C200: C200 vs C500 Image Quality

An official Canon fan firmware update was released, but it only essentially enabled you to turn the fan off for some time and then it would kick in when the camera was getting warm and then turn off a few minutes later and then back on, etc...until it would stay on if you were recording for an extended period of time.

The C500 was/is pretty awesome but I've never seen one clip highlights so harshly besides the URSA 4K. I think both were rated at 12 (BM definitely was), but most likely less in practice.
 
The fan on the C500 can only be silenced when shooting 4K or 2K by using one of these computer cooling fan external customs made units, you are good with the fan turning off without the custom made unit for about 7-12 minuets but it will turn back on to cool the camera! I only use the cooling unit when I'm recording interviews and have not had the fan kick back on when using the device. It's amazing you can get the C500 used for as little as $3,400. of course you do need an external recorder but these can be had for about $1,500. used. I'm still very happy with my C500 purchase from a year ago.
 
DLD said:
I suppose "I had a couple" is a hint that you no longer have even one but the fan noise issue was addressed in a different thread, where a third party mod did the trick (that "third party" was one of the DVXUsers).

And 7Q can do Raw-to-ProRes, though it may not have been able to do that at the beginning.
Click to expand...

Yes, C500 long gone. It took Canon a long time to update firmware to control the fan- was already boned several times with fan noise before the firmware update. It also took a long time for CD to release Raw to ProRes. On the 12v computer fan "fix"- you could probably make a sexy 3D printed fan mount, but there are so many damn cameras out there- not to mention so many dp's seeking work- why bother? The last thing an established producer wants to see is THAT fix- just scream UNRELIABLE. What's the producer's big worry with dp's? That they get screwed by the dp taking too long- cost overruns- overtime. A competent dp is simply assumed- personal interaction and speed are the wildcards if it is a new relationship. You can do a fan fix- on the day- as an emergency- but to show up on the job with a hack fan- that is asking to be replaced immediately. Job retention is hard enough-

If you are doing an indie production then yes, the fan fix works- who cares what it looks like?

I recorded 2K Prores out of C500 to O7Q and there was more than 1 stop of additional dynamic range- in the highlights. Much better than in camera recording.

Eric- check this link: http://www.leitax.com/conversion/Cine/Alexa/index.html
I have not seen it in person, but it does look promising. And cheap!
 
B.Berry said:
The fan on the C500 can only be silenced when shooting 4K or 2K by using one of these computer cooling fan external customs made units, you are good with the fan turning off without the custom made unit for about 7-12 minuets but it will turn back on to cool the camera! I only use the cooling unit when I'm recording interviews and have not had the fan kick back on when using the device. It's amazing you can get the C500 used for as little as $3,400. of course you do need an external recorder but these can be had for about $1,500. used. I'm still very happy with my C500 purchase from a year ago.
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Oh yeah - at full price when released with no fan fix and little recorder support this camera was destined to fail. Now that the prices have been slashed like crazy and Convergent Design got Canon raw to ProRes working for 30p and under, this is a no brainer for under $10k out the door for camera and recorder.
We jumped on that boat around a year ago as well and it's really upped our game.
 
I'm really glad I bought mine. I was little upset and almost returned the C500 before finding the external fan solution, it really gets too loud when recording longer interviews in 2K or 4K This fan solution worked a charm I bought the last remaining parts from AbleCine just like the system pictured bellow only mine runs off a D tap. Easy on and off.

http://mattporwoll.com/problems-solved/
 
Back in 2014'ish or so, Michael Cioni of Light Iron made a music video with C500+ Ki Pro Quad + Movi gimbal. According to him, it was then one of the best bangs for the buck - a 4K rig for under $30,000. Light Iron provided a mobile post cart (the company since then has been acquired by Panavision). I hear prices have come down.
 
klk said:
Yes, C500 long gone. It took Canon a long time to update firmware to control the fan- was already boned several times with fan noise before the firmware update. It also took a long time for CD to release Raw to ProRes.
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Grapevine is that CD prioritised Sony over Canon and took way too long to provide firmware updates for C500 even though they were quick with Sony FS700. That was one of the reasons for Canon just going upwards and using Codex for C700 and then kicking out the dependence of external recorders like CD in the lower end by bringing in RawLite. Since it is grapevine take it with a pinch of salt.
 
