C500: Canon C700 Production

Quick poll then; would you guys rather see a story video or a nice collection of images? Do you need to be entertained by a short film or is that potentially distracting from the purpose?
To me, in the camera roll-out, the story is irrelevant ... but a good one can help hold one's attention. That said, I have not seen a good one yet.

IMO, more important are the settings/lighting variables - warm colors, cool colors, indoors, outdoors, city setting, mixed color temps and how they interact with human faces. I'd also like to see each shot with a red, green or blue item but not all at once (the late Gordon Willis called it a "Sherwin Williams explosion"). And no excessive grading, including the orange-teal stuff.

PS. That Zakuto camera shootout of 2012 (?) with the person walking into the room from the outside, passing the bright window, then walking by folks with different skin tones and attire ensembles, and subsequently sitting down into an unlit corner with a practical nearby is almost a perfect camera test scenario. Red Raven's clip of semi-naked models with eight layers of blue powder makeup is at the opposite end of perfect.
 
Quick poll then; would you guys rather see a story video or a nice collection of images? Do you need to be entertained by a short film or is that potentially distracting from the purpose?

Not looking to be entertained by a camera roll out video. I watch them with the sound off.

If there's any 'story', then pure visual storytelling' devoid of exposition, explanation, etc. Just my particular taste.

Whatever you do, look forward to seeing what you make.
 
Brings up a good point as I may be tackling a camera rollout video soon myself. I felt that this piece did a great job of showing off what the camera can do without the sort of self-absorbed/contrived nature of a lot of these kinds of video that strive to tell a story while being reverse engineered from making pretty pictures under multiple conditions. Quick poll then; would you guys rather see a story video or a nice collection of images? Do you need to be entertained by a short film or is that potentially distracting from the purpose?

Hello Charles,
As far as your camera test is concerned, I prefer one with a storyline and will eagerly wait for it.

I really loved this film "The Calling" and I mostly got the shots that I was looking for. However, this entire shoot was in RAW. I would like to see one shot with XFAVC, ProRes and RAW, so that I know how much more details is just because of the RAW. Not every production that I will be involved in can afford RAW. This can form a part II of the film, as I am sure you will study it to decide how it works out. May be just a minute or two of this would be of great help. Producers can then clearly understand the limitations.

Cheers,
Sabyasachi
 
Quick poll then; would you guys rather see a story video or a nice collection of images? Do you need to be entertained by a short film or is that potentially distracting from the purpose?

I am only an amateur, but I would prefer a collection of images, each showcasing for a specific purpose. Like codecs, low light, daytime, rolling shutter and so on.
 
Last edited:
Quick poll then; would you guys rather see a story video or a nice collection of images? Do you need to be entertained by a short film or is that potentially distracting from the purpose?

collection of images from likely, realistic production scenarios. Difficult lighting situations. Time budget constraints. Mixed lighting scenarios (ie: big plate windows, ugly overhead fluorescents where you don't have the budget/manpower to change out.) High contrast shots (ie: typical daylight blazing sun, moving car interiors with sun issues, dim interiors with blazing, blown out windows, etc). Extreme low light shots- how few FC's can we realistically shoot with? All related to skin tone (extremely light, extremely dark, and olive complexions).

Geoff's comparison tests are always helpful. I realize a roll out video you're going to need to see the camera in it's best light, as opposed to finding where the image breaks, but for myself, having an indication ahead of time of trouble spots is always helpful- for further testing and discussions with production.

Personally I disliked the Raven promo video- not helpful other than to push for many other options.
 
I like to see what it can do in a best case scenario.

For the most part I love to see talented people making as beautiful an image with the tools as possible.

Happy for it to be narrative but I also like to see how it deals with high contrast - bright windows into dark rooms. I like it to dig in the shadows and also see the highlight rolloff.

And I like to see the colour science at work and how it deals with different types of lighting sources.

So no pressure :)
 
The video looks rather nice. Pretty images indeed.

