C500: Canon C700 Production

[Eric Coughlin]

Here's the pricing information that Codex provided me:

Codex Recorder CDX-36150 $7000

Codex Capture Drive Dock includes Codex Production Suite $5750

Codex Capture Drive 2.0 [1TB] CDX-37018 $5350

Codex Capture Drive 2.0 [2TB] CDX-37020 $6950

1TB records up to 50 minutes 4K RAW at 24fps

Wow, those Capture Drives aren't cheap. Probably would need at least two cards, so easily $20k+ to use the Codex.

Doesn't the C700 do RAW output through SDI like the C300 Mark II? So you could use an Odyseey or the like, and thus the only real advantage to the Codex would be integrated ergonomics? $17k is a lot to pay for that.

I hear people saying the Codex workflow is getting popular. What is good about it compared to other RAW workflows?

 

[Jim Martin]

I had a chance to play with the C700 today at the Canon Hollywood open house. It was pretty cool that they had the one of the three prototypes that were used to film, "The Calling". They had the prototype rigged up for handheld shooting so you could see what it felt like on your shoulder, that's me with it on my shoulder. I have to say, the weight was very reasonable, not much heavier than a C300 MKII. The shoulder pad, to me, felt awkward, it didn't mold around your shoulder at all, it felt like a soft 2x4. The EVF is really nice, I liked it a lot. It had false color for exposure and a set of abbreviated menu controls so you could access the "traditional" Canon menu structure directly from the buttons on the EVF, it looked almost identical to the C100/300/300 MKII menus, but then there are also Arri-like soft buttons with a similar sort of menu control layout on the operator side of the camera. The DIT/AC side of the camera has a very nice tiltable pad with a control knob. Overall, if you are comfortable with the C300 MKII, you would feel right at home on the C700. The form factor and relative "non-tallness" is welcomed, I get kind of tired of how tall a fully rigged C100/300 is, it's kind of awkward. The C700 reminded me much more of the Amira, although it's not a luxuriously simple as the Arri.

The Canon reps told me that they too have heard that the C700 VF will be compatible with the C300 MKII, but had not tried it yet and they opined, "Who would pay $6k for a VF for a C300 MKII?" The camera they were displaying on sticks with the Canon Cinema 30-300 zoom was supposedly an actual production unit. It was anodized/painted the familiar gray while the prototype I had on my shoulder was not. They said Canon Japan owns the three prototypes in the world that are all out on loan. I asked what happens to the prototypes, they said at least one will be put into a glass display case at Canon in NY. One at home in Japan and possibly one will end up at Canon Europe HQ, wherever that is? (UK?) They had the production unit displayed with the Codex back on it and two reps from Codex were there. Interestingly, they had a Codex DIT station there and they reps were able to go through the edit of "The Calling" for me and were able to show me how much detail was contained in the blacks, it was impressive. The shot with the two rock climbers wearing the headlamps? They took that shot and brought up the blacks and mids and it was quite amazing to see how much good, clean, not muddy or macroblocked or grainy detail there was left in the shot compared to what is seen in the final edit. It was nice seeing "The Calling" playing out on a calibrated Canon 4K HDR monitor, playing off of a Codex raw file of the edit. I can tell you that all of us who have only seen "The Calling" on-line are not seeing nearly all of the detail, latitude and brilliance of what is actually on the source Codex RAW source material.

Jim Martin was there (sorry I didn't have time to chat with you Jim, you were in deep conversation with another DP), the turnout during the hour I was there was pretty healthy, at least two dozen DPs, DITs and ACs streaming in and out. They had a model sitting in front of window with shutters, backlit with an Arri HMI, they had her keyed with an Area 48 four panel Array through what looked like a softbox the size of a Medium Chimera. The BG was black cloth festooned with twinkle lights. So a good representation of challenging lighting to be able to resolve the heavy contrast range of the image. To me, the skin tones were absolutely beautiful, the same that you see in "The Calling". I had a chance recently to shoot some test footage with the Arri Alexa SXT and I have to say, the C700 is not in the same class as far as overall image characteristics as the Arri sensor, in my opinion. But that's okay because the C700 image has a beauty of it's own that is different than the Arri image. The image on the Canon in comparison is lacking in a certain organic fine detail that I notice on the Arri. The C700 is obviously capable of making beautiful images, it really has a superb picture, but it is more in line to be compared with the Varicams, F55, Reds and not the Alexa SXT. But the Arri is about $112K with the accessories, the C700 is a mere $28k for the EF or PL body. The accessories like the EVF, side control are not cheap but not outrageous either, you will still come in well under $40k. And it's a Canon that finally shoots in Prores! As far as the image compared to the Amira, I have not shot with the Amir and I know it is the same sensor as the Alexa and Alexa Mini. But I don't know for a fact that the footage between the Alexa and Amira are identical.

