C500: C500 II Streaking

A

Airwolf

Active member
Okay, so I bought a C500 II expecting it to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, and for $15,000, frankly I don't think I'm in the wrong for expecting that. I used a C100 for many years, loved everything about it, upgraded to a Sony FS5, didn't like a lot of things about that which I missed from the Canon, so stepping up into the next price range going with the 500 Mark II seemed sensible and a sure winner based on what I saw.

After shooting some footage, my main issue and what I believe is an inexcusable flaw with this camera is streaking in the shadows. And I'm not just talking about taking an underexposed image and trying to bring it up in post, I mean you take a properly exposed subject with dark around it, and in those dark areas I see horizontal streaking on the sensor, and I see horizontal streaking on nearly every image with shadow areas. It's difficult to see in a still frame, and vimeo or youtube would probably compress it out of the image, so I've pushed around a few frames, one from my FS5 (taken out of the raw output into my Shogun Inferno into ProRes 422), and two from the C500 Mark II, XAVC and Canon Raw Light.

I have pushed both these images to the extreme, far more than would ever be done, but that is to show the streaking on the sensor that is present when you watch back the footage live, even with a normal grade while difficult to see, is there. And you can almost see the noise move in those horizontal lines when it's playing, similar to VHS tape distortion.

I don't think I'm crazy, because the FS5 while noisy, is clean. And the C500 has multiple horizontal streaks. I've asked to return the camera and have been denied, but I believe Canon truly produced a lemon here.

XAVC
streaking.jpg

RAW
canonraw.jpg

FS5
FS5.jpg
 
It's called 'fixed pattern noise' [FPN] and it's relatively common in some cameras. (Although it's usually vertical, but times have changed as cameras have become more complicated.)

Horizontal lines - 100% like these - were common in the UM4K. Blackmagic made the term known to most of the universe with their first camera before the UM.

No one can tell you why this happens besides camera engineers, but rest-assured you're not the first and not the last to see it in their brand new camera.

___

P.S. Try a black balance if you haven't. Also, try testing a baked profile. It's likely the lines won't be visible in one as they are usually present in a LOG when companies try to squeeze out every bit of DR they can.
 
Let's just be glad it's streaking in the shadows because no on wants to see that in broad daylight.

See if you can see the same issues in other footage from the C500 Mark II. The first C300 Mark II I got, right when they came out, the sensor was faulty. Had TV style lines throughout the footage. Returned the camera and got a replacement. C300 Mark II faulty sensor frame grab...



C300-Mark-II-Frame-Grab-1.png



I recall when I first saw it on the small camera LCD screen I thought, "Man, this camera doesn't look that great." Then I later brought the footage into a computer and realized it was a sensor issue.
 
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Is that for real? Or is that the FCP X line screen filter? Those lines look too perfect, ha.
 
If you're referring to my post, yeah, that's real, straight from camera. An untouched screen shot from VLC player or Premiere.
 
Airwolf said:
Okay, so I bought a C500 II expecting it to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, and for $15,000, frankly I don't think I'm in the wrong for expecting that. I used a C100 for many years, loved everything about it, upgraded to a Sony FS5, didn't like a lot of things about that which I missed from the Canon, so stepping up into the next price range going with the 500 Mark II seemed sensible and a sure winner based on what I saw.

After shooting some footage, my main issue and what I believe is an inexcusable flaw with this camera is streaking in the shadows. And I'm not just talking about taking an underexposed image and trying to bring it up in post, I mean you take a properly exposed subject with dark around it, and in those dark areas I see horizontal streaking on the sensor, and I see horizontal streaking on nearly every image with shadow areas. It's difficult to see in a still frame, and vimeo or youtube would probably compress it out of the image, so I've pushed around a few frames, one from my FS5 (taken out of the raw output into my Shogun Inferno into ProRes 422), and two from the C500 Mark II, XAVC and Canon Raw Light.

