C500: Canon C700 Announced.

Liam Hall said:
If it's user controllable, I'd call that wireless, not auto focus. And it still needs a focus puller.
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As Geoff Boyle presented in cinematography.net, it looks to be a "user controllable" autofocus system, not a wireless (ref is the C300Mk2- same system I believe). A wireless system as we know it requires the user to chose the actual focus point- with Canon's system looks like you can touch the focus point on a tablet running the app, and the camera focuses for you. I would hope you can choose the rate and rolloff, or cushion of the focus pull- but I don't know haven't used it.

With episodic TV and lower budget features we have to move at a fast clip, always shooting the rehearsal. The focus puller needs to nail the focus without marks, without rehearsal. Not everyone can do it. If an autofocus system actually works, and you can control the timing and points of focus on a rack, I think that's great- it'll up the shot count/ page count on the day.

Pulling focus is not a mundane technical task in my opinion. There is an art to it- when to pull, where to pull, especially on these fast moving shoots. Artistic input is a true asset, whether you are pulling via an Arri FF4, WCU, Preston, whatever. AND if you are pulling focus via a tablet. Plus we know these systems won't work a fair percentage of the time, and your focus puller has to jump in for a manual pull immediately. So yes, always need a talented focus puller. The tools are varied, but the job is the same.

On marketing and corp shoots I often don't get a 1st AC of choice, sometimes none at all, so an autofocus system that works is an asset to me. A walk and talk with a wide open 300mm lens? Yes I do it if I have to but would much rather have a great 1st or a great auto focus system. The latter was simply not an option before.

The question still remains- how well does the system work?
 
klk said:
Can it (7q+) do 120 fps 422 Prores at 4K? with a BNC cable (NOT HDMI) If so what cameras Mitch?
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No, but the camera can't do that either. It can only do it by recording in RAW to the Codex recorder. However the Odyssey7Q+ can record in Apple ProRes 422HQ 4K60p from a number of cameras. And yes, using BNC cables.

Actually, why did I say no? In fact the Odyssey7Q+ CAN do 4K120p in Apple ProRes 422HQ over a single BNC cable, just as you ask. It can do this from the Sony FS5 and the Sony FS700. It's been able to do this for more than a year (well, more than a year on the FS700 anyway). The caveat is that the way those cameras function the 4K120p is only available in a short burst of about 4 seconds, but played back at 24fps the resulting shot lasts 18.3 seconds. That's actually quite a useful length of time when one considers how most high speed photography is used. It also does this without line-skipping or any other degradation of the signal output by the camera's sensor, so the 4K quality matches whether recorded at 24p or 120p, assuming you compensate for the light loss.

So, yeah. Asked and answered.
 
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klk said:
On marketing and corp shoots I often don't get a 1st AC of choice, sometimes none at all, so an autofocus system that works is an asset to me. A walk and talk with a wide open 300mm lens? Yes I do it if I have to but would much rather have a great 1st or a great auto focus system. The latter was simply not an option before.
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Yes, I agree, on small jobs, with small crews or no crews, AF is useful. I'd use it on my jobs. But this camera is aimed at high end cinema and episodic production. I can't see too many high end crews giving up their master primes to use stills lenses, just to use their AF system.
 
Liam Hall said:
Yes, I agree, on small jobs, with small crews or no crews, AF is useful. I'd use it on my jobs. But this camera is aimed at high end cinema and episodic production. I can't see too many high end crews giving up their master primes to use stills lenses, just to use their AF system.
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Regardless what Canon wants, I don't immediately see this on the highest end of production. Episodic TV yes. Non union and lower tier union features yes. High end corporate/marketing yes. I also expect manufacturers will soon offer built in lens motors ala Panavision Primo 70 lenses. So purpose built, cinema autofocus capable glass- likely made by Canon first for the world at large (Panavision is pretty exclusive after all). I think AC's will turn the autofocus on and off setup by setup, providing it's incredibly accurate and tunable. So not yet- but the beginning of the future standard.
 
Mitch Gross said:
No, but the camera can't do that either. It can only do it by recording in RAW to the Codex recorder. However the Odyssey7Q+ can record in Apple ProRes 422HQ 4K60p from a number of cameras. And yes, using BNC cables.

So, yeah. Asked and answered.
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Thanks Mitch. yeah, curious about the C700 specifically, but should extend that question to the C300Mk2 and C500 too.
 
klk said:
... I also expect manufacturers will soon offer built in lens motors ala Panavision Primo 70 lenses. So purpose built, cinema autofocus capable glass- likely made by Canon first for the world at large (Panavision is pretty exclusive after all). I think AC's will turn the autofocus on and off setup by setup, providing it's incredibly accurate and tunable. So not yet- but the beginning of the future standard.
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The likely steps will be -

1) Sony matching Canon's auto focus with their GM lenses on the next generation's lower tier pro cameras (~ $15,000 price point)

2) That will be followed up by the industry wide initiative to manufacture a universal auto focus capable mount - a "PLAF", if you will. Without it, Canon and Sony - and, at some point, ARRI - will have too much of an edge over their competitors, forcing a new series of alliances between the lens manufacturers and the camera manufacturers. That would lead to the situation similar to the one currently existing in the consumer sector, where the most popular mount (EF) dominates others. And it would also lead to the rather chaotic situation on the set.

Canon and Sony will obviously be against it but, if others join forces, they may have to consent to an open standard too.

PS. IMO, by the time C700 begins to ship in numbers, its price tag will be lowered significantly and its AF version will be popular among the lower budgeted non-union gigs too.
 
