AF100 / AF101 - initial report

[PaPa]

I´m in love with the AF100, but for me the only minor drawback is the lack of in body stabilization, cause we gonna use a lot of manual lens, and the only stabilized lens out there are panys m4/3 lens with OIS, and aren´t too great. This will be a nice guerilla camera and a lot of handheld shot will be used.

I guess there will be coming better lenses from panasonic for the AF100, maybe a 70-200 f2.8 like the Olympus... but with OIS...pleaseeee.

Thanks Jan for been so kindly with your answers.

Sorry for my english

I guess a lot of that be forgiven if the skew is significantly toned down from the GH1 and 7D in 24p modes. This guy shouldn't be too difficult to manage with a shoulder rig, but maybe for run and gun styles, I can see where not having stabilization in camera could give you troubles.

When are we expected to see some footage from the AF100? Would love to see the panning/whip panning characteristics. Anything that gives us an indicator of the skew element that may or may not be present.

 

[Rick Burnett]

I'm confused, the majority of my lenses do support autofocus, only one is manual and it is a Bower. That said though, I am referring to m4/3 lenses with electronic focus ability. If the camera can drive the electronic focus in those lenses you mention, why cant manual control be added as well? I'm not understaning tue technical limitation preventing it. I don't want rails and a redundant motor since one already exists in the lens.

All I can hope now is Birger gives us electronic control, but that's not going to help me for pulling remote rack focus on native m4/3 lenses , just EF and Nikon.

 

[Peter Reynolds]

AF-100 with servo zoom?

AF-100 with servo zoom?

My 500 isn't going anywhere because there are some shoot I still need a servo zoom lens.

I'll still pick up an AF-100 for the artsy fartsy stuff though.

Please forgive what might be a silly question: Any chance there will be an AF-100 compatible servo zoom lens? Something akin to the EX-3 lens?

I do a lot of work that requires a zoom. Having that plus the ability to use my Canon primes would make the camera perfect for me.

Thoughts?

 

[dcarstens]

When I put my hands on the demo AF100 at DVExpo last week, I gave it some good jostling, panning rapidly back and forth, looking for how much skew the sensor would display. I believe the camera had a 35mm CP.2 on it. Judging from the larger monitor is was hooked up to, it handled about comparable to a RED MX.

Of course, I approached Jan about the possibility of a future model with P2/AVC-Intra or 4:4:4 HD-SDI output, questions she has apparently gotten sick of answering and gave me the repeatedly short response of, "what do you expect at this price point??" When I asked her about those features at twice the price, she didn't seem very positive about it. Note to others: don't grill Jan at an expo!

 

[NPrincen]

A new version of the Jan Crittenden DVExpo presentation on the AG-AF100 with an updated frame rate slide is now uploaded. Jan sent the new frame rate slide to clarify some confusion about the native frame rate. It is also easier to read because I figured out how to get the right 9:16 aspect ratio in the PDF file. Download the new version using the link below:

http://dvxuser.mikkowilson.com/DVExpo_AF100_V2.pdfhttp://www.mediafire.com/?44wcwd3x6v3mvv8

 

[mikkowilson]

New version also re-hosted for direct download: http://dvxuser.mikkowilson.com/DVExpo_AF100_V2.pdf

- Mikko

 

[Jim Brennan]

I guess I need to crawl out from under my rock. I'm not a tech guy, so forgive my ignorance.

First, some basic questions. If I am understanding portions of this conversation correctly, can I expect a different quality video (bitrate, colorspace, crackerjacks) outputting SDI than on the SD Cards?

I read through the bitrate conversation, but haven't heard any talk about colorspace. Is that tied to the codec, hence meaning a 4:2:0 colorspace? I'm just curious, because for years the general attitude (IMHO) from the Panasonic Fans (of which I am a huge member) has been to poo-poo 4:2:0 colorspace compared to the 4:2:2 colorspace one gets on the HVX/HPX. Or am I showing everyone how dumb I am...again? I know that it has been one of the shots launched against HDV cameras over the years.

