The 7D, 60D, 550D & 600D all have the same 18MP APS-C sensor. The best value Canon crop sensor DSLR today is the T3i/600D. It has the articulated screen, manual audio levels & the very cool 3X crop mode zoom.
Canon 8D
- Thread starter Ferdi Willemse
- Start date
wgzn
Veteran
the whole canon line just confuses the living crap out of me. its like they intentionally and fundamentally cripple each model in one way or another.
the t2i was great, but didnt have the articulating screen
the 60d has articulating screen but doesnt monitor in hd
the 7d monitors in hd (one of only 2 canon models that do so) but doesnt have an articulating screen
seems to me, they could have simplified things and offered a semi-pro and pro model by doing the following:
(semi-pro) rolling the t2i, t3i and 60d efforts into one model.
(pro) adding an articulating screen to the 7D for a couple hundred bucks added to the price tag.
the t2i was great, but didnt have the articulating screen
the 60d has articulating screen but doesnt monitor in hd
the 7d monitors in hd (one of only 2 canon models that do so) but doesnt have an articulating screen
seems to me, they could have simplified things and offered a semi-pro and pro model by doing the following:
(semi-pro) rolling the t2i, t3i and 60d efforts into one model.
(pro) adding an articulating screen to the 7D for a couple hundred bucks added to the price tag.
steventimothy
Well-known member
Canon still basically doesn't give a sh** about video, (OK, they give a small sh**), they're just rolling out iterative new models to suit their photo-taking clientele. They need to have different price points to suit different customer's budgets, hence all the different models.
wgzn
Veteran
id understand if the t2i, t3i, 60d were huge price differences. but there are within a couple hundred bucks of each other and neither is significantly better an the other.
apple got into this kinda mess back in the early 1990s with their various levels of performa, centris, quadra lines. it ended up almost killing them financially.
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
Ok, yes, their naming system is confusing. But its quite simple if you follow the history of their releases.
Canon basically has 5 DSLR product lines currently, priced for different demographics and released at varying frequencies. Here is their strategy as I view it (I could be wrong about any or all of this, this is based on my observing the market):
The pro series from Canon is named with a single digit proceeding a D.
There's the 1D series, the most expensive of the group, which was introduced in 2001 and updated 3 times since then (currently on Mark IV). We don't discuss this camera much because for video purposes it is generally not worth the price tag versus other offerings. However this camera sports dual Digic chips and a weatherproof body.
Then there's the 5D, released originally in 2005, updated twice since then (up to the Mark II now). Less expensive and less rugged than the 1D, sports only one Digic chip, but offers the full frame sized sensor.
Then there's the 7D, which was released in 2009. This was more ruggedized and sports dual chips (like the 1D), but offered the smaller and more consumer-sized APS-C sensor, thus making it a bit smaller in body and apparently cheaper than the previous 2 offerings. An update to this is expected soon.
Note that none of these are an update to the other- so far, they are three distinct camera lines that are geared towards totally different demographics. They compliment each other and are used for different purposes. Also, note that when new editions come out, they don't increment the number, but rather add "Mark x" to the name to identify which model. I would guess that like the other single-digit offerings from Canon, the 7D's replacement will be the 7D Mark II, and NOT the 8D (making the title of this thread a misnomer).
The consumer lines don't follow these rules, however:
There are 2 lines in the consumer oriented editions. The higher end is the double-digit D line, starting with the 10D in 2003, following all the way up to the 60D we have now. They have incremented the number by 10 with each update.
Then, on the low end is the Rebel line, either numbered in triple-digit Ds, or other names depending on region (XT, Ti, T2i, KISS, etc). The lower end models leave out certain features (aperture wheel, etc) and a smaller body, but otherwise quite similar in functionality.
Now here's the thing- these cameras are all updated at different frequencies. The consumer editions are updated more often, I'm guessing because marketing dictates that consumers update their equipment more often and want something to upgrade to, whereas 1D owners tend to invest and hold onto it for longer (just a guess? I'm sure there's a marketing concept in there somewhere).
That means that new features (manual audio controls, articulating screen, etc) might actually appear there first, until the higher end models catch up with a new edition. I'm fairly certain the next 7D, 5D, and 70D (replacing the 60d) will have the 3x crop zoom, articulating screen and manual audio controls. And probably some new stuff that the consumer models will have to wait to trickle down for (Digic V anyone??).
These features are not meant to be selling points for one versus the other, but rather series-wide features. Whether or not a model comes with it has to do with when it was released (as in, was it before or after Canon decided it should be included), not what price point or demographic the camera is aimed at.
At least, that's my opinion.
On some 7D's, such as my own, that's like saying "this camera is great, except for the fact that it got ran over by a truck". I live in Florida, and my Panasonic HPX-170 can still on sticks all day in the sun and be fine. My 7D can't take more than 5 minutes int he shade. Anyone in a cold climate want to buy a gently used 7D?
