C200: C200 vs C500 Image Quality

J

jaredcgray

New member
Has anybody used both cameras and can comment on if the C200 is comparable IQ wise to the C500?

Theres a certain magic to my C500, especially with skin tones, that I haven't quite seen with any of the C200 test footage floating around. I'm thinking of upgrading, or downgrading or... sidegrading?
 
jaredcgray said:
Has anybody used both cameras and can comment on if the C200 is comparable IQ wise to the C500?

Theres a certain magic to my C500, especially with skin tones, that I haven't quite seen with any of the C200 test footage floating around. I'm thinking of upgrading, or downgrading or... sidegrading?
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Our production company has a C500 a-cam which I have shot on quite a bit. We really love this camera, but that shouldn’t come at any surprise. I recently rented a C200 for a documentary shoot to use alongside the 500 for 60p capture, as one of the small downsides of the C500 as you know is lack of format options for 4K60 and above (our project must be delivered in 4K).
I was very pleasantly surprised with the results out of the C200, we really only had the option to shoot in 4:2:0, which as you know is the main limiting factor of this camera. I didn’t really care as the cam was used for a specific purpose as a b-cam to our proper rig. On mid to high end productions the C200 is really only suitable as a b-cam if shooting in mp4, and it’s not really that feasible to shoot in raw unless you plan on using a lot of cards (which are $$$)
That said the image coming out of this camera in 4K in MP4 is pretty damn impressive and matches up very well with the C500. There are three log profiles in the C200, c-log 2 having the most dynamic range. I shot on c-log 1 as it is very similar to the C500’s c-log. The image coming out of the C500 in c-log at bt.709 is just a hair more contrastey than the C200, but with the similarity in tones and latitude in each they will of course cut together seamlessly.
I am strongly considering purchasing the C200 now. If only it were $2000 less it would be priced more in line with its specs. If you are using this as a b cam with the C500 and you don’t mind the gap in specs, this camera is a no-brainer. To me anyways...
 
Gruvpix said:
I am strongly considering purchasing the C200 now. If only it were $2000 less it would be priced more in line with its specs.
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That bit is only true if you ignore RAW, right? I can't think of a camera that has the ability to shoot internal 4K RAW at 60fps that's less expensive than the C200. Even the UMP is more expensive when you factor in a ready to shoot kit, and the Raven is waaay more expensive.
 
Fahnon said:
That bit is only true if you ignore RAW, right? I can't think of a camera that has the ability to shoot internal 4K RAW at 60fps that's less expensive than the C200. Even the UMP is more expensive when you factor in a ready to shoot kit, and the Raven is waaay more expensive.
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Sure, I guess $2000 off is a bit much. The point I'm trying to make is the camera is not really specifically for anyone, like if I was shooting a short film or music video necessitating the 4K raw feature, I may as well just rent a Red or use the C500 as it's not super practical in the field on these types of productions. There's no simultaneous HDMI/SDI output (i.e. you get one monitor, that's it), and you can't even record backup files in 10-bit from either output source. It's trying to be a 'pro' camera with raw capture but it's not quite there.

The niche I could see this unit occupying on higher end productions is a dedicated gimbal/drone camera. You can strip it down pretty good and being that you get a fantastic image in raw off the CFast cards, this is the type of rig you would just set and forget on the gimbal and use it for that purpose only.

So in that sense the pricing of $7,500 isn't super out of line. It wasn't designed to be an a-cam, but at least other cameras in this class can be used as a broadcast a-cam (looking at FS5, Panasonic EVA, Ursa Mini Pro). Again it depends on what you're doing. For documentary/corporate work which the Canon form factor and reliability lends itself to, I don't see many people shooting raw as it's just not worth the headache when you need to capture a lot of footage.
 
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Gruvpix said:
Sure, I guess $2000 off is a bit much. The point I'm trying to make is the camera is not really specifically for anyone, like if I was shooting a short film or music video necessitating the 4K raw feature, I may as well just rent a Red or use the C500 as it's not super practical in the field on these types of productions. There's no simultaneous HDMI/SDI output (i.e. you get one monitor, that's it), and you can't even record backup files in 10-bit from either output source. It's trying to be a 'pro' camera with raw capture but it's not quite there.

The niche I could see this unit occupying on higher end productions is a dedicated gimbal/drone camera. You can strip it down pretty good and being that you get a fantastic image in raw off the CFast cards, this is the type of rig you would just set and forget on the gimbal and use it for that purpose only.

