maranfilms
Veteran
Been using a shark for several months and Ilove it! Best slider I've ever used in terms of smoothness.
C100: decent slider for C100?
- Thread starter jthabel
- Start date
Michael Thames
Carbonite Member
I guess what what im talking about is you can buy a Kessler 3axis bundle for $2000 or a Shark with 3 axis for $4000. I can save myself $2000 for something that basically does the same thing. I call the Shark over priced! It matters not if I have a job that pays for it or not, that's $2000 bucks in my pocket.
I'm not sure I'd say the Second Shooter and a parallax bar/single-axis MoCo setup has "similar capabilities." Maybe if you're comparing a two-axis Second Shooter...
As for the parallax bar being overpriced, I'll stand by that when you compare it to the cost of the slider itself (Stealth is $799 for the slider, then the Parallax bar is another $599? C'mon!) and the cost of a Second Shooter setup with three axis vs. parallax and single axis.
If I did the Parallax Bar and wanted slider MoCo:
Stealth: $799
Parallax Bar: $599
Single-Axis Second Shooter Kit: $799
That's $2197 not including power (battery/etc.)
If I did a THREE axis Second Shooter Kit:
Second Shooter 3-Axis Bundle w/ Stealth Slider: $2049 (also without batteries/power)
So... for $150 more, I can get something that's LESS capable?
Both the Parallax bar and the three-axis SS setup can do a parallax move... but the SS three axis can do a lot more including up to three keyframes on a move and moves that involve tilting.
If all you're doing is manually-controlled moves, all you want is parallax, and you can't have any noise from the motors then the Parallax bar is probably a good pickup... but at $599, they're asking about double what I think is reasonable for it. 75% of the cost of the slider for a parallax add-on is silly.
Yes. That's the one. I bought the "standard" length.
To that setup, I'd add a couple of the MagPaks (what I did)...
http://store.kesslercrane.com/products/motion-control/battery-power/magpak-battery.html
Or if you're feeling flush or need to do REALLY long time-lapses or the like, get the ION...
http://store.kesslercrane.com/products/motion-control/battery-power/ion-battery-bp1001.html
Alternatively, if you're never going to be away from AC, that kit comes with a power brick that'll power the Second Shooter, so you could forgo batteries completely.
If you get it, let me know... I'll share my MyCaseBuilder pattern with you so you can get a case for it all. Kessler's case options are both too expensive and kind of crappy. I got a case that holds everything with custom-cut foam for about $200.
cpreston
Veteran
Have you used the Parallax? It's a complicated piece of equipment with a large number of design considerations. It's basically another slider. Once you've seen it, it becomes very clear why Kessler needs to charge what they do to make a profit. Arguably, the second shooter is a better design strategy for tracking shots on a slider. I personally think that the Parallax offers some benefits to a motorized system, but that's just my opinion and the way in which I use it.
You're argument for it being overpriced seems to be based on what you think it would be worth it to you to own. That's not the way pricing works.
Doug_EX
Well-known member
Michael Thames
Carbonite Member
Thanks Jbregar, I think I'm going to spring for it first thing in the morning. I'll contact you about the case. At this point I don't need the battery pack as I use it at home or indoors with access to electricity. I can't see myself doing much time lapse at this point other than just for the fun of it...... but I will definitely get the batteries in the future.
I've been shooting all day with my Shark slider..... I love it, very well built and smooth as butter, but when you mentioned 3 axis it was like a light bulb went off in my head...... that's exactly what I need. If I order it tomorrow I might get it in time for one day of shooting.
I've used both the Kessler parallax and the Konova equivalent. It's hardly another slider. It's a bar with adjustable mounts on each end and a fixed-length pan carriage that rides on the bar and pivots around the pan axis. The angle between the slider carriage and the parallax bar is how it works. It's a VERY simple piece of gear. I'll admit that the Kessler one is quite well made, but it isn't exactly as complex as you make it sound.
Many of Kesslers accessories are pretty pricey for what they are. Their quick release is another good example. If it's worth it to you, that's cool.
I'm also curious about the advantages you see in a parallax bar over a three axis moco setup other than the aforementioned noise issue. I guess I could buy weight and setup time as well, but completely automated and fully-repeatable motion on three axes is HUGE. We just did a green screen shoot that would have been impossible without the repeatability.
