Canon R5 Announced with 8k

puredrifting said:
Don't want to be negative here but we're talking Canon. Prepare to be disappointed, that's just how it is. I love Canon cameras and glass
but expecting them to do what logic dictates is ALWAYS fraught with disappointment.
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I want this to be a great camera, and maybe the fact that the whole market is imploding might push them to go all-out. But at the same time, I expect there will be a weird asterisk that says "8k only up to 16 fps" or "only in 5-bit black and white" or something equally silly.
 
I shoot video mostly on the EOS R these days (1DX II for top end stills and studio video on tripod) because the size is just right, has usable D.IS, has OK (not great) 4K, and barely passable 1080p for YT/IG. The 4K crop has been a challenge for most close up work, so 1080p gets used most of the time. Note the 1080p is not a nice downsample of 4K- it's clearly line skipped as there's significant chunky aliasing, however its kinda blurred so unless one oversharpens (set in camera to 1 or off) it's not a deal breaker.

The EOS R5 is using Canon's new smaller fab process tech. This is already in the 1DX III. This is how you can get a lot more processing performance while also reducing power (energy usage / heat).

8K simply brings Canon up to... phones! (and Red of course, but a different market). HDR TVs and 10-bit monitors are becoming affordable (have been for a while), so I'd expect 1080p and 4K to have 10-bit. 8K should also get 10-bit, as it's needed for 8K HDR TVs, and this could easily be done with smaller process fab tech and not overheat. Storage will definitely be H.265. So there's plenty of compute power and storage is easy. However Canon is known for crippling, so 8K 10-bit may not happen (not a deal breaker for me). 4K really needs to be 10-bit (how about 12-bit? Totally possible, technically). And again, that new smaller fab tech should also mean lower RS. Remember Canon has been using really ancient (large fab) tech for a long long time, milking it until the end. Now they are in trouble financially and they need to make quick cash. That's not possible in the pro market as it's way too small. By creating a killer EOS R5 at under $4K, along with tons of new (amazing) RF glass, they'll sell like crazy and make a LOT of money in a short time.

The 1DX III footage looks pretty outstanding from what I've seen, reminds me of the FX9 in terms of the colors and detail (can do really saturated color and still look good). S-Cinetone really helped push 'default' color up a big notch (closer to ARRI).

Canon needs cash and they need to move all those new RF lenses: expect the EOS R5 to be the least crippled Canon release in Canon's history. Think of all the free advertising that will happen with influencers if they don't cripple it (too much)!

If we think of the JP cameras in the same way as cars, all coming from a common parent company, e.g. General Motors and Chevy, Cadillac, GMC, Buick etc., so we've got General Camera, let's call it Keiretsu Cameras or KCam for short, then it looks like sub-brand Canon is going to release the A7S III as the EOS R5. If the sub brands are allowed to go all out, then the A7S III will have to be pretty amazing (and perhaps won't even be updated/released or will be delayed even further to wait for the R5 hype and excitement to pass).

EDIT: KCam sounds Korean, perhaps JPCam or JCam makes more sense.
 
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jcs said:
Note the 1080p is not a nice downsample of 4K- it's clearly line skipped as there's significant chunky aliasing, however its kinda blurred so unless one oversharpens (set in camera to 1 or off) it's not a deal breaker.
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The EOS R clearly uses a 4K downsample for the 1080p crop output. The rolling shutter is the same as the 4K output. The crop is the same as the 4K output. When you switch over to the 1080p crop from the 4K mode, the screen doesn't even blink. The resolved detail is exactly the same as my C300 MKII in 1080p mode.

The full frame 1080p mode is pixel binned and I only over use it when somebody desperately wants to shoot in 60p.
 