How much?
hearing ya
hearing ya
But we are avoiding the white elephant in the room, the sound, while the on onboard mic gives you the basic pickup, you are going to need an external recorder to get quality sound. The onboard mic will you a good reference sound, the laying in of a track from a zoom h4n, h1n, or what ever will give you an increase in quality.
You can even input the sound on the 60D, t2i, 600D, t3i, via a Sescam cable which will replace the Canon sound.
all this, but not on th7D
hearing ya
But we are avoiding the white elephant in the room, the sound, while the on onboard mic gives you the basic pickup, you are going to need an external recorder to get quality sound. The onboard mic will you a good reference sound, the laying in of a track from a zoom h4n, h1n, or what ever will give you an increase in quality.
You can even input the sound on the 60D, t2i, 600D, t3i, via a Sescam cable which will replace the Canon sound.
all this, but not on th7D
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
Yes, the 5D will likely get an update first. But that 7D being "by far the best" line is your opinion. An opinion, I might add, that many on this board (myself included) would argue with.
In fact, unless you shoot with an external monitor and need live HD while shooting, I can't think of many reasons the 7D would be worth it, IMO.
::scratches head::
Why isn't this possible on a 7D?
Lot of weird information in this thread tonight!
Meanwhile, on-board sound suffers from weak preamps and sometimes from AGC (in the case of the t2i). But feeding in a pre-amplified signal and using Magic Lantern to disable all camera amplification, I actually don't find the need to use a separate recorder for most of my projects. In fact, I shot an interview for network broadcast (CBS) a few weeks ago using a Senheisser wireless lav directly into a T2i with Magic Lantern. Doesn't anyone read the stickies on this forum??
deltoidjohn
Veteran
You left out a couple of camera lines here, as well a few other little mistakes:
First, the 1Ds line: quite distinct from the 1D line, which has a smaller APS-H sensor (1.3x crop), it is the 1DsmkIII which loans it's full frame sensor to the 5DmkII. The 1Ds line does not have a video mode though (yet), and with all the other camera lines having been updated, it is the 1Ds which would most realistically be updated next, assuming all Canon pro-line models share the same approximate 3-year product cycle (as they have historically).
Speaking of product cycles, the 5D has only been udpated once (the 5d mkII), in 2008, not twice as you said. 2005 to 2008 = 3 years.
The other line you missed is the Low-end Rebels, the T3/1100D. This line is Canon's cheapest and, while they shoot video, they lack manual control and I believe they shoot only 720p30 with no 1080p or 50/60p.
I also believe it's worth mentioning that the xxD line recently made a transition from semi-pro to consumer, both in terms of price point and features. It used to be their top-of-the-line APS-C camera, with fast fps and shooting to CF cards - an excellent backup for the pro's or good choice for somebody who could not afford the full frame offerings. Then the 7D was released, knocking the 50D off it's pedestal atop the APS-C line. In response the 60D was released at a lower price point, with a slower fps and shooting to SD cards in a more consumer-orientated package (hence the articulating screen).
Regarding why some cameras have particular features and others don't, I believe there are 3 forces at play:
1) Some cameras have not yet been updated to include features that were released more recently
2) Some features were intentionally included on cheaper models, because consumers are more likely to be impressed by gimmicky features, while other features were left out of higher end models in order satisfy purist photographers who see any video features a waste of space.
So, while some features will eventually find their way to all the camera lines which shoot video, I think some might not be shared. For example, I would not expect the 1D/1Ds, 5D or 7D lines to ever include an articulating LCD. It's just not something many pro photographers want - many even get angry at their inclusion - just like many pro videographers hate touchsceens on camcorders. Similarly, It would not surprise me if the 1Ds line never even recieved a video mode. Realistically there is nothing that camera could offer for video purposes that the 5D series (which has the same sensor/processor) could not also offer at a lower price point, so Canon might save the flagship 1Ds for the photography purists (the 1D, on the other hand, does have something extra to offer for video because it has an exceptionally sensitive 12mp CMOS not found in any other Canon Camera).
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deltoidjohn
Veteran
I can think of a few reasons why I would not want to shoot with an external HD monitor:
Because it's an added expense. Because it's an extra piece of gear to setup. Becuase it would be useless to me in bright sunlight. Because it wouldn't balance on my Steadycam. Because I use Magic Lantern's "Magic Zoom and already nail my focus everytime. Because would be far less inconspicuous at those times I want to remain un-noticed. Because it's another set of batteries to remember to recharge.
And because I'd have to pay twice as much to get a camera that allows me to do it.
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
+1
I use an external monitor on very specific rare occasions, and when I do I really don't require it to be HD (more for framing, so the talent can make sure to stay within boundaries, etc). The LCD is quite good, especially if using a loupe outdoors, and Magic Lantern's focus tools are excellent (especially the zoom box as mentioned). In fact, the lack of Magic Lantern alone is reason enough for me to prefer avoiding the 7D if I can.