Yeah. Let me know on the case. I need to add a few more pieces to my foam, so I may sell you mine for a discount and order new foam.
You'll love the Second Shooter.
cpreston
Veteran
Ok, it just sounds like we have different viewpoints. Personally, I've only used a slider for interviews a couple of times, but I use the Parallax and cineslider on almost every b-roll shoot that I do. Depending on why a buyer thinks they need mutliaxis motion control, I suggest that buyers also consider that the Parallax might be a more useful choice. If you purely want continuous tracking or panning during vertical and horizontal movements, the Parallax is a solid option.
Michael Thames
Carbonite Member
Well I guess they called it "Second Shooter" for a reason.
I spent all day behind the slider with my C100, all the time wishing I could be operating the 5D3, and dreaming of the day the Kessler Second Shooter arrives to free me up for some more interesting shots.
Michael Thames
Carbonite Member
Well isn't that logic applied to anything anyone buys? If pricing doesn't work that way then no one would buy anything. There would be a lot of companies with over priced stuff that know buys.
Right, but if your choices are a single-axis motion control system with the Parallax kit or a Second Shooter with three axes of motion... and the three-axis kit is actually CHEAPER and can do everything the single-axis + Parallax kit can do (and more!)... why would the Parallax kit be the better solution?
When I do an interview, I set the second shooter with a b-cam on it and I can literally forget it's even there. It just sits and does its thing. And that thing can include doing a tilt or a three-keyframe move. Completely automated. Or I can set it up for time-lapse and it triggers the camera and does the motion control. Heck, for another $399, I can have the dang thing run focus or zoom on the lens as one of the axes (or if I buy another controller and a number of the FIZ drivers, I can run 6 axes of motion control... slide, pan, tilt, focus, iris, zoom). All completely repeatable. There are a TON of benefits to the Second Shooter three axis over a single axis + parallax... and it's cheaper!
THAT'S why I said the Parallax kit is overpriced. When you can get full three-axis motion control for cheaper than 1 axis + parallax, the parallax kit is too expensive. It's a less-flexible piece of kit for more money... that doesn't make any sense unless you fall into the market that needs parallax but can't deal with the motor noise and can run the slider manually to avoid it.
Parallax bars are awesome. They're a great way to get nice parallax effects without spending a ton on complicated MoCo... but the price on the MoCo stuff has come WAY down so the parallax bars are looking a little pricey for what they are compared to getting the same effect through motors and motion control.
Now, if you're not motorizing the slider the Parallax is a cheaper way to get the effect... but you'll need someone to push the camera back and forth (assuming it's a b-cam). I never used a slider for an interview before I got the SS either, but it now is literally my second shooter on interviews and my b-cam cut shots look better for it.
Michael Thames
Carbonite Member
My Kessler 3 Axis slider is arriving on Thursday. Anyone want to buy a Shark slider with the extensions?
cpreston
Veteran
If all a person wants to do is set-up a slider to get tracking motion shots or preprogrammed timelapse, I would definitely suggest that person focus on the second shooter or the other digital controller technology that Kessler offers. Kessler also offers an analog motion control system that may be more useful in other situations, such as getting quick b-roll shots or using a motorized head on the end of a crane. Both systems have similar capabilities, but have different strengths and weaknesses. Kessler products are generally well made and they seem to price them correctly for the market and so that they can make enough profit to stay in business. If you watch used prices on ebay, most of the products go for about 2/3rds of their new prices, which is on the upper end of support equipment for videography and indicates that they are not overcharging on what most people consider to be the worth of their equipment. Certain equipment like their Kwik release system goes for about 80% of new, which is quite high. They also offer a lifetime warranty.
As to whether it is better to use their analog or digital motion control systems, opinions vary depending on use.
As to whether it is better to use their analog or digital motion control systems, opinions vary depending on use.
Michael Thames
Carbonite Member
OK.... I received the Kessler second shooter 3 axis bundle on Thursday. It was fairly simple to set up and quite frankly a revelation, and has taken my potential to new horizons! I'll post some footage soon.
That said, my Shark slider is much smoother than the Kessler for hand done slider shots, the flywheel really makes a difference...... think in terms of organic grass feed ghee, opposed to margarine. I think I'll keep and cherish my Shark slider for projects that could incorporate both.