I agree with those who think that Canon will have some pretty good success with this camera. It's not ground breaking for the most part although it will be the only camera in it's class the same killer AF functions with EF and EF-S lenses that the C300 MKII has. Yes, it's only 4.5K, not 6K or 8K but I feel for the majority of episodic production, nobody (except the new Netflix mandate on origination series) cares that much about 6k or 8k. Yet. For features, Canon was smart to partner with Codex, the Codex workflow is becoming pretty entrenched. The Codex reps told me that there are seven series currently shooting with the Codex workflow so who knows, maybe they are onto something? For my work, I would never need the Codex workflow, XF-AVC and or Prores would more than suffice. It will be interesting to see who shoots a feature on this camera first and what it turns out like. I have to say, when you get to cameras of this level, the images on all of the competition and this camera are so good, it's ridiculous. There are slight and subtle differences but I see material from the F500 and F65, REDs, the Varicams, this camera and the Arris and they all look incredible. You are paying for convenience and design philosophy in a way more than one camera being a LOT better than another.

It will be interesting to see if Canon has to reduce the price to achieve their goals for moving units. Remember how large Canon is though, the C700 may be more of a prestige product than a product that requires them to sell a certain amount. They are definitely selling plenty of C300 MKIIs so maybe market domination doesn't matter so much for them. From what I saw and experienced just spending an hour with it, not shooting any tests but at least getting into the menu structure and seeing what it could do live with calibrated high end monitoring, I think it's a solid choice for many types of production and for many typs of DPs. It's not a RED or an Amira and I don't think it is trying to be. If it was my money, I would be hard pressed to decide between the Amira or the C700. They come out to basically the same price. The Amira is rock solid, proven, has that amazing Arri color science and really is like a digital film camera. But it's not even a native UHD sensor. The Canon also has beautiful images and a greater than 4k imager but is more complex to operate. But it has the killer AF features, which for documentary, reality, run and gun kind of shooting can be a real lifesaver as all of the great C300 MKII footage that has been posted here has proven. If I was dropping that kind of money, it would be a difficult choice.

If anyone has any specific questions, I didn't take detailed notes about the camera but I can at least give you an answer based upon what I saw. I don't think the C700 has the same kind of on board monitor as the C300 MKII, which isn't a big deal as most productions using this type of camera would have an operator monitor and or the EVF and an AC monitor for the opposite side.

Great write senior!.....I thought that might be you but by the time I was able to chat with you, it appears you had left the building!...that was the DP from Deadliest Catch I was chatting with among others.
Anyway, glad you made it out got to see the new, impressive baby!

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com

 

[puredrifting]

Doesn't the C700 do RAW output through SDI like the C300 Mark II? So you could use an Odyseey or the like, and thus the only real advantage to the Codex would be integrated ergonomics? $17k is a lot to pay for that.

I hear people saying the Codex workflow is getting popular. What is good about it compared to other RAW workflows?