I have pushed both these images to the extreme, far more than would ever be done, but that is to show the streaking on the sensor that is present when you watch back the footage live, even with a normal grade while difficult to see, is there. And you can almost see the noise move in those horizontal lines when it's playing, similar to VHS tape distortion.

I don't think I'm crazy, because the FS5 while noisy, is clean. And the C500 has multiple horizontal streaks. I've asked to return the camera and have been denied, but I believe Canon truly produced a lemon here.
Click to expand...

First thought is that what we’re seeing here is cmos smear, something that affects all cmos sensors, although some, like canon, and red have been known to show it more than others. Those streaks aren’t aligning with anything we can see, and so that diagnosis is suspect. If we could see the original image, pre-being “pushed around” it might help us get some consensus around what’s happening. Matt Porwoll, in his review, declared that the camera had fixed this issue. In several scenes I’ve shot with the c500II that should have caused it, it’s been nowhere to be seen.

I’m a little suspicious of the methodology here..to be honest, (go looking for something and you will find it.) Do you feel like this issue is going to just be there in the majority of things you shoot...? While I have seen it pop up in c300ii shots, it was hardly ever an issue, and always fixable with a change in iso, exposure, or by adding some light to the scene. Not being critical in saying that... only want to get at the truth of this camera.
 
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Wow Eric! That's crazy.

Airwolf, I see what you are seeing. However, it appears that you are pushing the images in ways that you probably would never use in real life, aren't you?
It appears to be a FPN/sensor noise issue, I don't know if it's normal or you have a defective camera but it would be helpful if you posted some correctly
exposed/post processed images to see if we can see this same effect in footage we would actually use?

I'm on the list to receive a review C500 MKII from Canon USA so when I get it, I'll run some tests too and will compare it to my C200 FPN.

On a side note, I attended the world premiere of a documentary that I mainly shot on the C100 MKI (I shot a few pieces toward the end on the C200)
last night at the Santa Barbara International Film Festival. I was able to see my C100 MKI footage, after a good grade and CC, projected from the DCP
and it looked REALLY good. It still makes me even more skeptical of the pointless resolution and sensor size "arms war" we've been in for years now.
Good old 1080 Ninja Blade Prores 422 out of the C100 MKI, with good lighting looked really excellent on the big screen,
I received multiple compliments from audience members during the filmmaker Q&A about how good the film looked. But we all
have to be shooting 6K FF to make good images now, right? ;-)
 
Okay - Some properly exposed, graded and ungraded images. If I need to host these elsewhere I can do. It looks worse on video. I'll try to cut together some 4k examples to upload to vimeo, but my upload speed is not the greatest at home. I shot these this morning, and did an ABB before shooting.

This is at 800 ISO, Clog3, in 6k Raw. Downrezed to 4k. The only thing I did here is apply the Canon Rec709 Lut. If you look at my shirt above the red lettering you'll see alternating horizontal lines of black.
streakingmornal.jpg

Here is the same frame in 6k (cropped 1:1), pushed around a lot so you can see the lines clearly. There's a much more pronounced purple noise pattern which matches the alternating shades of black in the normal frame.
PushedFrame.jpg

Here is that same frame with nothing done to it at all, straight raw cropped down 1:1 in 4k.
rawoutput.jpg

Offsite hosted JPEGs:
LUT - https://i.imgur.com/x9vya2V.jpg

Extreme Push - https://i.imgur.com/bggRhyU.jpg

Raw - https://i.imgur.com/PO3ee0e.jpg
 
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Even the "normal" image looks noisy and soft to me. But uploaded still images on this site look like crap. I've uploaded frame grabs that were so sharp they looked almost 3D and then when viewed on here in the forum they looked like noisy mush.
 
It's a sensor problem. Unfortunately, there's really nothing else to say. Sometimes it's permanent (hardware), sometimes it's remedied with a FW update.