But I don't know about the camera. In the EU (might be different in the USA), the C700 along with its EVF costs the same as the top of the line AMIRA kit (EVF + all licenses 4K UHD, 4444) or the ALEXA Mini. The ARRIs offer more codecs and slowmo fps, dead simple workflow, no cropping, anamorphic, easy interchangeable mounts, LDS, internal motor controller, wireless communication with remote FF, motor-less remote control of ENG lenses (Cabrios) etc, etc, not to mention the excellent track record. They're on an entire different league IMO (at the same price point as the C700).

The C700 on display still needs an external Codex ($$) for the higher rates and then it becomes a heavy beast. Plus with the Codex the entire workflow turns as cumbersome as the with the REDs, I don't see that as the right direction.

At this side of the pond, the AMIRAs and ALEXA Minis are flying off the shelves, and are the only cameras Producers ask by name (which is the most important matter after all). You can rent an Amira for 300/day and an Alexa Mini for 400/day or 1500/week. And you can put them on stiks with a 28-340, on a Movi, shoot handheld riding a skateboard, on a copter or a 6m crane and control everything from a WCU4, etc.

I'm afraid Canon will have to lower the price of the C700 in months, just like it had to do with the C300II to move them. The camera is another alexa-me-too, but it comes too late to the market and at the wrong price point IMO.
 
Well that's pretty terrible. At $45,000 for the camera, 150 days of renting just to pay off the camera. Should be renting for more like $850-$1500 per day.
I remember reading Roger Cicala's line that an average camera lives for 20 weeks as a rental. With that in mind, $1,500/w for Amira seems on the low side unless there's a crap load of them sitting on the shelves and then the rental agencies have no choice but to move them.

Or maybe the stuff will last a lot longer than your average rental.
 
Why would a camera last only 20 weeks as a rental? A camera tends to remain popular for 2-3 years, and less popular but still usable for another 2-5 years after that. I'd assume a rental camera may have the occasional repair, and in the rare cases that a camera is destroyed by the renter, insurance would cover that, but to be destroyed (without insurance covering it) or outdated after 20 weeks on average seems rather short to me.

Arri Amira rents for $1872 from LensRentals.com for one day. $1740 for three days from BorrowLenses.com. Renting locally rates tend to be lower than when renting from big rental agencies that ship to you, as do owner/op rental rates tend to be lower than rental agencies.
 
Last edited:
I had a chance to play with the C700 today at the Canon Hollywood open house. It was pretty cool that they had the one of the three prototypes that were used to film, "The Calling". They had the prototype rigged up for handheld shooting so you could see what it felt like on your shoulder, that's me with it on my shoulder. I have to say, the weight was very reasonable, not much heavier than a C300 MKII. The shoulder pad, to me, felt awkward, it didn't mold around your shoulder at all, it felt like a soft 2x4. The EVF is really nice, I liked it a lot. It had false color for exposure and a set of abbreviated menu controls so you could access the "traditional" Canon menu structure directly from the buttons on the EVF, it looked almost identical to the C100/300/300 MKII menus, but then there are also Arri-like soft buttons with a similar sort of menu control layout on the operator side of the camera. The DIT/AC side of the camera has a very nice tiltable pad with a control knob. Overall, if you are comfortable with the C300 MKII, you would feel right at home on the C700. The form factor and relative "non-tallness" is welcomed, I get kind of tired of how tall a fully rigged C100/300 is, it's kind of awkward. The C700 reminded me much more of the Amira, although it's not a luxuriously simple as the Arri.

The Canon reps told me that they too have heard that the C700 VF will be compatible with the C300 MKII, but had not tried it yet and they opined, "Who would pay $6k for a VF for a C300 MKII?" The camera they were displaying on sticks with the Canon Cinema 30-300 zoom was supposedly an actual production unit. It was anodized/painted the familiar gray while the prototype I had on my shoulder was not. They said Canon Japan owns the three prototypes in the world that are all out on loan. I asked what happens to the prototypes, they said at least one will be put into a glass display case at Canon in NY. One at home in Japan and possibly one will end up at Canon Europe HQ, wherever that is? (UK?) They had the production unit displayed with the Codex back on it and two reps from Codex were there. Interestingly, they had a Codex DIT station there and they reps were able to go through the edit of "The Calling" for me and were able to show me how much detail was contained in the blacks, it was impressive. The shot with the two rock climbers wearing the headlamps? They took that shot and brought up the blacks and mids and it was quite amazing to see how much good, clean, not muddy or macroblocked or grainy detail there was left in the shot compared to what is seen in the final edit. It was nice seeing "The Calling" playing out on a calibrated Canon 4K HDR monitor, playing off of a Codex raw file of the edit. I can tell you that all of us who have only seen "The Calling" on-line are not seeing nearly all of the detail, latitude and brilliance of what is actually on the source Codex RAW source material.

