Epic and Scarlet release in 2010

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I love this line "Scarlet will be targeted to the professional; make no mistake, this is a system designed for professional use, but at a price point that will further RED's quest to democratize the process of film making."

If you ask me... and no one did... I'd guess that they spent more than they imagined on their development of the Epic and upkeep of Red, and would rather not cut into it's profits with the Scarlet... But that's my own theory. While some might be quick to point out that the Red and Epic systems exist (or are theorized) at a different price point than the Scarlet, take into account the amount of high profile work shot on shabby DSLRs, especially in the rental market, and it seems like the lines between strata of camera may be blurrier than most would like to admit.

If you could have the same workflow for a 2 day commercial, why rent an epic when you could use a ff35 scarlet?... especially when you have to justify every line on your budget... Frankly, it makes a lot of sense to keep that raw workflow out of the hands of guys like me because they owe it to the ones who have invested in their system to keep that investment a bit longer, especially in this market. Panasonic of all the players in this game has demonstrated a commitment to those that invest in their gear, and I think Red is learning that as well. Soderberg may have used their cameras to shoot Che, but they weren't part of the rebellion... With their merits, achievements and accomplishments in mind, I'll say they are a business first and revolutionaries second.
 
yeah well I tend not to read into things and I'm going to stick with my hacked Gh-1 t2i, and hd100u(rarely used anymore) and continue to do the jobs I have, as I have done, and not buy the af100. I will rent when I need it as the job requires it. Then I will make an informed decision about my next purchase when all camera's are on market, and I'm not going to let some personal bias sway me away from what could potentially be wonderful cameras.

to a future filled with more respect and understanding, and a vast array of camera choices for all types of production.

have a good one and happy filming.
 
I actually got a decent quote for a lease/buyout of the the Alexa from Abel Cine. It was doable and I'm tempted to do it for the larger projects.

The look is just amazing:

 
your right man, those images are beautiful. Do you know of any features being shot on it, or that have been shot on it. I would like to see some if you know of any.
 
grimrebes said:
I love this line "Scarlet will be targeted to the professional; make no mistake, this is a system designed for professional use, but at a price point that will further RED's quest to democratize the process of film making."

If you ask me... and no one did... I'd guess that they spent more than they imagined on their development of the Epic and upkeep of Red, and would rather not cut into it's profits with the Scarlet... But that's my own theory. While some might be quick to point out that the Red and Epic systems exist (or are theorized) at a different price point than the Scarlet, take into account the amount of high profile work shot on shabby DSLRs, especially in the rental market, and it seems like the lines between strata of camera may be blurrier than most would like to admit.

If you could have the same workflow for a 2 day commercial, why rent an epic when you could use a ff35 scarlet?... especially when you have to justify every line on your budget... Frankly, it makes a lot of sense to keep that raw workflow out of the hands of guys like me because they owe it to the ones who have invested in their system to keep that investment a bit longer, especially in this market. Panasonic of all the players in this game has demonstrated a commitment to those that invest in their gear, and I think Red is learning that as well. Soderberg may have used their cameras to shoot Che, but they weren't part of the rebellion... With their merits, achievements and accomplishments in mind, I'll say they are a business first and revolutionaries second.
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I don't agree with this at all. The technology is being developed first in Epic, but the intent of the Scarlet line is to be the "90%" cameras. They will work just fine for most production applications except for those needing higher frame rates or very low mathematically lossless compression rates for high end special FX work. If you don't need more than 60fps, Scarlet will be the obvious choice and an S35 package should price out loaded with modules to match the RED 1 functions at about the same price as the original R1 body before the M-X upgrade while offering superior performance in most respects, including HDRx. I don't see any other companies stepping up to the plate with this level of tech at any price. This is the only real revolution as far as equal or superior to film digital acquisition at reasonably affordable to own prices for working pros.
 
Razz16mm said:
I don't see any other companies stepping up to the plate with this level of tech at any price. This is the only real revolution as far as equal or superior to film digital acquisition at reasonably affordable to own prices for working pros.
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What price? Nothing is set in stone. Though we do know whatever price they choose will be higher because of added features like HDRx. The revolution is greatly exaggerated. There is still no solution or revolution in distribution, camera is least of our worries.
 
In history "rebels" are either manipulated fools or powerful entities that want to overthrow = change the goverment to serve their interests. The actual rebels are very rare and they never get through, they are not powerful enough to manipulate the masses, they lack (or despise) what we now call marketing and they only influence a selected few.

What would the rebellion be about? In the video industry I find no reason to overthrow anyone. The big manufacturers are decent companies operating on very low margins. Most of them are partly owned by people like you and me, they are creating jobs for hundreds of thousands of people in massive manufacturing and sales networks and producing useful products that cover almost every need. They treat all customers with respect even when it's about a $100 product because they respect the $5 they make when selling one of those. The never manipulate you or lie to you or promise impossible things to get your interest. When they have a product they let you know and it usually is good value for money.

In political terms, I wouldn't change that for a system with a dictator that believes my respectability has something to do with my budget and buying power. Pretty soon we would have a class built around the persona, they will all look down on us and one day the dictator will be worshipped as a divine entity or at least a prophet:)
 
Isaac_Brody said:
What price? Nothing is set in stone. Though we do know whatever price they choose will be higher because of added features like HDRx. The revolution is greatly exaggerated. There is still no solution or revolution in distribution, camera is least of our worries.
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It's interesting you bring up distribution. I know RED has RED RAY PRO which seems to be target both at production and distribution. RED RAY (non-pro) seems to still be on the drawing board for home cinema use of 4K without all the I/O of the pro version. Of course, will major theatre companies buy in? Who knows...I know many are investing a lot right now upgrading, utilizing, and maintaining 2K digital, 3D, and 4K.