Could be one in a million or could be prevalent in more cameras as units make their way around the world.

Not every camera is created equally even with excellent QC.
 
Jaime Valles said:
Yeah, that sucks. If I were you, I would talk to Canon and see if they could swap out the camera. That's not good.
Click to expand...

Or better yet, whomever he bought it from. If he got it from a big vendor, they should have some pull. When I had an issue with one of my P2 VariCam's right after receiving it, I called my rep and my cameras was shipped to Panasonic and the head engineer here in the US was personally checking the camera and calling me. I doubt I would have received the same level of attention if I had had to navigate it on my own. Of course, if this is a problem with this specific camera(or worse than other copies), they should just be swapping it out with a brand new one.
 
I'd bought my faulty camera from B&H and when I showed them the images they sent me a new camera with express shipping in the mail before I'd even sent the faulty one back, if I recall rightly.

As Run&Gun said, contact who you bought it from and they should be able to get you a replacement.
 
puredrifting said:
Wow Eric! That's crazy.

Airwolf, I see what you are seeing. However, it appears that you are pushing the images in ways that you probably would never use in real life, aren't you?
It appears to be a FPN/sensor noise issue, I don't know if it's normal or you have a defective camera but it would be helpful if you posted some correctly
exposed/post processed images to see if we can see this same effect in footage we would actually use?

I'm on the list to receive a review C500 MKII from Canon USA so when I get it, I'll run some tests too and will compare it to my C200 FPN.

On a side note, I attended the world premiere of a documentary that I mainly shot on the C100 MKI (I shot a few pieces toward the end on the C200)
last night at the Santa Barbara International Film Festival. I was able to see my C100 MKI footage, after a good grade and CC, projected from the DCP
and it looked REALLY good. It still makes me even more skeptical of the pointless resolution and sensor size "arms war" we've been in for years now.
Good old 1080 Ninja Blade Prores 422 out of the C100 MKI, with good lighting looked really excellent on the big screen,
I received multiple compliments from audience members during the filmmaker Q&A about how good the film looked. But we all
have to be shooting 6K FF to make good images now, right? ;-)
Click to expand...
+1 Dan. I recently saw a C100 MKI doc of mine on a DCP in a theater and it looked AWESOME. Proves even with 8 bit you can make a beautiful image...
 
I think these artifacts are whatever Canon is doing to reduce CMOS smear. On the C300 MKII, the same image would be much worse although the pattern would be a bit different.
 
Airwolf said:
Okay - Some properly exposed, graded and ungraded images. If I need to host these elsewhere I can do. It looks worse on video. I'll try to cut together some 4k examples to upload to vimeo, but my upload speed is not the greatest at home. I shot these this morning, and did an ABB before shooting.

This is at 800 ISO, Clog3, in 6k Raw. Downrezed to 4k. The only thing I did here is apply the Canon Rec709 Lut. If you look at my shirt above the red lettering you'll see alternating horizontal lines of black.
View attachment 138009

Here is the same frame in 6k (cropped 1:1), pushed around a lot so you can see the lines clearly. There's a much more pronounced purple noise pattern which matches the alternating shades of black in the normal frame.
View attachment 138010

Here is that same frame with nothing done to it at all, straight raw cropped down 1:1 in 4k.
View attachment 138011

Offsite hosted JPEGs:
LUT - https://i.imgur.com/x9vya2V.jpg

Extreme Push - https://i.imgur.com/bggRhyU.jpg

Raw - https://i.imgur.com/PO3ee0e.jpg
Click to expand...

Not sure what to say. I'm looking at your images and seeing way more noise than anything I see at ISO 800 with a LUT applied off this camera in FF. I tried pushing a similar image of mine severely and I don't see any streaking at all in the shadows.
 
Sound advice here. If that was my shiny new camera, I would exchange it. If the vendor won't exchange it, it would go back to Canon with instructions to "make it right". That would mean repair it or replace it.
 
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