C100: decent slider for C100?

Hi Eric, I never used an expensive fluid head. My regular tripod is a Davis & Sanford fluid head, it was under $200. I got the Velbon because of the price, I think around $50.00 and because it was light weight plastic. Again, I've never used a state of the art fluid head so your talking to someone who has lived on a steady diet of potatoes. However, if I were to make a judgement I would say no the Velbon is not really great for pan and tilts....... I think it can be done but it takes a lot of practice and luck to get a smooth pan and tilt. That's why Jbeager has spurred my interest in a 3 axis system, it would be perfect for what I do.

The Shark can support 7kg or 15.5 pounds. I'm too lazy to look up how much a C300 weighs, but I'm sure it falls within the range.

Hey is that second picture the Shark 3 axis system? If so, looks pretty heavy duty. I can see why it costs so much.

The Rhino is just too short for my needs. I remember researching sliders a couple of years ago when I bought the Shark and don't remember if I saw the Kessler or not, or for what reason I didn't get it if I did see it. They both look like a draw, except for the fact the Kessler 3 axis is much cheaper than the Sharks. The one huge advantage the Shark has over the Kessler is expandability which was one of the main reasons I bought it.

Anyway, I sure would be interested to know if a 3 axis system can be adopted for the Shark other than Sharks.
 
If you're not thrilled with the Velbon (I wasn't sure if it was a cheap and light hidden gem, hence why I asked) perhaps the Manfrotto 701 (not a 500) would be an improvement for not too much money. I'm pretty satisfied with it as a slider head, though as mentioned the FH-350 would be nicer though a lot more expensive.

For $225 (stainless steel) or $275 (carbon fiber) you can buy 42" rails for the Rhino which can be easily switched out with the 24" rails without having to buy a new dolly piece (whatever the portion the camera is mounted to is called), end pieces, etc. The 42" stainless steel rails have a weight capacity of 50 lbs, so though it's pretty long it probably won't flex with just two mounting points, whereas the Shark is more likely to flex on longer runs since it's carbon fiber. The 42" carbon fiber on the Rhino has a weight capacity of 10 lbs. Both the Shark and Rhino have a flywheel; on the Shark the flywheel is heavier (not sure if that's good or bad), I think it's also a required piece on the Shark (perhaps you can clarify), whereas on the Rhino it's an option.

The big selling point to me is the simplicity of the Rhino motion control setup. It's compact, light, a small controller, small batteries, simple interface, etc. Just looking at the photo of the second shooter I posted and you see a bunch of cables, it's really high, seems like it'd take longer to setup, etc. The Rhino really needs a parallax option to be useful, which they had a prototype for, but then apparently Kessler thought it infringed on their parallax setup, threatened Rhino, etc., and that put Rhino back to the drawing board for a different parallax setup they're now working on which they've said they're hoping to release in a couple or few months. Here's the video on that. He doesn't say "Kessler," but that seems to be obvious.

Yeah, that's the Shark 3 axis system in that photo. This video is over a year old and shows the 3-axis setup in use with a DSLR. Seems odd how they had an apparently working prototype over a year ago at NAB 2014, said it would be out within three months, and now 17 months later it's still not shipping.

Again, I don't doubt the Shark slider can support the capacity of the cameras I mentioned which are all around 7-10 lbs; I'm talking specifically about their three-axis motion control system. In the the video I just linked to the Shark representative says, "What we're gonna do, uh when we go back, probably, we're gonna upgrade the motor to a higher payload, so, uh, people like with, uh maybe C100, uhm, can still support it." Doesn't, uhm, sound very promising, uh, for supporting a C300 Mark II at, like, two pounds more, probably.
 
Michael Thames said:
Why couldn't you simply buy the "Kessler" second shooter package, and use it on the Shark for those who already have one...... it might be doable with a little engineering creativity? Yes, I agree the price to equip the Shark to 3 Axis is outrageous!
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You could theoretically hack the Second Shooter head and slider motor onto the Shark. I mean, with the right mounts, some kind of gear to replace the Shark's flywheel, and a gear belt of the correct pitch and length you could probably put something together.

The better question is why bother? With the Second Shooter on a Stealth (or pretty much any other mock-ready Kessler slider), I get something that was made to work together and is fully supported by Kessler. It was also made in the USA and is supported (very well I might add) by the manufacturer directly... also in the USA.

