Epic and Scarlet release in 2010

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Michael Olsen said:
This is one of those interesting points - is a large sensor camera with a poor codec and poor resolution of better quality than a small sensor camera with a great codec and great resolution? Hmm... :)
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For certain applications, I would say yes, but the point I was making was that at the speed things change, we don't live in a time when price brackets can be so well defined (or meaningful for a long period of time)
 
Daniel Moore said:
These days, I don't think that one can say cameras are in different markets based on price alone, as we all know that the price of technology changes rapidly, and people are getting high quality results from cheaper and cheaper equipment. It used to be that 2/3" sensors only existed in $100,000 equipment, where now we can get better quality from $1,000 cameras.
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Nothing really changed in the high end camera market. If it's 1080p CCD with a good codec, it's still extremely expensive. Check the range of Sony and Panasonic. How much does it cost to get an intraframe format and 1080p 2/3" CCD sensors? You can get 2/3" 1080p at 20,000 euro but it will be CMOS and GOP, you can get 1080P intraframe at 10,000 euro but it will be CMOS and 1/3". You can get intraframe and CCD at 5,000 euro but it will be 1/3" 540P. You can get 1/3" 1080p for 2,000 euro but it will be CMOS, GOP and consumer quality. You can get 2/3" CCD and intraframe for 12,000+lens but it will be 540p. You want 720p instead? Double the cost. Anything that ticks all the right boxes (intraframe, CCD, 2/3", 1080p) is very expensive.

You can also get 5,000 euro solutions with a dSLR, those will be >2/3" but they will be worse than common CMOS (more rolling shutter), inferior that common GOP format (very bad implementations), inferior to any camcorder in image quality (aliasing and line skipping), and inferior in functionality (audio links, external monitoring, etc).

The AF-100 will improve on some of these things at 5,000 euro or about 9,000 euro with good lenses, but it will still be CMOS rolling shutter, and GOP.

It boils down to what one needs and what one cares to compromise. Nothing that costs $1,000 or even $20,000 can compete with the high end camcorders. If it's cheaper, it's cheaper for a reason, it can't compare in motion quality (CMOS, GOP), format precision (8bit consumer vs 10bit professional or 12bit raw compressed or 12bit raw uncompressed), image control, post flexibility, etc. $1,000 might compete on a resolution test chart with no motion, low contrast range, and no skin tones around, it might even look better. Consumers do that a lot but professionals want to shoot faces, move the camera, shoot subjects with motion. They value intraframe formats and they also value CCD. If they can't afford 1080p, they will certainly take a $20,000 HPX500 setup over any $1000 toy.
 
Daniel Moore said:
For certain applications, I would say yes, but the point I was making was that at the speed things change, we don't live in a time when price brackets can be so well defined (or meaningful for a long period of time)
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I wrote two articles on my blog, and got flak like never before.

O.K. I did not expect Philip Bloom or Shane Hurlbut agree with me, since both are making good money from VDSLR workshops all over the world now.
Nevertheless I think VDSLR is about to extinct (not for the hobby market) but for filmmakers, as "real" camcorders come to the market with the same imagers but without the problems and workarounds.

http://frankglencairn.wordpress.com/2010/09/16/vdslr-r-i-p/

and the follow up: http://frankglencairn.wordpress.com/2010/09/21/is-vdslr-really-about-to-extinct-i-think-so/

Some clients want me to shoot with a 5D, but I really hate it. Especially for run and gun jobs it´s a nightmare.
I was watching the Epic and Scarlet from day one and still think they are interesting, but for my next feature I would like to give the Drama a try. I think, in the end it´s the better concept. Otis is much more into things like aesthetics and curves than anyone else I know and I bet my money, I can pull much better pictures from a Drama out of the box than from a Epic after CC.

Frank
 
The whole Scarlet/Epic range was scrapped and DMSC concept born after the Canon 5DII was announced. You could say coincidence, but I think they were directly linked.... and of course Scarlet (2/3") is in competition with DSLRs.... they are tools that we can use to make films and are in the sub $10k market.
Both have compromises ... scarlet is light years ahead in image quality... but has a smaller sensor and doesn't actually exist,
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First things first, nothing personal meant by any of this even though I am using a specific quote. It is to illustrate a point.


WOW! that is a HELL of a statement, and part of the problem with the Scarlet hype machine. This would be journalistic malpractice of the highest order if this kind of gobbledygook were officially published (and yes I have been many times so I take this concept seriously).

"Oh, well EVERYBODY knows that the scarlet is light years ahead in image quality"

Really? I don't know that. Could you please provide links to posted footage of an actual Scarlet. Not from the Red One, not from a prototype that looks like a 1950's toaster, from a real working "street version" camera.