So in that sense the pricing of $7,500 isn't super out of line. It wasn't designed to be an a-cam, but at least other cameras in this class can be used as a broadcast a-cam (looking at FS5, Panasonic EVA, Ursa Mini Pro). Again it depends on what you're doing. For documentary/corporate work which the Canon form factor and reliability lends itself to, I don't see many people shooting raw as it's just not worth the headache when you need to capture a lot of footage.
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I dunno, man, indie filmmaking seems to be exactly what this is appropriate for. If you already own a C500 and don't mind bolting on a recorder to get RAW, sure, but I shot several shorts on a BMCC with no issues and this camera kicks that cameras arse. Personally I haven't needed more than the built-in monitor + a 7" external monitor, or to record 4k 10-bit backup files (you can get 10-bit 2k backup files, or 8-bit 4k).

Feels plenty practical on my end (I own one), but we all work differently...
 
I don't know about C200 "never" being an A-cam. That Ashleigh Carter Jag commercial looks pretty nice. It may not look like ARRI bit it doesn't cost like ARRI either and its quality is pretty darn good.
 
DLD said:
I don't know about C200 "never" being an A-cam. That Ashleigh Carter Jag commercial looks pretty nice. It may not look like ARRI bit it doesn't cost like ARRI either and its quality is pretty darn good.
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Yea fair enough - that spot does look pretty great I just checked it out. I suppose I'm kind of in between on it because I couldn't imagine why for a shoot like that they wouldn't have gone all out with a bigger cinema rig - again not that there's anything wrong with the C200 I really like the camera, it just seems like it's not pro enough for the high-end DOPs, but also missing key features needed for run and gun. Like it's trying to operate in a middle ground by giving 8-bit on the low end and beautiful 4K raw on the other with nothing in between...

Anyways like the other fellow said it's all about how you work and what you're used to. Personally I'm not a big fan of workarounds like that $700 SDI pass-through box and about $1500 worth of CFast cards so I can shoot an hour long interview (with pausing to swap). Of course you could play devil's advocate and tell me I'm a hypocrite for buying a C500 that you need a $2000 external recorder with to get anything more than 1080p out of the camera :)
 
Fahnon said:
That bit is only true if you ignore RAW, right? I can't think of a camera that has the ability to shoot internal 4K RAW at 60fps that's less expensive than the C200. Even the UMP is more expensive when you factor in a ready to shoot kit, and the Raven is waaay more expensive.
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4K URSA Mini! $3K...around $2K on eBay.
 
Gruvpix said:
I may as well just rent a Red or use the C500 as it's not super practical in the field on these types of productions.

The niche I could see this unit occupying on higher end productions is a dedicated gimbal/drone camera.
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It's practical in other ways though with low light and lightweight size, have you seen the Jaguar commercial and the BTS, it's obvious that it wouldn't be the A-cam on a big production, it was never meant to be that to begin with, but any production with a hefty budget would go for the big gun cameras anyway. This is definitely made for B-cam situations on big productions or A-cam situations for the smaller productions.

For the indie feature scene, I don't think there are any rules and could see it being used as A-cam quite easily.

For me personally I service a lot of shoot and edit jobs and mostly have the freedom to shoot how I want as long as I deliver, it maybe a fashion event or a brand activation but I get a chance to shoot raw mainly because I want to get the best possible image I can within that category of work.

Shooting on a raw format isn't practical of course but thats the nature of the beast, no pain without gain and there is no other internal raw camera with these low light capabilities, lightweight and built in ND's around, so it's big leap up for shooters who have been shooting 5D3 ML over the last few years.
 
Thanks Gruvpix, I actually ended up with the C200 for a weekend and loved it so much that I bought it. Now I use the C500 and C200 interchangebly without any problems.

If anyone else is interested, both cameras pump out something magical and match together really, really... really well. The MP4 from the C200 reminds me of the C100, the image shouldn't hold up that good on paper, but it does. Raw files out of the C200 are very similar in size to Prores that comes out of the C500, so the file size doesn't bother me. The transcoding is annoying, so can't wait for native premiere support.
 