That grapevine is probably true as there would be no point supporting a camera that no one was buying before the Sony which was flying off the shelf at the time.
 
It made total sense for CD, since F-700R was $8,000 and C500 was $25,000, then $20,000. Besides, they had delays with Apple on their ProRes deliveries too.

PS. Side note - the external recorder market may have seen its better days. The prices are falling, the competitor list is growing and the new card formats make the internal 4K high FPS Raw recording a (relatively) affordable option.
 
B.Berry said:
I'm really glad I bought mine. I was little upset and almost returned the C500 before finding the external fan solution, it really gets too loud when recording longer interviews in 2K or 4K This fan solution worked a charm I bought the last remaining parts from AbleCine just like the system pictured bellow only mine runs off a D tap. Easy on and off.

I definitely prefer the image of the C500 to the C300 MK ii and the C500 in 2k 12bit or 4k 10 bit CD ProRes blows aways the internal C500/C300mkI/C100 cameras. The C300 mk ii has a magenta tone when compared to the C500. Both are excellent just a preference for me.

I have built similar looking solutions for multiple C500 users... I have been using my C500 with my fan modification for over a year and have yet to have the Fans turn on during long interviews using my fan solution... now thermodynamics would say that there is a limit... Canon's white paper says the fans turn on when the internal temperature reaches 77 degrees... I have been able to achieve long record times during tests at 86 degrees... All my work and interviews happen in temperature controlled environments that are in the low 70s, so no issue with the fans... you can see my blog and images of one of my units here.

http://www.pulsecinema.com/canon-c500-fan-noise-solution-external-fan-unit/

Also my CD 7Q+ has been working great these days with the Pro Model hard drives. I really love the 7Q+ false colors and focus zoom. I bring it along and use it as monitor with other cameras... I used it on a shoot with the Arri Amira earlier this year, because I just like to set my false colors... we also had a Flanders... which are great!

I do sell the fan units on eBay also, but most people just contact me directly and I discount the price a bit.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Canon-C500...191008?hash=item41cbcea220:g:UpEAAOSw32lYrK2o

Best Regards,

Chris McGuinness
www.pulsecinema.com
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Ok, so I spent almost all day finally running some tests with my C500 + Odyssey 7q vs. my C200 and my main takeaways are:

-I no longer trust Cinema Raw Development
-Apparently I'm not good at doing side by side camera tests
-It's hard to match skin tones between these two cameras

Below are two color corrected frames:
Frame #1 is C200 shot in raw
Frame #2 is C500 shot in raw

There's really no point in pixel peeping these two images because I didn't bother tweaking sharpness, etc., but wanted to post this to show what has been pretty indicative of the difference in skin tones in all of my tests today between the two cameras. It's like there is a greenish/yellow tint on the skin tones on the C500, but if you look at the furniture blanket or the background, you'll see that the C500 image is actually cooler.

If anyone would like to download 2 seconds of each clip that was processed through Cinema Raw Development completely untouched & exported to Prores 4444 and want to take a crack at getting them to match have at it (C500 is in Canon Log, C200 is in Canon Log-2): https://app.frame.io/d/28779038-9aa4-4b94-a638-35326dc70d76





c200.png

C500.png
 
chris f said:
Ok, so I spent almost all day finally running some tests with my C500 + Odyssey 7q vs. my C200 and my main takeaways are:

-I no longer trust Cinema Raw Development
-Apparently I'm not good at doing side by side camera tests
-It's hard to match skin tones between these two cameras
Click to expand...

Hey Chris,

Thank you for this test! I think the C200 looks more like the C300 MK ii. Their is a magenta tone to both those cameras. The C500 does have a greenish tone over all... I noticed what looked like parallel bands in the noise in your C200 footage. Based on this, in my humble opinion in RAW the grain and overall look of the C500 is more pleasing and filmic than the C200 or C300 MK II. The RAW stills you up on line look CC'ed and I think both look nice, I prefer the C500.

I pair my C500 with a Canon 1Dc. The 1Dc is likely my favorite camera ever for all around versatility... It has it's flaws for sure 8 bit. But I love shooting B-Roll in a neutral profile with it. I still hope they release a 1Dc MK II with 10bit 4k... I can wish, LOL

Thank you for this... It is what I expected... I think the C200 would match the C300 MK II perfectly.