I think the Shark is very stable in it's shorter form, as stable as anything else, when you put on the extensions I believe it comes to 40 inches, and you have the option to extend it even further, but just about any slider at that length is gonna have a few stability issues.
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Yeah, the shark is great in the shorter configuration... but it's also REALLY short for a lot of slider moves. In my experience, the 30-35" range is about PERFECT. With the Shark, your choices are 19" (way too short IMO) and 40" with the extension rails. The offset mount when you add the extension rails also makes the Shark nearly impossible to use with the Konova support arms, meaning I have to drag another full tripod or lightstands or something else with me. With the Kessler, I can run it like this and it's fully supported with one tripod:

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Not saying the Shark isn't great... it totally is. But there are some design compromises that make it sub-optimal for my use.


But, I must say you have tweaked my interest in a 3 axis set up...... could in fact be my next fantasy/ purchase. At any rate I'm going to start to look into this.
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You totally should. Three-axis MoCo is AWESOME. I use my Second Shooter in pretty much every interview to give a nice parallax'd slide move for the cutaway camera.

I really like Bloom, very charismatic and entertaining, not to mention he does outstanding reviews. I've read a lot of Bloom bashing here, I guess when that happens my natural instinct is to side with the underdog, I'm the same with everyone in life, perhaps it's a fault, I don't know.
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I really lost a lot of respect for the guy when he started appearing on everyone's marketing videos giving testimonials. But hey, I don't have anything specifically against him... that said, I totally don't blame Kessler for isolating themselves and their brand from him when he becomes controversial. It's a distraction and it hurts your brand.
 

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Jbregar and Eric, OK you have me thinking now. I haven't really looked at sliders for years..... looks like time to reconsider the options. I didn't know the Rhino was expandable.

Jbregar, if the Kessler Stealth is $800 and the second shooter bundle is $800 why is the cost higher than $1600? You said, you paid $1800with a 20% discount.... is there something else to buy?
 
The Second Shooter "starter bundle" that's $799 on Kessler.com is just the controller and motor/mounting for the slider. It doesn't include the pan/tilt head... so the $800 kit is only a single axis.

I essentially have the Second Shooter Complete Bundle ($1839) w/o the hard case + the Stealth Standard (39.5"). At the time, Kessler offered a bundle with the Second Shooter 3-axis kit + Stealth + mounting hardware for right at $2k. Then you had to buy the batteries separately (two MagPaks at $100 each). Less the 20% NAB discount and the out the door was right around $1800.

Then I added a MyCaseBuilder.com hard case for $180 and a few other things... I have about $2200 in the whole kit but it's damn near perfect for what I use it for. I need to have MCB make me a new foam insert that has space for the Konova Slider Support Arms though so I can keep it all together again.
 
If looking at Kessler, I would also suggest looking at the Parallax. It's basically a mechanical version of 2 axis second shooter without motor. This might seem less functional, but it can be really useful for quick hand controlled tracking shots for b-roll. I also use it with their analog Oracle system and it is also great for slow products shots. I haven't "upgraded" to the digital system so I'm not sure how much better it is. My main problem with the Oracle system is the fact that it won't cycle the slider movement automatically like the second shooter and the motors also make noise. I've heard that the second shooter also makes noise, though.
 
You can run the Second Shooter in real-time if you want, but it's strength is really pre-programmed keyframe motion control.

Kessler's parallax bar is insanely overpriced.

The Second Shooter motors do indeed make noise... but I haven't really had much trouble keeping it out of the recorded sound. In operation on a slow move, the noise isn't terrible.
 
jbregar said:
Kessler's parallax bar is insanely overpriced.
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I don't think it is overpriced. For the amount that I use it and the much better quality of shots that I am able to get, it was well worth the investment. It's certainly not overpriced relative to the craftsmanship and design requirements.

The second shooter has similar capabilities so they somewhat overlap in usefulness.
 
jbregar said:
The Second Shooter "starter bundle" that's $799 on Kessler.com is just the controller and motor/mounting for the slider. It doesn't include the pan/tilt head... so the $800 kit is only a single axis.

I essentially have the Second Shooter Complete Bundle ($1839) w/o the hard case + the Stealth Standard (39.5"). At the time, Kessler offered a bundle with the Second Shooter 3-axis kit + Stealth + mounting hardware for right at $2k. Then you had to buy the batteries separately (two MagPaks at $100 each). Less the 20% NAB discount and the out the door was right around $1800.

Then I added a MyCaseBuilder.com hard case for $180 and a few other things... I have about $2200 in the whole kit but it's damn near perfect for what I use it for. I need to have MCB make me a new foam insert that has space for the Konova Slider Support Arms though so I can keep it all together again.
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Dam Jbregar, I hate when this happens! I've been researching sliders 24 hours straight. I called Kessler to talk about getting one but they were closed I guess at 4:30 Central time.... maybe that's s good thing.... ha ha!