DLD said:
PS. IMO, by the time C700 begins to ship in numbers, its price tag will be lowered significantly and its AF version will be popular among the lower budgeted non-union gigs too.
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It would be great to see the body @US$20K (not likely). More than the Varicam LT. Less than the F55 with OLED EVF. But I suspect Canon sees the C700 as "more" appealing than the 4 yr old F55, and a better buy than an Amira.

The grapevine has the Varicam 35 Version 2 coming out shortly, followed by the LT V2. Price will be interesting. Tough place to do business, camera manufacturing.
 
The LT was just released a few months ago! lol

Nonetheless, I hope they start building the settings screen into the LT. No need for that thing hanging on the back.
 
Doctor Wu said:
I believe one of the 3G SDI ports still send out 10 bit 30P raw. With the Codex connection you get 12 bit raw at a higher frame rate. I haven't had my hands on a working model. Will report back when I do.
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Thank you for answering!

Will be interesting to see how this plays out!

I can see how Canon needs to have Codex onboard to play in the big league (for now), but the C700 also needs lots of flexibility without Codex as the vast majority of shoots with the C700 will reject the cost of running with Codex media.
 
klk said:
It would be great to see the body @US$20K (not likely). More than the Varicam LT. Less than the F55 with OLED EVF. But I suspect Canon sees the C700 as "more" appealing than the 4 yr old F55, and a better buy than an Amira...
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I can see that frequently quoted $38,000 package - body + EFV + other accessories - dropping to about $30,000 within a year. A lot will depend on Sony because, even if ARRI announces its *non faux four K" model for the NAB'17, it will want to remain the elite in the $80,000-$100,000 neighborhood. Sony, naturally, wants to cover all angles and their Cine Alta update should squeeze down the pricing for everyone else too.

$30,000 still isn't cheap by the common definition of that word but it might be worth it from the workflow stand-point, given its decent ISO + auto focus features. That 10-bit ProRes image will have to hold up though because, off the speculated specs, one should be able to get the same or better image with a ~ $1,500 consumer GH5.
 
SiSS said:
What mental illness this DLD guy has?
Specsshooter muppet. I bet he don't have a camera at all.
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No idea who DLD is since he doesn't have a signature in his posts. Calling someone mental can be fun or out of irritation, but it would hurt him. I can see that he pours over specs a great deal and really believes that the specs are to be believed. There are many people who simply buy based on announced specs. And there are even more people who never buy but troll based on specs. Sadly that is the reality in today's online forums.

PS: Request eveyone to post atleast links to their profiles in their signature so that others can know what we know or don't know.
 
indiawilds said:
PS: Request everyone to post atleast links to their profiles in their signature so that others can know what we know or don't know.
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And bare in mind we all work in different markets, both geographic and content wise- with wildly varying budgets. One market is not better than the other- just different, and we all have different needs and goals. That said, just did a camera compare matrix and the C700 stacks up very well with the market/ clients I work in. Now just a matter of the camera hitting the streets, testing/shooting with it and gauging client's response.
 
indiawilds said:
No idea who DLD is since he doesn't have a signature in his posts. Calling someone mental can be fun or out of irritation, but it would hurt him. I can see that he pours over specs a great deal and really believes that the specs are to be believed. There are many people who simply buy based on announced specs. And there are even more people who never buy but troll based on specs. Sadly that is the reality in today's online forums.

PS: Request eveyone to post atleast links to their profiles in their signature so that others can know what we know or don't know.
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My background is in writing/performing. Video gear experience comes from working in the consumer electronics field for a long time. And, while I don't rely in specs entirely, there are several (fairly) objective factors such as price and workflow. Image quality, resolution aside, is very subjective. Some people prefer Canon over - let's say - Sony but there's also a huge Sony section here.

PS. I am not Ed Grimley.
 
BTW, the problem with C700, as I see it, is this.

An auto-focus enabled version will only work with (some) Canon AF glass. This makes a lot of sense for the C300 MKII type of shooting but those working with the $40,000+ cameras will usually want something on the higher end.

And, if you exclude the Canon AF lenses, then you can choose among a lot of similar cameras, such as Varicam LT, F5 and Red Scarlet W. Presented with these options, many a shooter will take a lower priced model and invest the difference on those new Angenieux or Zeiss zooms.
 
DLD said:
BTW, the problem with C700, as I see it, is this.
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This camera probably doesn't make sense unless you are a professional, full time dp or owner/op. And then it makes sense if clients request it, or willingly pay a decent kit rental for it. So, as usual, the marketplace will decide.

Professionally this camera makes a lot of sense to me. No plans to buy one unless this become the go to camera the way the C300 did in it's market space. But that's what rental houses are for...
 
klk said:
This camera probably doesn't make sense unless you are a professional, full time dp or owner/op. And then it makes sense if clients request it, or willingly pay a decent kit rental for it. So, as usual, the marketplace will decide.
...
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Indeed. But let's turn the tables a little here. Let's say you are not a cinematographer/DP but a producer and/or director of a major ad or a cable/local/streaming TV show.

Among your choices on the higher end are are F65, F55, Varicam 35/Pure, ARRI Alexa ST/SXT/Mini, ARRI Amira, Red Weapon 6K/8K. On a lower end, you can have F5, Varicam LT, Red Scarlet W, Red Raven, C300 MKII, FS-7. It's getting to be a very crowded field, not even counting whatever Sony has down the pike.

What will make you ask for C700?
 
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