Best Regards,

Chris
 
Hi Chris, I took a look in Davinci at your files, and it looks to me like the color temperature is off on the C500 and also that you have crushed your blacks on both shots in your color correction. Otherwise I think you have done a pretty good job.
That said, I think the C200 definitely produces a cleaner, more nuanced image than it's older sibling. I suspect that doing a black shading calibration might also help both cameras, though I don't know if that is possible with the C500.
 
chris f said:
Ok, so I spent almost all day finally running some tests with my C500 + Odyssey 7q vs. my C200 and my main takeaways are:

-I no longer trust Cinema Raw Development
-Apparently I'm not good at doing side by side camera tests
-It's hard to match skin tones between these two cameras

Below are two color corrected frames:
Frame #1 is C200 shot in raw
Frame #2 is C500 shot in raw

There's really no point in pixel peeping these two images because I didn't bother tweaking sharpness, etc., but wanted to post this to show what has been pretty indicative of the difference in skin tones in all of my tests today between the two cameras. It's like there is a greenish/yellow tint on the skin tones on the C500, but if you look at the furniture blanket or the background, you'll see that the C500 image is actually cooler.

If anyone would like to download 2 seconds of each clip that was processed through Cinema Raw Development completely untouched & exported to Prores 4444 and want to take a crack at getting them to match have at it (C500 is in Canon Log, C200 is in Canon Log-2): https://app.frame.io/d/28779038-9aa4-4b94-a638-35326dc70d76
Click to expand...

Thanks for this. I much prefer the C200 skin tones. Nice separation of red hues on the subject's face and neckline, and the color is more neutral.
 
After quickly grading the Prores files, (in my opinion) both cameras are pretty comparable.
The only differences between cameras I'm seeing are related to dynamic range and detail/compression.
The C200 has more dynamic range, you'll see it in her necklace. The pendant retains color in the highlight area. High frequency detail is slightly mushier.
The C500 is capturing a little more detail, due to less compression. There's sharper micro-detail in her eyes, hair & lips; along with better noise characteristics in the the black/dark areas.

Graded stills attached:
C200
C200__.jpg
C500
C500__.jpg
 
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Nice job matching them Film Scientist.
I too noticed that the C500 image was slightly sharper, but we don't know what the settings in the cameras were for this or if it was a one off in terms of focus, etc.
I still feel that the contrast is higher on the C500 (which I don't feel is a good thing) and that there is some complimentary color cross over in that image, as if it wasn't seeing color temperature in the same way.
My overall impression is that I continue to like the look coming from the C200 because of it's evenness across the board in terms of tonality and dynamic range. It really does feel like a next generation product to me.
 
markfpv said:
Chris - am curious - what was the light source(s) used in your test above?
Click to expand...

The light source was the modeling lamp on my friends photo strobe - no clue what the color temp or quality of the bulb was. There was also probably a very tiny amount of daylight spill coming in from down the hallway.

Not the most scientific test, but just wanted to get a general idea of how closely they matched out of the camera and to compare their tendencies.

*Also the C200 sharpness was set to 0 and I did not change it in Cinema Raw Development.

Maybe it's because I'm used to my C500, but I actually like the greenish/yellow tint on the skin tones better than what feels like a heavy handed magenta tone of the C200. I don't know what it is, but magenta always feels unnatural to me.
 
chris f said:
The light source was the modeling lamp on my friends photo strobe - no clue what the color temp or quality of the bulb was. There was also probably a very tiny amount of daylight spill coming in from down the hallway.

Not the most scientific test, but just wanted to get a general idea of how closely they matched out of the camera and to compare their tendencies.

*Also the C200 sharpness was set to 0 and I did not change it in Cinema Raw Development.

Maybe it's because I'm used to my C500, but I actually like the greenish/yellow tint on the skin tones better than what feels like a heavy handed magenta tone of the C200. I don't know what it is, but magenta always feels unnatural to me.
Click to expand...

What kind of monitor are you looking at these images on? I see the bottom image as having a bit more magenta, especially in the blacks you can see a subtle colour cast.
 
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