Oh BTW, here is a link to my neighbor's web site..... she is a genius!!!!!!
http://www.imagesbyjf.com/Art/Art/i-sg6Q3r6/A
That said, my Shark slider is much smoother than the Kessler for hand done slider shots, the flywheel really makes a difference...... think in terms of organic grass feed ghee, opposed to margarine. I think I'll keep and cherish my Shark slider for projects that could incorporate both.
Oh BTW, here is a link to my neighbor's web site..... she is a genius!!!!!!
http://www.imagesbyjf.com/Art/Art/i-sg6Q3r6/A
Michael Thames
Carbonite Member
Update..... I've had the Kessler 3 axis Second Shooter for a little over a week now. I love this thing1 In fact it has really stimulated my interest in making my documentary, due to the really cool creative shots you can program into this thing. It's also fantastic for doing product shots, as well as the back and forth motion for interviews etc. I also have the Shark slider which for hand use is much better than the Kessler, the Shark is smoother. I must admit however I haven't used the Kessler other than with motion control, so it's just my first impression.
However, the Shark's CF rails are wider than the Kessler, and my C100 with the Ninja Blade is some what top heavy especially if you factor in the pan and tilt head on which sits the C100. Yesterday I was shooting some footage of my shop..... panned the camera up which threw the weight to the back causing the whole thing to tip over...... I broke both HDMI cable inserts but fortunately caught the thing before it hit the ground. I my opinion the rails on this are too close together to spread the balance out well. The issue isn't the weight which I believe this thing is rated for 20 pounds and under, the problem is the balance. The first day I used it only on sliding back and forth and had a Canon 70-200 f2.8 IS USM II which weighs over 2 pounds and the tilt worked fine but I didn't tilt it back much.
So, just a word of warning these things really need to be balanced with two support systems, It doesn't really work well on the tripod alone (I don't think any 3 foot slider would) but it really doesn't work as a table top either, in fact it's much worse used like that with a C100. With the Shark used in the table top configuration it seems much more stable. That said, I love the Kessler and don't know how I ever lived without it.
However, the Shark's CF rails are wider than the Kessler, and my C100 with the Ninja Blade is some what top heavy especially if you factor in the pan and tilt head on which sits the C100. Yesterday I was shooting some footage of my shop..... panned the camera up which threw the weight to the back causing the whole thing to tip over...... I broke both HDMI cable inserts but fortunately caught the thing before it hit the ground. I my opinion the rails on this are too close together to spread the balance out well. The issue isn't the weight which I believe this thing is rated for 20 pounds and under, the problem is the balance. The first day I used it only on sliding back and forth and had a Canon 70-200 f2.8 IS USM II which weighs over 2 pounds and the tilt worked fine but I didn't tilt it back much.
So, just a word of warning these things really need to be balanced with two support systems, It doesn't really work well on the tripod alone (I don't think any 3 foot slider would) but it really doesn't work as a table top either, in fact it's much worse used like that with a C100. With the Shark used in the table top configuration it seems much more stable. That said, I love the Kessler and don't know how I ever lived without it.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Good feedback Michael, I too have been trying to decide between the Second Shooter and the RRM OMC Director. I am definitely locked in now on the Kesseler. I have a new corporate client who wants to shoot a lot of interviews and having this for b-cam will add value to our services. Not going to pull the trigger just yet but will probably see if there are any Black Friday deals out there for it.
Your friend's photos are exquisite although a tiny bit too Photoshopped for my taste. She is very talented, I just prefer a less post processed look on stills but her work has a very commercially appealing look, great for editorial.
Your friend's photos are exquisite although a tiny bit too Photoshopped for my taste. She is very talented, I just prefer a less post processed look on stills but her work has a very commercially appealing look, great for editorial.
cpreston
Veteran
The cineslider can be used on a single tripod if you have a hard flat mount. I use mine with a 100mm bowl and a Kessler quick release plate and it doesn't flex. It also want fall over if you have a heavy tripod like the Kessler k-pod. Or you can just throw some sandbags on your normal tripod. I've found that it is important to keep the center of weight in the middle of the slider in order to get the smoothest moves, which often means taking any extra weight off of the top of the C100 and mounting it at the base or off the camera when doing tilts.