind feedback so be vocal.
 
Skin tones will be better on the FS700 by virtue of the fact it has built in NDs and people won't be fitting ND Faders which destroy the look of skin giving it the cgi look.

I predict when the FS700 gets into the wild we'll see plenty of side by sides showing better skin tones on the FS700, unless someone has fitted a fader to it! If anyone is vaguely interested, it's due to the sub surface scattering of light which makes skin look like skin which the faders affect being that they're just two polarisers.

As far as colour reproduction I'm not seeing anything that can't be fixed with a bit of secondary colour correction. When I were a lad Pana, Canon and Sony all had their own skin tone look which you had zero control over. Happy days...

Does anyone set their zebras to 70 and and expose for skin anymore? I ask that not to be facetious but a genuine question to see if shooting styles have changed over the years?
 
Nirv said:
Skin tones will be better on the FS700 by virtue of the fact it has built in NDs and people won't be fitting ND Faders which destroy the look of skin giving it the cgi look.

I predict when the FS700 gets into the wild we'll see plenty of side by sides showing better skin tones on the FS700, unless someone has fitted a fader to it! If anyone is vaguely interested, it's due to the sub surface scattering of light which makes skin look like skin which the faders affect being that they're just two polarisers.

As far as colour reproduction I'm not seeing anything that can't be fixed with a bit of secondary colour correction. When I were a lad Pana, Canon and Sony all had their own skin tone look which you had zero control over. Happy days...

Does anyone set their zebras to 70 and and expose for skin anymore? I ask that not to be facetious but a genuine question to see if shooting styles have changed over the years?
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You don't have to use fader NDs i'd have thought most would pop proper NDs in front. Why do we assume that the ND that sony have made are perfect, perhaps they're not (i do remember some issues with the EX1 NDs and coloration)

I expose for skin lower than 70 these days, 50 to 60 depending on the scene. With the shadow performance of the FS100 it's actually okay to shoot lower and pull them up a little. That's another reason for uncompressed recording - the detail in the shadows is a little better, you can reach a little lower.

cheers
Paul
 
paulcurtis said:
You don't have to use fader NDs i'd have thought most would pop proper NDs in front. Why do we assume that the ND that sony have made are perfect, perhaps they're not (i do remember some issues with the EX1 NDs and coloration)

I expose for skin lower than 70 these days, 50 to 60 depending on the scene. With the shadow performance of the FS100 it's actually okay to shoot lower and pull them up a little. That's another reason for uncompressed recording - the detail in the shadows is a little better, you can reach a little lower.

cheers
Paul
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That's a fair point, but it's a fair bet that NDs have a far less onerous affect on skin than 2 polarisers though. After brief experimentation with a ND Fader I'm getting some good 4x4 NDs.

I have found that I'm over exposing slightly while reading the histogram. There's much more in the blacks than I think and need to knock exposure down a tad. There's certainly much more to work with which is a pleasant surprise. The only proviso I see when exposing low is when using the Cinegamma2 if you bring skin exposure too low it will saturate badly.

I'm keeping my eye out on NAB for recording devices as I think this camera deserves it.

Cheers
 
Nirv said:
That's a fair point, but it's a fair bet that NDs have a far less onerous affect on skin than 2 polarisers though. After brief experimentation with a ND Fader I'm getting some good 4x4 NDs.

I have found that I'm over exposing slightly while reading the histogram. There's much more in the blacks than I think and need to knock exposure down a tad. There's certainly much more to work with which is a pleasant surprise. The only proviso I see when exposing low is when using the Cinegamma2 if you bring skin exposure too low it will saturate badly.

I'm keeping my eye out on NAB for recording devices as I think this camera deserves it.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Yes i do wonder about the accuracy of the histogram, i would love to get better exposure information from the camera, a full width RGB histogram would be perfect. I have a SmallHD which is lovely, and there is a false colour exposure mode on there and that can be useful but if we can't get joy out of sony with a better histogram perhaps we can petition SmallHD to add that in firmware, they seem like a good bunch.

For cheap and simple recording the blackmagic shuttle can't be beat. There are no reasonably priced portable recorders that will record the full RGB signal, the best you'll get is 4:2:2 at the moment.

Does the saturation on cinegamma change along the curve then?

cheers
Paul
 
paulcurtis said:
Yes i do wonder about the accuracy of the histogram, i would love to get better exposure information from the camera, a full width RGB histogram would be perfect. I have a SmallHD which is lovely, and there is a false colour exposure mode on there and that can be useful but if we can't get joy out of sony with a better histogram perhaps we can petition SmallHD to add that in firmware, they seem like a good bunch.

For cheap and simple recording the blackmagic shuttle can't be beat. There are no reasonably priced portable recorders that will record the full RGB signal, the best you'll get is 4:2:2 at the moment.

Does the saturation on cinegamma change along the curve then?

cheers
Paul
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Thanks for the advice on recorders. I hope there are more products catering for 1080p and it's not all 4K this year.

The shape of the gamma curve has a dramatic affect on the saturation. Fire up your NLE and bring up its vector scope and watch how the saturation increase (or decreases) when you make adjustments to the gamma in an image. This happens in camera too.

Cheers
 
Nirv said:
Thanks for the advice on recorders. I hope there are more products catering for 1080p and it's not all 4K this year.

The shape of the gamma curve has a dramatic affect on the saturation. Fire up your NLE and bring up its vector scope and watch how the saturation increase (or decreases) when you make adjustments to the gamma in an image. This happens in camera too.

Cheers
Click to expand...

I thought the 'gamma' curves were more than just straight curves. I watched some presentation by the sony guy (Juan?) explaining about how internally it was using 3D LUTs which should be able to deal with luminance as a separate issue. Could be wrong (naturally) but i took away the impression that there was more than simple math going on. I confess i've not experimented along this line at all. Perhaps i should...

cheers
Paul
 
paulcurtis said:
I thought the 'gamma' curves were more than just straight curves. I watched some presentation by the sony guy (Juan?) explaining about how internally it was using 3D LUTs which should be able to deal with luminance as a separate issue. Could be wrong (naturally) but i took away the impression that there was more than simple math going on. I confess i've not experimented along this line at all. Perhaps i should...

cheers
Paul
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I reserve the right to be wrong, of course! :)
 
The LUT being 3D means that multiple values from the channels can be used to look up a new value. So it's a curve that is dependent on more that 1 value, in this case 3 values. That way, if you are looking at the green channel, you can have red and blue values affect what happens to the green channel as well. Given that the light response of the sensor overlaps through certain frequencies, I think having a 3D LUT allows you to carefully tune the color reproduction to be MUCH MORE accurate than a 1D LUT. That said, I think Sony could really work on the upper end of the LUT.

What I would LOVE is the ability to put my own in the camera. That would solve ALL my problems.
 
Rick Burnett said:
What I would LOVE is the ability to put my own in the camera. That would solve ALL my problems.
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Just give me a proper gamma curve generator, as a PC program or even an smartphone app, that dumps the custom generated curve to the camera via USB and I´m a happy camper.
 
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