From what the Canon reps told me, in front of the Codex guys, the Codex is the only RAW solution for the C700, for now. Since the camera isn't yet shipping, that means that Canon partnered with Codex in the development of the camera whereas CD and Atomos may have to figure it out on their own, how to handle the stream protocols and handshakes, etc.? Also, if you are delivering to a major studio or Netflix/Amazon/Hulu, they automatically will approve Codex since it is well established and has a reputation for bulletproof delivery, it also seems to have security and handshakes baked in that would make piracy and theft much more difficult than a lower end solution might be, but this is just me surmising by hearing hints that Canon and Codex dropped while I was there. If you are familiar with the concept of E&O and completion bonds, Codex is very sought after by underwriters. Codex has evolved into a major player in the feature world and are now trying to make more inroads into episodic work, hence this partnership. I am not sure where that leaves CD and Atomos with this camera with RAW? I assume, but don't know for a fact, that the C700 RAW stream may differ from the C300 MKII RAW stream as far as structure and protocols.

 

[anatusa]

canon stated that the RAW from C700 is not same as C300II, but its similar to C500, But i read somewhere that CD is not going to support C700 for now......
seems like its too expansive for CD to spend hours of programmers work to support C700 and or C500 (i mean all its high frames Pro Res functions), as they dont see its going to be payed out.... maybe they will support c700 some times latter , but i would not count on it..

 

[delete]

Yes, the Codex Capture Drive Dock is required to view files or perform offloads.

Terry,
Does that mean one needs to buy the Codex capture drive doc along with the recorder and 1TB/2TB hard drive?

I guess the 2TB pricing looks better than buying 2x 1TB

Cheers,
Sabyasachi

 

[Eric Coughlin]

Yes, the Codex Capture Drive Dock is required to view files or perform offloads.

One workaround is to playback in camera on the C700, SDI out to a high quality screen, record that screen using a high quality camera (like an Alexa Mini), then copy and paste the Mini's RAW files into your computer using a cheap $50 CFast card reader as opposed to the $5750 Codex Capture Drive Dock.

 

[DLD]

PD, what is your hunch - can C700 Codex Raw be graded to be virtually indistinguishable from the Alexa SXT look?

PS. Great post and don't bother with that Martin guy. The celebrity status has clearly gone to his head.

 

[puredrifting]

Hi DLD:

I am far from a colorist but I think the general colors and look could be made close but to those of us with a critical eye, no, I think the Arris have some Voodoo they put into building their sensor and DSP that the others cannot replicate. That said, we are then at the point of splitting hairs. I don't think we'll really know until someone does that exact test with very controlled parameters that make the test fair and don't favor one camera or the other. Perhaps Zacuto or one of the rental houses will do so when the C700s are out in the wild. It's difficult to explain, the Canon footage on the HDR monitor in 4K off of the Codex looked amazing but the footage I have seen off of the Alexa seems to have a little something the Canon doesn't, it somehow seems a bit more detailed while retaining it's organic film-like feel. But I could be totally wrong too, different material shot by different DPs seen on different monitors too. Until someone does a side by side test with totally equal parameters, I don't think we'll know for sure.

 

[Jim Martin]

PD, what is your hunch - can C700 Codex Raw be graded to be virtually indistinguishable from the Alexa SXT look?

PS. Great post and don't bother with that Martin guy. The celebrity status has clearly gone to his head.

Alright, I'm coming over there!......anyway, some of you might remember that I posted back when the original C300 was out for 6 months, we were hearing that the C300 was working a lot of c camera stuff on Alexa shoots because the Canon LOG was extremely close to the ARRI LOG so post was loving it.

 

[Jim Martin]

Hi DLD:

I am far from a colorist but I think the general colors and look could be made close but to those of us with a critical eye, no, I think the Arris have some Voodoo they put into building their sensor and DSP that the others cannot replicate. That said, we are then at the point of splitting hairs. I don't think we'll really know until someone does that exact test with very controlled parameters that make the test fair and don't favor one camera or the other. Perhaps Zacuto or one of the rental houses will do so when the C700s are out in the wild. It's difficult to explain, the Canon footage on the HDR monitor in 4K off of the Codex looked amazing but the footage I have seen off of the Alexa seems to have a little something the Canon doesn't, it somehow seems a bit more detailed while retaining it's organic film-like feel. But I could be totally wrong too, different material shot by different DPs seen on different monitors too. Until someone does a side by side test with totally equal parameters, I don't think we'll know for sure.