No that is an unfair request, because like you said. IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY EXIST!

Again for the record, I am very much willing to buy a Scarlet if it actually hits the streets before the end of the world, in fact Jim could make this the release date 12/21/2012. Therefore if they miss that date, they might be off the hook finally. However if the Mayans did simply run out of writing material or the calendar guy croaked, and 12/22/2012 is just another day, well.........

However, Jim (unknowingly and unintentionally) has done something worthy of a psychological study, and that is get a whole bunch of people to talk about how wonderful a product (and very factually, like they rented one last week for an indie prodution) that they have never used, seen, or actually evaluated the footage. Because they can't.

Just like you can't test drive a 2014 Corvette. But you know the seats are fabulous.

And since the internet is full of camera wizards that haven't used most of what they talk about , stupid rhetoric like "oh man this thing is gonna hang with a F35 / 4:4:4 HDCAM SR deck, and for $6 grand! Sony's gotta be crapping in their pants!", yet often in the same post is the lamenting "But alas I'm still in college so why can't RED sell that Scarlet for $3 grand?"

To all these net wizards who are knowledgeable about the Scarlet, I have some very bad news.

When you were 7 and your tooth fell out, remember?
and you tucked it under your pillow waiting for the tooth fairy to leave you some good 'ol cash?

It was your parents.


Now that you have been sufficiently devastated into the real world, where we work with tools that we can actually get, please stop telling me and others how great the Scarlet performs. Hopefully it will be great, and if it is the product won't need a propaganda machine. Let me be clear that RED is not the one responsible for this weirdness, it is the internet "speculators" who have done this. It is weird and absurd, and if you are the least bit serious about your craft, you will not be one of those people that says "I have a feature to shoot, and I am waiting for the Scarlet". Plenty of garbage has been shot on great cameras, so if your story is good, please do yourself a huge favor and shoot it, sans Scarlet.

Just a thought
 
Cris Daniels said:
not from a prototype that looks like a 1950's toaster
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toast.png




I'd actually pay extra for that design...

5K REDRAW
18 Stops of DR @ 60fps
Toasted Bagels and Shmear
Built in A/C Power Cord

...maybe there will be a module! :beer:
 
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Cris Daniels said:
To all these net wizards who are knowledgeable about the Scarlet, I have some very bad news.

When you were 7 and your tooth fell out, remember?
and you tucked it under your pillow waiting for the tooth fairy to leave you some good 'ol cash?

It was your parents.


Now that you have been sufficiently devastated into the real world, where we work with tools that we can actually get, please stop telling me and others how great the Scarlet performs. Hopefully it will be great, and if it is the product won't need a propaganda machine. Let me be clear that RED is not the one responsible for this weirdness, it is the internet "speculators" who have done this. It is weird and absurd, and if you are the least bit serious about your craft, you will not be one of those people that says "I have a feature to shoot, and I am waiting for the Scarlet". Plenty of garbage has been shot on great cameras, so if your story is good, please do yourself a huge favor and shoot it, sans Scarlet.

Just a thought
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excellent post!

and very nice toaster :-)
 
Cris Daniels said:
First things first, nothing personal meant by any of this even though I am using a specific quote. It is to illustrate a point.


WOW! that is a HELL of a statement, and part of the problem with the Scarlet hype machine. This would be journalistic malpractice of the highest order if this kind of gobbledygook were officially published (and yes I have been many times so I take this concept seriously).

"Oh, well EVERYBODY knows that the scarlet is light years ahead in image quality"

Really? I don't know that. Could you please provide links to posted footage of an actual Scarlet. Not from the Red One, not from a prototype that looks like a 1950's toaster, from a real working "street version" camera.

No that is an unfair request, because like you said. IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY EXIST!

Again for the record, I am very much willing to buy a Scarlet if it actually hits the streets before the end of the world, in fact Jim could make this the release date 12/21/2012. Therefore if they miss that date, they might be off the hook finally. However if the Mayans did simply run out of writing material or the calendar guy croaked, and 12/22/2012 is just another day, well.........

However, Jim (unknowingly and unintentionally) has done something worthy of a psychological study, and that is get a whole bunch of people to talk about how wonderful a product (and very factually, like they rented one last week for an indie prodution) that they have never used, seen, or actually evaluated the footage. Because they can't.

Just like you can't test drive a 2014 Corvette. But you know the seats are fabulous.

And since the internet is full of camera wizards that haven't used most of what they talk about , stupid rhetoric like "oh man this thing is gonna hang with a F35 / 4:4:4 HDCAM SR deck, and for $6 grand! Sony's gotta be crapping in their pants!", yet often in the same post is the lamenting "But alas I'm still in college so why can't RED sell that Scarlet for $3 grand?"