1DX III 4K 10-bit example. Note how well skin tones hold up with green and yellow ambient reflected light. Actor is wearing a lot of makeup, so not the best test for skintones, however overall the color is very saturated and still looks good, and detail is excellent with no visible aliasing when viewed in 4K. Highlights are OK / good enough (compared to current EOS R / 1DX II). I'd expect the EOS R5 to be similar and possibly better: this camera will be marketed to the mass market vs. sports shooters, so it's possible they'll allow better video quality (clearly so, 8K vs. 6K, though might be 420 in 8K, and 422 in 4K. 444 12-bit is totally possible given the new hardware specs (not likely though)).
 
cpreston said:
The EOS R clearly uses a 4K downsample for the 1080p crop output. The rolling shutter is the same as the 4K output. The crop is the same as the 4K output. When you switch over to the 1080p crop from the 4K mode, the screen doesn't even blink. The resolved detail is exactly the same as my C300 MKII in 1080p mode.

The full frame 1080p mode is pixel binned and I only over use it when somebody desperately wants to shoot in 60p.
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I never use 1080p crop, will test later today if I have time.

EDIT: tested Movie Crop: it's a 1.8x crop that only has an effect if shooting 1080p: same crop as 4K, except you get a 1080p file. Funny thing is the 1080p file looks very similar to the 4K file in detail, so they are indeed downsampling in this specific mode (Movie Crop at 1080p only). Also shows that the 4K isn't really 4K (need 6K => 4K).

  • 1080p file output is horizontal pixel binned + vertical line skipped and provides FF FOV & DOF. Due to the line skipping there's aliasing and a loss of detail. The FF wide FOV and shallow DOF make this mode useful for close and medium shots or when there's not enough room to back up to cover the entire shot
  • 1080p file output with Movie Crop enabled is effectively a 2x downsample from the UHD crop to HD before passing the frame to the compressor. Perhaps useful if using APS-C lenses and needing 1080p or smaller files (not very useful otherwise: might as well use 4K)
 
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Gweilo66 said:
Hmmm. I wouldn't be so sure re C100mkIII
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I am being optimistic and logical, however we all know that logic has not been a priority in Canon's Handbook lately. But it does look they will be coming out swinging with the R5, let's just hope they score a home run.

On another note, yes Canon can introduce the same 8k they are planning for the R5, but it's not going to be raw or 10 bit to kill their C500 II, and for sure it will have a major crop. I hope though their new cinema lineup has RF mount.
 
Jaime Valles said:
If they remove the artificial 30 minute video recording time limit, I'll buy two of them instantly.

But I'm not holding my breath...
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Absolutely, that would be great. However, no way canon would do that as this is one feature which is reserved for their cinema and video cameras line.
 
It's time for them to change...or classify the camera as a 1DC.

Just nonsense limits in cameras in 2020. (Just because something exists doesn't mean it's logical.)

I would try and justify it a bit if they must and say anything over $1000 should have no recording limit, but even Sony let it go with the $900 a6400. So if they can do it with an inexpensive consumer/prosumer camera like that, everyone can/should.
 
The Canon Rumors posters are giddy about the camera. Over 1,100 posts already (going back to the thread started on the 28th of January).

On the other hand, Matt Granger got 50% downvotes on his YouTube clip for urging his viewers to curb their enthusiasm.

I guess Canon intended to have a fuller reveal at CP+ but, now that CP+ is canceled, they should have three more months to finalize the specs for the PhotoKina in Köln (May, 27th-30th, assuming no more global emergencies).
 
DLD said:
The Canon Rumors posters are giddy about the camera. Over 1,100 posts already (going back to the thread started on the 28th of January).

On the other hand, Matt Granger got 50% downvotes on his YouTube clip for urging his viewers to curb their enthusiasm.
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Well, it is basically a higher res version of the 1DX III in a smaller body with an R mount. Based on specs, it is the camera most of the Canon enthusiasts have been wanting. I think it is either going to cost much more than people think, or it is going to some major limitations. Mostly, I think it will have some major crippling due to trying to keep it from overheating.
 