Jim Martin was there (sorry I didn't have time to chat with you Jim, you were in deep conversation with another DP), the turnout during the hour I was there was pretty healthy, at least two dozen DPs, DITs and ACs streaming in and out. They had a model sitting in front of window with shutters, backlit with an Arri HMI, they had her keyed with an Area 48 four panel Array through what looked like a softbox the size of a Medium Chimera. The BG was black cloth festooned with twinkle lights. So a good representation of challenging lighting to be able to resolve the heavy contrast range of the image. To me, the skin tones were absolutely beautiful, the same that you see in "The Calling". I had a chance recently to shoot some test footage with the Arri Alexa SXT and I have to say, the C700 is not in the same class as far as overall image characteristics as the Arri sensor, in my opinion. But that's okay because the C700 image has a beauty of it's own that is different than the Arri image. The image on the Canon in comparison is lacking in a certain organic fine detail that I notice on the Arri. The C700 is obviously capable of making beautiful images, it really has a superb picture, but it is more in line to be compared with the Varicams, F55, Reds and not the Alexa SXT. But the Arri is about $112K with the accessories, the C700 is a mere $28k for the EF or PL body. The accessories like the EVF, side control are not cheap but not outrageous either, you will still come in well under $40k. And it's a Canon that finally shoots in Prores! As far as the image compared to the Amira, I have not shot with the Amir and I know it is the same sensor as the Alexa and Alexa Mini. But I don't know for a fact that the footage between the Alexa and Amira are identical.

I agree with those who think that Canon will have some pretty good success with this camera. It's not ground breaking for the most part although it will be the only camera in it's class the same killer AF functions with EF and EF-S lenses that the C300 MKII has. Yes, it's only 4.5K, not 6K or 8K but I feel for the majority of episodic production, nobody (except the new Netflix mandate on origination series) cares that much about 6k or 8k. Yet. For features, Canon was smart to partner with Codex, the Codex workflow is becoming pretty entrenched. The Codex reps told me that there are seven series currently shooting with the Codex workflow so who knows, maybe they are onto something? For my work, I would never need the Codex workflow, XF-AVC and or Prores would more than suffice. It will be interesting to see who shoots a feature on this camera first and what it turns out like. I have to say, when you get to cameras of this level, the images on all of the competition and this camera are so good, it's ridiculous. There are slight and subtle differences but I see material from the F500 and F65, REDs, the Varicams, this camera and the Arris and they all look incredible. You are paying for convenience and design philosophy in a way more than one camera being a LOT better than another.

It will be interesting to see if Canon has to reduce the price to achieve their goals for moving units. Remember how large Canon is though, the C700 may be more of a prestige product than a product that requires them to sell a certain amount. They are definitely selling plenty of C300 MKIIs so maybe market domination doesn't matter so much for them. From what I saw and experienced just spending an hour with it, not shooting any tests but at least getting into the menu structure and seeing what it could do live with calibrated high end monitoring, I think it's a solid choice for many types of production and for many typs of DPs. It's not a RED or an Amira and I don't think it is trying to be. If it was my money, I would be hard pressed to decide between the Amira or the C700. They come out to basically the same price. The Amira is rock solid, proven, has that amazing Arri color science and really is like a digital film camera. But it's not even a native UHD sensor. The Canon also has beautiful images and a greater than 4k imager but is more complex to operate. But it has the killer AF features, which for documentary, reality, run and gun kind of shooting can be a real lifesaver as all of the great C300 MKII footage that has been posted here has proven. If I was dropping that kind of money, it would be a difficult choice.