To all these net wizards who are knowledgeable about the Scarlet, I have some very bad news.

When you were 7 and your tooth fell out, remember?
and you tucked it under your pillow waiting for the tooth fairy to leave you some good 'ol cash?

It was your parents.


Now that you have been sufficiently devastated into the real world, where we work with tools that we can actually get, please stop telling me and others how great the Scarlet performs. Hopefully it will be great, and if it is the product won't need a propaganda machine. Let me be clear that RED is not the one responsible for this weirdness, it is the internet "speculators" who have done this. It is weird and absurd, and if you are the least bit serious about your craft, you will not be one of those people that says "I have a feature to shoot, and I am waiting for the Scarlet". Plenty of garbage has been shot on great cameras, so if your story is good, please do yourself a huge favor and shoot it, sans Scarlet.

Just a thought
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Doesn't get much clearer (or funnier) than your post Cris. Couldn't agree with you more. You made my day.
 
Cris Daniels said:
Just like you can't test drive a 2014 Corvette. But you know the seats are fabulous.
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Actually they'll probably suck, just like all other corvette seats have. I remember seeing some scarlet footage of a canon EF lens auto-focusing on another RED camera. Of course, I couldn't tell anything from it at all, quality-wise. That's one of the best posts I've seen in a while.

I remember making a youtube video right after they announced the new RED cameras. That was almost two years ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NztkE48K2r4
 
Thank you Chris Daniels for making me laugh -it's been a REAL rough week. One more thing - the DSLR revolution has absolutely affected RED. Jim and the lads might miss dates, but they're not stupid - every camera company on earth had better aware of them. Certainly the big 3 are - they all make them after all.
 
I don't understand why they want a $40K camera to look like a dSLR. The form factor is only appropriate for still cameras with very light lenses or very light camcorders with stabilised lenses and lightweight batteries. This must have a 30 minute battery inside the handle and tiny media capacity. How am I going to operate a manual lens or a follow focus handheld? Even the monitors are getting smaller, approaching the size of dSLR monitors. How heavy and front heavy will it be in a real setup? Only a shoulder mount setup makes sense for such a camera. Why copy dSLRs in something they don't do well?
 
I believe that it is quite modular Otis.The DSLR style is only one of many ways to make it work. You can rig the REDs to be like an Alexa by adding modules on the back of the main Cam, shoulder mounted, as a DSLR for handheld and Stills, you can mount it on a steadycam with limited bits, I 'think' you can even mount it with just the head and lens - with cables going off, and in fact if you trawl through the RED site you can find the different configurations. It is very, very flexible and can be made into whatever configuration you desire. The DSLR grip is not the only configuration and in fact is of course removable. This is a very modular system meaning - you can make it work how you want it to.
 
I think there are two things at play here. First, this isn't at a proper RED booth at Cinec. They haven't had display booths in quite a while where they lay out all the RPPs, their Mattebox, their rails system, the different brains, etc. etc. This is just Ted with a camera and a table. And Ted apparently likes to travel light.

Also, the modularity. RED doesn't care how you build the camera, they just put up the options. And lots of options.


Otis Grapsas said:
I don't understand why they want a $40K camera to look like a dSLR. The form factor is only appropriate for still cameras with very light lenses or very light camcorders with stabilised lenses and lightweight batteries.
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I think they have it in that configuration for three reasons. 1) It's different, and it draws attention. It looks kind of like a DSLR, but clearly isn't...what is it? Let's go find out... 2) It physically illustrates the point that one can use it as a serious photography camera. 3) It makes it easy to share. Ted can just hand it to someone, rather than having to unfit and adjust a shoulder mount, etc.

And they have evidently had some noted studio and landscape photographers use the camera who found it an enjoyable experience. And I believe a rather large spread in a recent issue of French Vogue was shot with it...

Otis Grapsas said:
This must have a 30 minute battery inside the handle and tiny media capacity.
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I think that's about right in terms of battery life. But I mean, what can you expect? It's shooting a 5K image at up to 120 frames per second, them compressing it to REDCODE, potentially mathematically losslessly. Somethings gotta give if you want an ultralight setup. And, I suppose you could always just forget about battery and clip an AB to your belt and run it off that, straight to the brain.

A SSD side module will be available, taking the place of the CF module on that camera. With currently announced sizes, it would allow up to 2.5+ hours of footage at REDCODE 42 (the top end of M-X RED ONEs) onto one drive.