Good points.....but I really enjoyed seeing it projected (2K projector) at the ASC clubhouse last Thursday. I believe Canon is trying to arrange some 4K projection of the footage soon. If that happens, I'll let people know.

now, go Vote!.....and in the words of DeNiro....."be smart about it, don't be stupid".......I'm not condoning a particular candidate with this quote, just the inflection

 

[Jim Martin]

Just got the word and some of you I saw yesterday, the production run 18-80mm will be back here at EVS starting tomorrow by noon, through mid-day on Friday so.....come on down and check it out!....we'll have it on either a C300 MK II or a C100 MK II.....

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com

 

[DLD]

Hi DLD:

I am far from a colorist but I think the general colors and look could be made close but to those of us with a critical eye, no, I think the Arris have some Voodoo they put into building their sensor and DSP that the others cannot replicate. That said, we are then at the point of splitting hairs. I don't think we'll really know until someone does that exact test with very controlled parameters that make the test fair and don't favor one camera or the other. Perhaps Zacuto or one of the rental houses will do so when the C700s are out in the wild. It's difficult to explain, the Canon footage on the HDR monitor in 4K off of the Codex looked amazing but the footage I have seen off of the Alexa seems to have a little something the Canon doesn't, it somehow seems a bit more detailed while retaining it's organic film-like feel. But I could be totally wrong too, different material shot by different DPs seen on different monitors too. Until someone does a side by side test with totally equal parameters, I don't think we'll know for sure.

It's probably a combination of the Color Filter array, their OLPF's, the dual sensor readout and a lot of processing power to keep their information in camera. Plus, some quality pro calibration.

A side note but, as an ex-retailer, you might relate - when Samsung began to manufacture projectors, they brought in a video expert from the US to calibrate the final image as he saw fit. Denon, in the old days, also used to disregard the specs and calibrate their audio equipment by ear. Sony, on the other hand ....

Alright, I'm coming over there!......anyway, some of you might remember that I posted back when the original C300 was out for 6 months, we were hearing that the C300 was working a lot of c camera stuff on Alexa shoots because the Canon LOG was extremely close to the ARRI LOG so post was loving it.

There's also a built-in "ARRI Lut" on C300 MKII, isn't it?

And, to add, all these new cameras deliver performance far beyond the levels the current generation of consumer displays can reproduce. The problem, if you will, is that good programming has a darn long lifespan.

 

[puredrifting]

Oh wow Jim, I may stop by to take a look at that lens. Already spent my lens budget for this year on the 17-55 2.8 IS and the 70-200 2.8 IS II but the 18-80 is definitely in my future. Are you guys going to rent it or only sell it? Would love to rent one for my sizzle I have been shooting, we have a pure outdoor b-roll day scheduled in December, would be a great test for that lens.

 

[indiawilds]

Here's the pricing information that Codex provided me:

Codex Recorder CDX-36150 $7000

Codex Capture Drive Dock includes Codex Production Suite $5750

Codex Capture Drive 2.0 [1TB] CDX-37018 $5350

Codex Capture Drive 2.0 [2TB] CDX-37020 $6950

1TB records up to 50 minutes 4K RAW at 24fps

So if you want to shoot raw, then basically one C700 plus Codex = 3x C300 Mark IIs

Codex Raw workflow (7000 + 5750 + 6950 ) = 19700 at the minimum (assuming one 2 TB card)

So Raw work flow equipment cost is about 70% of the C700 body cost. That I am sure would not be easy for a lot of people (the average joe here). However, it won't matter for large productions for whom this camera is aimed at. I am sure lot of good work will happen on a ProRes workflow as well especially episodic TV.

 

[Jim Martin]

Oh wow Jim, I may stop by to take a look at that lens. Already spent my lens budget for this year on the 17-55 2.8 IS and the 70-200 2.8 IS II but the 18-80 is definitely in my future. Are you guys going to rent it or only sell it? Would love to rent one for my sizzle I have been shooting, we have a pure outdoor b-roll day scheduled in December, would be a great test for that lens.

We will have it in rentals as well.....I suspect we'll have 2 available as soon as the first batch comes in.