If anyone has any specific questions, I didn't take detailed notes about the camera but I can at least give you an answer based upon what I saw. I don't think the C700 has the same kind of on board monitor as the C300 MKII, which isn't a big deal as most productions using this type of camera would have an operator monitor and or the EVF and an AC monitor for the opposite side.
 

Attachments

  • 01.jpg
    01.jpg
    86 KB · Views: 0
  • 02.jpg
    02.jpg
    107.3 KB · Views: 0
  • 03.jpg
    03.jpg
    60.5 KB · Views: 0
  • 04.jpg
    04.jpg
    81.1 KB · Views: 0
  • 05.jpg
    05.jpg
    99.2 KB · Views: 0
  • 06.jpg
    06.jpg
    110.5 KB · Views: 0
Wow, rental prices in the USA are outrageous.

As mentioned, in the EU/UK the Amira is 300/day and the Alexa Mini 400-500/day. Both cameras cost €32k here, that's for the Amira Premium-all-in incl EVF, or the Mini without the EVF.
You can rent the Alexa mini for €1,500/week. It comes with EVF, cards, batts etc, that's €40k tops. These cams are HIGHLY demanded and never on the shelf. A rental house can potentially make €75k+ on the first year alone, then it will be hot for another 2 years and still on demand for 2 years more. The actual €1,500/7day week is totally fair IMO.


Regarding the C700, the video in the promo looks terrific. Very very nice color skin and DR. But that's the C700 WITH the Codex backpack. How much is the Codex unit?

The new ALEXA SXT EV cost €60k here (including EVF, SXR module, handles, mounting arms, wedge, cables, etc), while a C700+EVF is €32k, and further AKS -as the Alexa kit- will take it up to €38-40k. Then you have to add the CODEX Recorder to do everything the Alexa SXT already does IN-CAMERA (actually it does WAY more). If the Codex is €15-20K you're already at the €60K Alexa SXT!

BTW at €60k this no longer an owner camera, more a rental item. The SXT body is around €800/day. Can the €60k C700+Codex costs less to rent if it costs the same to buy?
And even if it were cheaper, like €700/day, no Producer will care sparing €100 when the total production will cost tens of thousands €€/day
On the other hand, I don't know a single Producer/Client who'd choose a Canon before an ARRI. And even less if they cost the same to rent/buy.



The €32k C700+EVF (Codex-less) is in competition with the €32k AMIRA Premium4k/ Alexa Mini, as they're priced the same (at least in the EU). That still falls within the range of the owner/operator. But who'd buy the C700 rather than the AMIRA?

1) The C700 is either EF OR PL. Huge mistake. Every other manufacturer have user installable mounts. What's up with Canon engineers??
2) Without the CODEX, the C700 only does 4444 2k60p, or 4k60p at 422, while the AMIRA does 12 bit 4444 up to 200fps at 2k, and to 60p at 4K.
3) The Amira has Pre-record, 3D Luts, LDS, integrated iris/servo/zoom (with wireless control) for ENG style B4 and PL lenses, etc, etc..


If comparing the C700 with the Alexa Mini, the Mini does all the above plus in-camera ARRIRAW at 30fps, 4:3 open-gate and true 2:1 anamorphic. It also has an integrated motor control and full wireless control of the entire camera, which, being so small, allows setting the body inside a MOVI with a PL15-45mm with zoom/iris/focus motors (3 simple cables) and a Teradek, and rig that to a Copter, a Crane a Car or anything you can imagine, with the operator being 300-1000 feet away controlling the cam 3 axis (Movi Mimic) and full remote control of the camera settings/fps as well as PL lens iris/zoom/focus with the WCU4. Try this with the -equally priced- C700.


We all like competition as that brings us better cameras at lower prices, but I'm afraid this time Canon has come unfortunately too late and too expensive with the C700.
 
The €32k C700+EVF (Codex-less) is in competition with the €32k AMIRA Premium4k/ Alexa Mini, as they're priced the same (at least in the EU). That still falls within the range of the owner/operator. But who'd buy the C700 rather than the AMIRA?