Otis Grapsas said:
How am I going to operate a manual lens or a follow focus handheld?
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Well, you could do it just like everyone with DSLRS has been getting on with it - manually, on a rig with a FF.

Or, if you don't want to go the rig route, you can use Canon or Nikon primes, which can be electronically controlled via the touchscreen. I believe they are developing a variety of algorithms to allow for a variety of different focus speeds between focus points, allowing one to emulate a natural focus pull.

Or, as Ted mentioned in the video, you will be able to "lock focus" and the lens will pull focus automatically to keep the object in focus. I can't wait to see that in person...

Or, just, you know, stick it on a tripod with a battery module, SSD module, pro I/O module, an EVF, a 9" touchscreen LCD, a Zeiss MP, and Arri MB and FF. That should certainly cover most cinema-style production needs.


Otis Grapsas said:
Even the monitors are getting smaller, approaching the size of dSLR monitors.
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This is all about options. They plan on having 2.8 inch, 5 inch, 7 inch, and 9 inch touchscreen LCDs. After that, it's time for an HD-SDI monitor from another company. Use whatever size you want.


Otis Grapsas said:
How heavy and front heavy will it be in a real setup? Only a shoulder mount setup makes sense for such a camera. Why copy dSLRs in something they don't do well?
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Well, they aren't forcing you to stick a 10lb zoom lens on there. Brain is supposed to weigh about 5lbs. A decent prime will add another or two. So it's not a lightweight handheld camera. But it's not locked to this form factor.

If you want to use it handheld (again: a number of photographers have been in the studio to try it out) you can.

If you want to try to stick some small handles to it and make it work like a DSLR rig, you can.

If you want to put it on a shoulder mount, you can.

If you want to put it on a steadicam, you can.

If you want to put it in an underwater mount, you can.

If you want to put just the brain and lens on the end of a crane and then run a cable back to the rest of the modules, you can.

If you want to take just the brain and lens and strap it to your shoulder, put the modules in a backpack, and go skiing, running around a warzone, or jump out of a plane with it, you can.

RED_Epic_04.jpg


--

All of that being said, I'm not a huge fan of that format. I don't think I'll be buying the side or bottom handles for this camera initially. It'll come later as something else I can use, if I want to.

Also, I believe Mr. Sodebergh is due to roll on Epic cameras for "Contagion" when the production returns to the States. Great way to beta-test :beer:
 
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Otis Grapsas said:
I don't understand why they want a $40K camera to look like a dSLR. The form factor is only appropriate for still cameras with very light lenses or very light camcorders with stabilised lenses and lightweight batteries. This must have a 30 minute battery inside the handle and tiny media capacity. How am I going to operate a manual lens or a follow focus handheld? Even the monitors are getting smaller, approaching the size of dSLR monitors. How heavy and front heavy will it be in a real setup? Only a shoulder mount setup makes sense for such a camera. Why copy dSLRs in something they don't do well?
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It is the dream cinema-verite camera for me. I can see how it may not be appealing to everyone, but it is pretty incredible for some of us. While for most situations we would like narrative cinema to be controlled, there are situations where the option of "letting loose" can be immensely refreshing. Just pick up a camera, go out and shoot (handheld). Partly why some of the mid-90s work of Chris Doyle is so breathtaking. Also, still photographers are taking notice. Nikon D3s' 9 fps full resolution burst had many fans. The ability to tag stills from a 100 fps 5K stream, however, is unprecedented, and could be a life saver for those fleeting moments (wildlife, horses and motorsports comes to mind - or just about any event you cannot anticipate. How many times have I missed an moment?!).

Also, I must add, the beauty is in the modularity. In a typical studio configuration, with hours of power and media, pro IO and a myriad of feature modules it will be as big and bulky as your regular cinema cameras. That's the beauty of choice.
 
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And since the internet is full of camera wizards that haven't used most of what they talk about , stupid rhetoric like "oh man this thing is gonna hang with a F35 / 4:4:4 HDCAM SR deck, and for $6 grand! Sony's gotta be crapping in their pants!", yet often in the same post is the lamenting "But alas I'm still in college so why can't RED sell that Scarlet for $3 grand?"

To all these net wizards who are knowledgeable about the Scarlet, I have some very bad news.

When you were 7 and your tooth fell out, remember?
and you tucked it under your pillow waiting for the tooth fairy to leave you some good 'ol cash?
Click to expand...

Well said , some of us are working professional in this craft and some of us are just weekend warriors... I've seen many so call "professional" hitting the market with a DSLR calling themselves Cinematographer or Director of Photographer. I feel so small around them as I still call myself a videographer after 9 years in the industry with a full time pay as one. I need a bath :bath: to wake myself up.
 
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