That's not to say there aren't times a 7D would be appropriate- for example, if shooting with a crew that includes a dedicated focus puller, that guy will want to see his own live HD monitor to pull accurate focus. But most of us are here shooting with very limited manpower, if not completely alone. Using weighted stabilizers, portable rigs, sliders, sometimes even hand-held. Using an external monitor is just not always useful, and sometimes quite the opposite. But everyone has their style of shooting. For me, I've shot pieces for network broadcast with nothing more than my camera and a good lens attached to it.
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
I was trying to focus on DSLRs that are used to shoot HD in order to stay relevant to the question asked. But yes, thank you for catching my omissions and mistakes- there's a lot of info there and I wrote it very quickly!
Yes, I noticed that as well. The 50 had microadjustment for lens focus, and the 60D did not, which was weird. I didn't think of it as being demoted from semi-pro to consumer until you said that. I guess the 7D was created as a cheaper alternative to the 1D, which its dual chips and weatherproofing, and suddenly the xxD series seemed redundant? Interesting.
Number 1 is really what I was getting at. I'm not sure I agree with number 2- I wouldn't be surprised if the 7D got an articulating display on the Mark II. Considering how popular that line has become for shooting video as a pro-sumer cam, I think its totally on their roadmap. The 7D (and to a certain degree the 5D) have become more consumery than you may realize. They can be found on display in stores like Costco or internet ads for auction sites. The 1D, however, seems to be reserved for photography purists. You never see a 1D on store display or in a sales flyer. If they really plan to leave that feature out, maybe I could see it happening to that series only. We'll find out soon enough!
journalist
Active member
May I comment to this topic.
As a journalist, I am really missing a good combo of both still & video. On repporting assignments I produce both medias. For stills I have good old Mark II N and for videos I could use my HVX 200 or 170, but just can't carry all this stuff along. Instead I'll use Mark II N plus a little Panasonic AGHSC1UE, which gives very good videoquality (sound & video, 3,5 mm plug). It has articulated screen, which is a necessity for interviews (to be able to locato yourself to the screen), reliable focus and wide dept of field.
Just wanted to remind, that not everybody need narrow dept of field only. I do like it, but only for special effect. It really seems nearly impossible to have a good compination of both worlds in one camera! Not to mention CMOS problems. Pana's 200 & 170 shine there also.
Conclusion - I still have to carry both camera's on most of the asignments.
As a journalist, I am really missing a good combo of both still & video. On repporting assignments I produce both medias. For stills I have good old Mark II N and for videos I could use my HVX 200 or 170, but just can't carry all this stuff along. Instead I'll use Mark II N plus a little Panasonic AGHSC1UE, which gives very good videoquality (sound & video, 3,5 mm plug). It has articulated screen, which is a necessity for interviews (to be able to locato yourself to the screen), reliable focus and wide dept of field.
Just wanted to remind, that not everybody need narrow dept of field only. I do like it, but only for special effect. It really seems nearly impossible to have a good compination of both worlds in one camera! Not to mention CMOS problems. Pana's 200 & 170 shine there also.
Conclusion - I still have to carry both camera's on most of the asignments.
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
While DSLR's are famous for their shallow DOF, won't upping the aperture on your lens give the same DOF as shooting on your camcorder? The way I understand it, the benefit of shooting with DSLR is that you *CAN* go with a lower aperture by choosing a faster lens if you need it, but you're not stuck there.
I very often up the F/stop if shooting something I can't afford to have any focus blur with (chroma-key or dolly shot, etc).
Maybe I'm missing the point here, but it sounds to me like someone complaining about a sports car because your speed limit is only 55mph. Just don't go that fast if you don't need to, right?
The CMOS stuff can be a concern if you can't work around it, but if you're positioning a camera on a tripod, I don't see what the issue is. Most of my work is interview style, I can attest to it working perfectly.
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journalist
Active member
Hi
I quess the DOF question can in a degree be worked over as you said. I only have limited experience with DSLR's - have tested a little with my daughters D550. Missing of articulated LCD was maybe the biggest minus.
By a way, I made interesting note. Recorded a clip with sound (external mic). When importing to Premier the sound was perfect, but importing to EDIUS 6, there was very annoying whizzle in background! Odd.
I quess the DOF question can in a degree be worked over as you said. I only have limited experience with DSLR's - have tested a little with my daughters D550. Missing of articulated LCD was maybe the biggest minus.
By a way, I made interesting note. Recorded a clip with sound (external mic). When importing to Premier the sound was perfect, but importing to EDIUS 6, there was very annoying whizzle in background! Odd.
steventimothy
Well-known member
I just realized something... I wouldn't hold my breath on some fantastic new video tech from a new 5D or 7D. Here's why:
1) Vincent LaForet has NDA access to the latest tech & cameras from Canon that the public has not seen
2) He just bought a $75,000 Red Epic M.
If he thought more of where Canon was going, he might not have done that... or maybe I'm full of it.
1) Vincent LaForet has NDA access to the latest tech & cameras from Canon that the public has not seen
2) He just bought a $75,000 Red Epic M.
If he thought more of where Canon was going, he might not have done that... or maybe I'm full of it.