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com

 

[jindrich]

Jindrich:

All true but you overlook one significant factor. Netflix has mandated native 4K and in some cases native 6K origination on their original commissioned material. That means no Arri Amira, period. You can shoot your show with an Arri and sell it to Netflix, but if you do a development deal with them and then shoot for them, it isn't going to be on an Arri Amira. If things go the way they have been going, Amazon and Hulu will follow suit. I agree with you, if it were me buying, I would have a hard time choosing between the two because I love Arris, everything about them. But if I had the money in my hand today, I would lean toward the Canon, simply because I am in development on two shows and there is the slight but real chance, we could pitch a sizzle to Netflix, Amazon or Hulu and if they bit, we would need to shoot a native 4K or higher camera. My shows are multicamera shows too so realistically, we would need to buy or lease/rent five or six of them.

1. It will be different for everyone but the mount can be changed, granted Canon Service has to do it. It's really pretty simple though. If you shoot doc/BTS one man band style, you want the EF L, if you shoot with ACs, you want PL. Tough for an owner operator who is renting it out for different types of production though, I agree. They should make it user switchable.
2. Yep, agreed
3. Yep, agreed

I recently shot BTS in Africa on a big Fox show, it was an all Alexa Mini show, shooting three of them. Great tool but not really intended as an all around camera and one fully kitted out with everything you need to turn it into a "shoulder mount camera" puts you at $60k, not really the C700/Amira neighborhood. It will be interesting to see if the C700 is selling in significant numbers by say, NAB 2017. It will be interesting to see if they lower the price by the end of next summer or do what Panasonic had to do with the Varicam 35 when it wasn't selling which was the Varicam LT. Maybe a C500 MKII, a less featured version of the C700 at $19k?

Netflix-Original-4K. Yes, what a messy matter.

The world best's Cinematographers all agree that the latest ALEXA is still the best, unrivaled, most organic dig camera on the market, yet Netflix has forbidden it, because it's a 3.4 rather than 3.8 sensor. They allow you to shoot on a "4K" URSA, C300mkII or FS7 with cheap CP.2s, but reject footage from a top ALEXA SXT Studio with Master Primes shooting 3.4 OpenGate ARRIRAW (!). That's among the silliest suits (Exec Producer) decision in the industry, just as if Trump would tell doctors how to perform surgery. But I digress.

Funny thing is Netflix is forcing cinematographers to use lesser cameras, like say an F55, then DPs must insert Black Pro Mist filters into their MatteBoxes to smooth the harshness and highlight clipping, thus lowering the 4k resolution (true story).

Anyway if shooting (multicam episode) for Netflix ON A BUDGET, giving that they demand 4K 12bit RAW, for someone choosing the new C700, it has to be the Codex version, that's a €60k camera (€32k body+EVF, €8k AKS, €20K Codex back + TB Mags + Dock Reader). Just for ONE camera.
Those productions are considerably better served investing those €60k in FOUR of the new RED SW (5K Dragon) instead of one C700 (the €60k is for four brand new fully functional cameras pckgs btw, not just bodies).



Speaking of Budgets within professional productions. I am a Creative Director in the Advertising field. Our average 30" commercial has productions costs of €200k. They're shot in 2-3 days. Renting an ALEXA or two for a week has a totally irrelevant budget 'HIT' of a few thousand €. No Producer/DP will rent other that ARRI to save some hundreds on a €200k budget.
For episodic drama/TV-film, here in Germany, the average 90min production is shot in 4 weeks and has overall production costs of €1.2-2M. Again the bill of the rented ALEXA bodies is totally irrelevant. I must add that EVERYTHING is shot on ALEXAS in the EU nowadays, and everything TV is shot in ProRes, with ARRIRAW reserved exclusively for feature films.

I spoke to Fabian Wagner -DP for "Sherlock", currently DP for "Game of Thrones"-. He told me he shot Sherlock with the ALEXA at ProRes 422HQ (maybe Netflix execs should listen to EMMY nominated DPs?).




Back to the C700 and its price and features.