I've been looking at just about everything out there. I like the Red Rock "one man crew" for $2450, I think the Kessler is about $2600 total, and for that you get 3 Axis instead of only two. I think a parabolic slider would work quite well for me, but then I might be kicking myself later for not holding out for the 3 axis system.

I have a guitarist flying in tomorrow from the east coast to shoot a week of videos...... sure could use the Kessler for that. I think by the time you add up everything you need the price is just about the same for all of them. It seems Rhino doesn't have their parabola unit out yet, so not too many choices.
 
cpreston said:
I don't think it is overpriced. For the amount that I use it and the much better quality of shots that I am able to get, it was well worth the investment. It's certainly not overpriced relative to the craftsmanship and design requirements.

The second shooter has similar capabilities so they somewhat overlap in usefulness.
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All this stuff is over priced!
 
Michael Thames said:
Sometimes you don't really get want you want, but ya get what you need.
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Like I said, if you can't charge extra to your client for equipment such as slider (or jib), it's because your clients don't need it or you are not targeting the right clients...or worse, you can't sell them the idea that a slider shot will be beneficial for the video.
 
Doug_EX said:
Like I said, if you can't charge extra to your client for equipment such as slider (or jib), it's because your clients don't need it or you are not targeting the right clients...or worse, you can't sell them the idea that a slider shot will be beneficial for the video.
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Doug, I'm my own client. If I didn't shoot videos to promote my stuff I'd be out of work. Buying an XH-A1 back in 2007 was the best investment I've ever made for my business. Since I primarily do music videos and how to documentary stuff I recently got a pair of Schoeps mics with one of the best pre-amps you can buy..... they have paid for themselves 10 fold in the last couple of months. So I do understand the concept of buying stuff and making money from it. That said, I'd probably buy it anyway.

When I shoot a video it's just me and maybe the guitarists wife who I tell to wild the camera back and forth on the slider, not particularly professional. The second shooter 3 Axis will really improve my videos and free me up to operate my second camera. If I sell one guitar from a video then it just paid for itself 3 fold.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZARy6E7Rxj4
 
Michael Thames said:
Doug, I'm my own client. If I didn't shoot videos to promote my stuff I'd be out of work. Buying an XH-A1 back in 2007 was the best investment I've ever made for my business. Since I primarily do music videos and how to documentary stuff I recently got a pair of Schoeps mics with one of the best pre-amps you can buy..... they have paid for themselves 10 fold in the last couple of months. So I do understand the concept of buying stuff and making money from it. That said, I'd probably buy it anyway.

When I shoot a video it's just me and maybe the guitarists wife who I tell to wild the camera back and forth on the slider, not particularly professional. The second shooter 3 Axis will really improve my videos and free me up to operate my second camera. If I sell one guitar from a video then it just paid for itself 3 fold.
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Well in that case, for sure every piece of equipment will seem overprice. I understand your situation..been there (well, sort of).
 
Doug_EX said:
Well in that case, for sure every piece of equipment will seem overprice. I understand your situation..been there (well, sort of).
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I don't think my situation is much different than most people. A lot of this gear has been priced to the hobby film maker who has money to burn. How many times have we read on this forum how overpriced this or that camera is, especially Canon right? In this very thread Jbregar said how over priced the Kessler Paralax bar is. I bought a used C100 from Jbregar in fact, I could have bought an overpriced new one if I were stupid. I'm always looking for used equipment over brand new stuff because most of it is over priced. I've bought many new cars during my life but, one day had an epiphany and realized I would never buy a new car again.

However, if you need something at the time, then you need it, and will pay the price. I don't mind spreading the love around to these creative companies to help support us all, but on the other hand I do look for deals.

I don't follow your logic. It's not expensive if you make money from it. You can also make money from used or inexpensive gear too.
 
Michael Thames said:
I don't follow your logic. It's not expensive if you make money from it. You can also make money from used or inexpensive gear too.
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I made a sunshade for my Ninja Blade with cardboard and hockey tape...so no, I don't follow this logic. I am more than happy to make diy stuff or buy cheap stuff that works (though it doesn't happen often) but video equipment is not common stuff like say tv's or cell phones. It just cost more because the companies sells less sliders (example) than LG will sell tv's. In the 1980's almost no one here could've buy a pro camcorder, and now that video equipment has become relatively affordable, people tend to compare (pricewise) general electronics with pro video equipment.
 
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