Gruvpix said:
Yea fair enough - that spot does look pretty great I just checked it out. I suppose I'm kind of in between on it because I couldn't imagine why for a shoot like that they wouldn't have gone all out with a bigger cinema rig - again not that there's anything wrong with the C200 I really like the camera, it just seems like it's not pro enough for the high-end DOPs, but also missing key features needed for run and gun. Like it's trying to operate in a middle ground by giving 8-bit on the low end and beautiful 4K raw on the other with nothing in between...
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EgoDisk cards are about a $1/GB and one gets about half hour out of a 256 GB card in Raw Light. The 8-bit internal has been discussed on these forums for a long time (but I can bring up the conspiracy angle on demand and at a moment's notice). IMO, the summary on the camera is, as posted before, that 8-bit H264 is good enough for most interviews, especially where you control the lighting, and RL is good enough for pretty much any lo/no budget narrative. The big productions will always use the most expensive cameras simply because they can ... even if there's no real difference between a $100,000 camera and a $10,000 camera in final image.
 
bill totolo said:
The C500 may be a forgotten gem:
https://vimeo.com/156468821
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I'll disagree with that Bill- simply because of the fan noise- especially when the C500 was current (I had a couple, plus O7Q recorders). The image out of the C500 was very nice indeed, when recorded by an Odyssey- even old fashioned 2K. The RAW files looked great- but the data overhead was not manageable back in the day unless you had a big picture budget. Zero producers opted to shoot RAW out of the C500 for data alone.

When the Epics first came out we had big issues with fan noise on long interviews- Red more or less addressed or at least tried to improve the problem, but Canon never did- at least when I had the C500s.

The C300Mk2 is what the C500 should have been- if the technology was available. The C200 is another step forward in technology from the C300M2 in some ways. Why can't the C300M2 shoot RAW internally???

Personally I hate the monitor/audio modules on the C series cameras- but that's neither here nor there.

If I were in the market for a sub $10K camera, I'd look at the C200 or maybe EVA-1. I would also consider a used Alexa Classic w/ high speed license, and I'd get an EF mount for it (those are available now). My camera is stuck on UHD but most everything is shot for the WEB these days, so Alexa 1080 is still valid. You just need a ton of high amp batteries and a heavy tripod- and ND filters w/ matte box, SxS cards and reader, an AC to schlepp it around, etc. etc. etc
but we're talking image quality not convenience
 
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Following the C200’s launch, I’ve come to the following conclusion:

The C200 is a camera that provides all the solutions you need, for people looking for those and more problems than you can handle for people looking for those.
 
jaredcgray said:
Thanks Gruvpix, I actually ended up with the C200 for a weekend and loved it so much that I bought it. Now I use the C500 and C200 interchangebly without any problems.

If anyone else is interested, both cameras pump out something magical and match together really, really... really well. The MP4 from the C200 reminds me of the C100, the image shouldn't hold up that good on paper, but it does. Raw files out of the C200 are very similar in size to Prores that comes out of the C500, so the file size doesn't bother me. The transcoding is annoying, so can't wait for native premiere support.
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Totally, the mp4 files really are great out of this unit and if you nail your exposure and aren’t grading aggressively the files are more than fine for 95% of commercial shoots. This is a great unit for those already invested in canon and EF glass, whether as a b-cam/specialty cam to a C300 or C500, or as a big brother to the C100
 
AndreeOnline said:
Following the C200’s launch, I’ve come to the following conclusion:

The C200 is a camera that provides all the solutions you need, for people looking for those and more problems than you can handle for people looking for those.
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Haha perfect, Canon should use that for the launch of every camera.

Klk - have you seen the audio module on the c200? Much better design.
 
klk said:
I would also consider a used Alexa Classic w/ high speed license, and I'd get an EF mount for it (those are available now). My camera is stuck on UHD but most everything is shot for the WEB these days, so Alexa 1080 is still valid.
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Where can this EF mount be purchased? All I've seen are adapters which loose light transmission.
 
klk said:
I'll disagree with that Bill- simply because of the fan noise- especially when the C500 was current (I had a couple, plus O7Q recorders). The image out of the C500 was very nice indeed, when recorded by an Odyssey- even old fashioned 2K...
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I suppose "I had a couple" is a hint that you no longer have even one but the fan noise issue was addressed in a different thread, where a third party mod did the trick (that "third party" was one of the DVXUsers).

And 7Q can do Raw-to-ProRes, though it may not have been able to do that at the beginning.
 
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