NorBro said:
It's time for them to change...or classify the camera as a 1DC.

Just nonsense limits in cameras in 2020. (Just because something exists doesn't mean it's logical.)

I would try and justify it a bit if they must and say anything over $1000 should have no recording limit, but even Sony let it go with the $900 a6400. So if they can do it with an inexpensive consumer/prosumer camera like that, everyone can/should.
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I did not know Sony offered a sub $1k camera with unlimited recording, that means the upcoming S model will have unlimited recording! I do agree though that it should become the norm, that's why I like Panasonic.
 
Sony seems to have more heat issues with their small body ergonomic choices. So they were probably "hiding" behind the 30 min. limit on purpose. This is a big topic for the upcoming Canon 5R. If Canon keeps a 30 min. time limit it will offend many potential video buyers. But as the resolutions go stupidly up, heat will be an issue. They might need to have a system of time limits per resolution but that is just more complicated...
 
cpreston said:
Well, it is basically a higher res version of the 1DX III in a smaller body with an R mount...
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I would assume that 1D XMKIII would have superior processing power, codecs and capability to record and output Raw. It'll also be much heftier in hand and far more expensive.

cpreston said:
. Based on specs, it is the camera most of the Canon enthusiasts have been wanting...
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If they're expecting a decent hybrid at a decent price, then the conclusion won't be known until the final specs and the final price are. Given the preceding years of Canon feature crippling, this is likely to be a decent stills camera but an average video camera due to a crop, codecs and whatever else Canon can think of.

And, given fairly tepid reviews of C500 MKII, it's also possible that Canon can't compete with Sony on pure sensor quality. And presuming 45 MPX rumors are in the ballpark, it'll fall significantly short of A7RIV on photo resolution. Which means it's also likely to be priced lower. Which is why I guessed $3,000. But, as Samuel speculated, it could rise a few hundred dollars higher too.

cpreston said:
I think it is either going to cost much more than people think, or it is going to some major limitations..
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At $3,000, it'll have limitations on video, at least, compared to 1D XMKIII. And it'd make no sense for Canon to release two cameras at the same price point simultaneously. If counting roughly half way between EOS R and 1DX, then you get to about $4,000 of S1H. But, whereas Panasonic had no higher priced model to protect, Canon does.

Additionally, while R5 takes on a stills flagship role, R6 might be Canon's second camera as a videocentric response to the S1/S1R, Z6/Z7, A7III/A7RIV competitors. Which might explain why there is no A7SIII anywhere in the Sony lineup. If there were, it'd swallow the entire video portion of the market and the cartel seeks to have equal representation from all members.

Especially, if it's more or less the same camera under four different brands.
 
I would be content with 10bit codecs, no 30 min limit and no crop up to 4k30p. Like the Panny S1, I think that bar is fair from a technical point of view. Its 2020. The 1DX MKIII is quite a heavy video spec camera, so I want to have some optimism that time has caught up with the 8bit 4:2:0 regime. Even if they have to go to a 1 hour time limit for 4k and unlimited for 1080p that would be fine.
 
I really think Canon has decided to get in on the hybrid mirrorless market. They dismissed it for awhile, but the drop in the photography market and the constant online complaining has made them rethink the strategy. Canon did this R5 announcement right before the release of the 1DXIII to let the video people know they had a specific hybrid product aimed at them coming to the market. I just don't think it is going to be cheap. This camera might end up backfiring like the 1DC.

I also think there is going to be a big tradeoff between bit rates, resolution, and heat management. If this camera is going to be what video people want, it is going to have to have active cooling. The XC-10 had active cooling so it isn't out of range for Canon's design for hybrids, but photographers are not going to be happy.
 
It would be nice to forget about photography for a model or two. Just make a very specific video-oriented system in a stills body, even one that's modified a bit.

Even a XC10/15-like body with ND filters would be great. Something lightweight you can hold in your hands.
 
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