At €32k (body+EVF) for the non-Codex version (which maxes at 4K Prores 10 bit 422 @30fps) and priced just like the €32k AMIRA-Premium/Mini, I don't see anybody getting one here, honestly.
Since last year the AMIRA/Minis have totally dominated the EU zone. For factual-TV the 'old C300' is still the nº1 in the rental market (and deservedly so at €160/day), for everything else it's the ARRIs, starting with AMIRAs (Commercials +Docu +TV drama) and now it's the Minis.

The Alexa Mini has been and unexpected, massive success for ARRI. Rental Houses are buying all the units ARRI can manufacture. Originally intended for Drones only, DPs have fallen in love with its lightweight nature and are using them as an A-camera, even replacing the Alexa as a cheaper and more flexible cam. It's also being configured often as a Run&Gun giving the fact it has NDs like the AMIRA.

And it's not €60k for a full Run&Gun setup, but around €40k for the whole package, which includes:
-Alexa Mini body
-PL Mount
-MVF-1 EVF
-Sounddevices MixPre/Beachtek-Mini preamp (new development)
-WoodenCamera VCT Baseplate, rods, batt plate and EVF mount.


If you compare it to the new C700+EVF+Baseplate-AKS, that's €35k. For €5k more, Owner/operators can step up into the Mini, offering their clients the 'ARRI Brand' (never underestimate this) and ALEXA image quality, simplest workflow, 200fps, 12bit4444 4K and even Full Open Gate 3.4k ARRIRAW in-camera recording (a €20k extra for the C700) but using CFast cards for RAW which are 10 times cheaper than the Codex Mags for the C700 (which also the ALEXA SXT uses for RAW).
On top of that there's also 5minute PL/EF/B4 mounts, LDS, 3D-Luts, Motor control, full wireless control, CarMount/Drone/MOVI-ready and a very rugged body that operates at -20º to +50º Celsius (try a RED in Finlad snow or on a Mallorca beach).

That's why the Mini has taken the market by storm, and why I think the Canon C700 stands no chances over here.

 

[DLD]

. I must add that EVERYTHING is shot on ALEXAS in the EU nowadays, and everything TV is shot in ProRes, with ARRIRAW reserved exclusively for feature films...

I assure our German friends that the US productions do not shun the German equipment because pretty much everything on the US TV is shot on Alexa also.

Grüße von ("aus dem"?) Vereinigten Staaten.

 

[Ben Scott]

Amazon is using Alexa for some of its acquisition so upscaled to UHD appears to be good enough for them now.

Specifically Man in the High Castle season 2

 

[starcentral]

As F55 owner, my take and impression on the C700

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?350756-Sony-F55-vs-Canon-C700-impressions

 

[jindrich]

I assure our German friends that the US productions do not shun the German equipment because pretty much everything on the US TV is shot on Alexa also.

Grüße von ("aus dem"?) Vereinigten Staaten.

It's "aus deN", as "States" is plural. German is a funny language.

I somehow got the feeling REDs were quite popular and used abroad in the USA. Over here, I experienced the transition, in the advertising world, of film vs digital. After the very expensive Vipers and F35s, Production Service houses and DPs started to use the first REDs. But they were so unreliable that a rental unit always came with a spare body (for free). As soon as the ALEXAs came to market it became the standard and has since ever been, and no Producer/DP dares putting his reputation in jeopardy by using something else these days. For good a reason, as ARRI image is still undisputed.

I've been told the very last DSMC2 REDs are a different story, and particularly, the new Scarlet Dragon to be at very sweet spot and affordable option for owners/operators.

Canons are here still viewed as the tool for low budget and fast paced factual TV.

Going back to the C700. Looks like without the Codex subsystem (€20k additional option), it's essentially a 4K 10bit 422 camera maxing at 30fps, with about the same DR as the C300/500 series. That puts it along the "Advanced" AMIRA (if comparing the 10bit 422 codec), which costs even less than the C700. But then the Canon is so short on features it doesn't make sense.
It's like a Volkswagen Golf being more expensive than a Audi A4. Who would buy this?

I expect Canon lowering the price very soon, otherwise they won't sell a single unit (in the EU at least). But what do I know.