I recently did find out there is a theatre with Sony 4K projection not far from where I live. Which makes me ask - when I go see something projected there, what are they doing? Is there a 4K DCI standard? Is it just an uprezzed 2K DCI file? And if there is already a standard for DCI distribution to theatres and film prints are the same as they've ever been...what else is left to sort through for distribution (i.e., what other "solutions or revolutions" would be required)?
 
maranfilms said:
your right man, those images are beautiful. Do you know of any features being shot on it, or that have been shot on it. I would like to see some if you know of any.
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The first major 3D Hollywood feature shot with Alexa has wrapped.

Martin Scorsese's 'Hugo Cabret' shot by the AMAZING Robert Richardson, ASC was shot in 3D using two Arri Alexa's and Cooke Prime lenses, mainly the new Cooke 5/i's, another first on a hollywood feature.

Hot damn I'd kill for a 3D Alexa rig and some Cooke 5/i's!!!


EDIT: To be honest this film is going to show everyone the promise of real 3D filmmaking. Avatar did so, but was still a 'video game' of 3d none-sense, at times cool. This will show how subtle and sometimes less subtle 3D in a less CG oriented film can be used to help tell a story. Bob Richardson can't f$#k anything up, he's simply the most talented AMERICAN cinematographer out there to date. I've not looked forward to a film for quite some time.
 
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Razz16mm said:
I don't see any other companies stepping up to the plate with this level of tech at any price. This is the only real revolution as far as equal or superior to film digital acquisition at reasonably affordable to own prices for working pros.
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Assuming that RED manages to hit their latest price points (which are almost 1 year old today...), I agree with you. If they can deliver a 5K S35 sensor that will do 60fps with up to 18stops of DR, record for hours at a time to reliable SSD media, have functional and reliable third party electronic mounting options, and have good post integration, all for less than $20,000 they will have a mighty fine product on the market. They are set out on a path to achieve that - resolution, I think is a no brainer. Framerates, likewise. HDRx, I think, remains to be publicly proven - there are still a lot of questions about that. SSD media is also still open to skepticism, especially regarding pricing. And the rest just comes down to actually releasing the camera. Which could be Jan 1, March 30, or Setpember of 2013.

Personally, I am excited to see Epic in its beta testing phase. When those cameras start shipping, I will start feeling a lot better about the possibility of Scarlet shipping.

Honestly, at this point, I'm ready to just see a page on the RED Store with specs, a price, and an "Add to Cart" button....
I'm sure RED is ready for the same thing.
 
I actually find it interesting that some people think the product will just simply never make it to the market. Ever. At all. Which confuses me greatly...why wouldn't it?
 
And for the record, I definitely think the "Hold everything, Scarlet might be coming soon!" line of thought is ridiculous. If something is ready to be shot, shoot it. And shoot it with whatever makes most sense - 8mm, 65mm, ALEXA, M-X, F35, AF-100, T2i, D90. Just shoot it and make it look good.
 
John Caballero said:
Yeah, keep waiting for the Scarlet, and waiting and waiting. Its amazing how so many people are still believing. Yeah, keep believing.
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Not a matter of belief. Red has an established track record now with Red 1 and there is no doubt they will eventually deliver the new cameras too, Epic and Scarlet. They have made the commitment to do so and they will live up to it. That the development cycle is taking longer than Red or we anticipated is not really that surprising given what they are attempting to do.
 
Razz16mm said:
To Jim's deep pockets you can add $160 million plus in Red 1 sales to date, 8000+ cameras and counting.
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I've seen a few people throwing that number around lately.... you do realise that huge amounts of money were required to get R1 off the ground? I would be amazed if RED currently run a profit.
 
Michael Olsen said:
And for the record, I definitely think the "Hold everything, Scarlet might be coming soon!" line of thought is ridiculous. If something is ready to be shot, shoot it. And shoot it with whatever makes most sense - 8mm, 65mm, ALEXA, M-X, F35, AF-100, T2i, D90. Just shoot it and make it look good.
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Not always. I have a short film I wrote a year ago and have been waiting on the next gen camera to shoot it. Granted, that was supposed to be the S35, but now that I have pre-ordered the AF100, in the beginning of next year I will begin shooting it. Granted, this is a personal project with a very small budget, it has a HUGE amount of VFX and I've had a lot of other projects to fill the time that aren't as important to me visually. Sometimes it is worth waiting for something better when the gains in quality are enough to warrant the wait, and the financial situation is part of the equation. I have NO regrets for waiting.
 
stockfuel said:
I've seen a few people throwing that number around lately.... you do realise that huge amounts of money were required to get R1 off the ground? I would be amazed if RED currently run a profit.
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Yes, why do we ignore the development costs, the unit manufacturing cost, the administration costs, the running costs and salaries for development and support, the licensing costs, the capital cost and even income taxes? :)
 
^^Those things probably get ignored because RED is not a public company, which means profit seeking is not its only point of existence. Jannard has pretty clearly laid out that there are two reasons he started RED, first is that he is a camera freak and he wanted to build the ultimate camera. Second, he wanted to impress his girlfriend (now his wife). RED is not a total money pit even if it runs at some loss, and with Jim being one of the few hundred wealthiest people in the world, he can sustain some level of financial loss for an extended period of time.
 
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