1) The C700 is either EF OR PL. Huge mistake. Every other manufacturer have user installable mounts. What's up with Canon engineers??
2) Without the CODEX, the C700 only does 4444 2k60p, or 4k60p at 422, while the AMIRA does 12 bit 4444 up to 200fps at 2k, and to 60p at 4K.
3) The Amira has Pre-record, 3D Luts, LDS, integrated iris/servo/zoom (with wireless control) for ENG style B4 and PL lenses, etc, etc..


If comparing the C700 with the Alexa Mini, the Mini does all the above plus in-camera ARRIRAW at 30fps, 4:3 open-gate and true 2:1 anamorphic. It also has an integrated motor control and full wireless control of the entire camera, which, being so small, allows setting the body inside a MOVI with a PL15-45mm with zoom/iris/focus motors (3 simple cables) and a Teradek, and rig that to a Copter, a Crane a Car or anything you can imagine, with the operator being 300-1000 feet away controlling the cam 3 axis (Movi Mimic) and full remote control of the camera settings/fps as well as PL lens iris/zoom/focus with the WCU4. Try this with the -equally priced- C700.


We all like competition as that brings us better cameras at lower prices, but I'm afraid this time Canon has come unfortunately too late and too expensive with the C700.

Jindrich:

All true but you overlook one significant factor. Netflix has mandated native 4K and in some cases native 6K origination on their original commissioned material. That means no Arri Amira, period. You can shoot your show with an Arri and sell it to Netflix, but if you do a development deal with them and then shoot for them, it isn't going to be on an Arri Amira. If things go the way they have been going, Amazon and Hulu will follow suit. I agree with you, if it were me buying, I would have a hard time choosing between the two because I love Arris, everything about them. But if I had the money in my hand today, I would lean toward the Canon, simply because I am in development on two shows and there is the slight but real chance, we could pitch a sizzle to Netflix, Amazon or Hulu and if they bit, we would need to shoot a native 4K or higher camera. My shows are multicamera shows too so realistically, we would need to buy or lease/rent five or six of them.

1. It will be different for everyone but the mount can be changed, granted Canon Service has to do it. It's really pretty simple though. If you shoot doc/BTS one man band style, you want the EF L, if you shoot with ACs, you want PL. Tough for an owner operator who is renting it out for different types of production though, I agree. They should make it user switchable.
2. Yep, agreed
3. Yep, agreed

I recently shot BTS in Africa on a big Fox show, it was an all Alexa Mini show, shooting three of them. Great tool but not really intended as an all around camera and one fully kitted out with everything you need to turn it into a "shoulder mount camera" puts you at $60k, not really the C700/Amira neighborhood. It will be interesting to see if the C700 is selling in significant numbers by say, NAB 2017. It will be interesting to see if they lower the price by the end of next summer or do what Panasonic had to do with the Varicam 35 when it wasn't selling which was the Varicam LT. Maybe a C500 MKII, a less featured version of the C700 at $19k?
 
I couldn't find the UK price of the Codex CDX-36150 recorder. One needs to call the retailers.

CVP UK price for C700 EF is £26,918.62 inc VAT (£22,432.18 without VAT)
the OLED viewfinder is £4,715.38 inc VAT (£3,929.48 without VAT)

Earlier it was mentioned that the US price of the Codex CDX-36150 raw recorder is $6000 usd. But I checked the B&H site and it says price not available.
The C700 EF and C700 PL USA B&H price is 28K
OLED viewfinder 6K
Shoulder unit - 1495

So I guess with the Codex recorder and OLED viewfinder plus C700 EF or PL, the cost in US would be roughly 40K.
 
Codex Recorder and Capture Drive Pricing for Canon C700

Codex Recorder and Capture Drive Pricing for Canon C700

Here's the pricing information that Codex provided me:

Codex Recorder CDX-36150 $7000

Codex Capture Drive Dock includes Codex Production Suite $5750

Codex Capture Drive 2.0 [1TB] CDX-37018 $5350

Codex Capture Drive 2.0 [2TB] CDX-37020 $6950

1TB records up to 50 minutes 4K RAW at 24fps
 
Terry,
Does that mean one needs to buy the Codex capture drive doc along with the recorder and 1TB/2TB hard drive?

I guess the 2TB pricing looks better than buying 2x 1TB

Cheers,
Sabyasachi
 
Back
Top