Honestly, numbers don't mean anything to me. I just want a quality image that makes my clients happy (even if that client happen to be me at times). That's why I keep coming back to Panny. I just want to understand (or at least be able to regurgitate) the specs on the camera i will be buying by Dec 31, 2010.

I have been shooting and/or editing with HVXs (with and without adapters), RED, and the 7D. This sounds like somebody laid those camera features out on a table and tried different combinations of features to see what was the best they could do for under 5K. I'll miss p2 and DVCPRO HD. But then again, I'm one of 13 people on the planet that misses tape...sometimes.

I can't imagine a better combination of features for the indie filmmaker at this price point. There are features I'd like to have (and wold pay a little more for), but there is no doubt that I'm getting one of these bad boys.

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

First, some basic questions. If I am understanding portions of this conversation correctly, can I expect a different quality video (bitrate, colorspace, crackerjacks) outputting SDI than on the SD Cards?

The output from any SDI source is uncompressed before the codec. It is a 4:2:2 signal at 8 bit. So it would be different.

I read through the bitrate conversation, but haven't heard any talk about colorspace. Is that tied to the codec, hence meaning a 4:2:0 colorspace? I'm just curious, because for years the general attitude (IMHO) from the Panasonic Fans (of which I am a huge member) has been to poo-poo 4:2:0 colorspace compared to the 4:2:2 colorspace one gets on the HVX/HPX.

We have pop-pooed 4:2:0 in the past and I think what many of us did not realize was that the majority of what was wrong with it was more wrong with MPEG2. I know I have seen amazing resullts coming off of AVCCAM cameras.

Honestly, numbers don't mean anything to me. I just want a quality image that makes my clients happy (even if that client happen to be me at times). That's why I keep coming back to Panny. I just want to understand (or at least be able to regurgitate) the specs on the camera i will be buying by Dec 31, 2010.

I look forward to your owning one as well. The image will be beautiful.

I have been shooting and/or editing with HVXs (with and without adapters), RED, and the 7D. This sounds like somebody laid those camera features out on a table and tried different combinations of features to see what was the best they could do for under 5K. I'll miss p2 and DVCPRO HD. But then again, I'm one of 13 people on the planet that misses tape...sometimes.

Then you were in the room with us. ;-)

I can't imagine a better combination of features for the indie filmmaker at this price point. There are features I'd like to have (and wold pay a little more for), but there is no doubt that I'm getting one of these bad boys.

Thank you for the vote of confidence.

Best,

Jan

 

[Lyris]

We have pop-pooed 4:2:0 in the past and I think what many of us did not realize was that the majority of what was wrong with it was more wrong with MPEG2. I know I have seen amazing resullts coming off of AVCCAM cameras.

I spend a good (i.e. unhealthy) amount of time authoring DVDs of 35mm feature films from Digital Betacam, so that in itself is a 4:2:2 to 4:2:0 conversion.

The biggest differences I keep seeing between 4:2:2 and DVD's 4:2:0 are in the reproduction of coloured film grain (so obviously not a problem for a digital camera...) and in chromatic aberration near the edges of the frame.

I would like higher than 4:2:0, but it seems like a smart compromise given the $5k list price.

 

[Duke M.]

You can always stick a nanoflash on the HD-SDI to have 4.2.2 with I-frame and up to 280Mbps and uncompressed sound if its important to you.

Its a sweet combo with the EX1, no reason why it shouldn't be with the AF100 too. That combo should match or beat the output of cameras costing tens of thousands of dollars more.

For about $10k you could put together a combo of camera, lenses and Nano that should meet anyone's requirements.

 

[Barry_Green]

First, some basic questions. If I am understanding portions of this conversation correctly, can I expect a different quality video (bitrate, colorspace, crackerjacks) outputting SDI than on the SD Cards?

Sure; as has said by others here before, you're talking about a completely uncompressed signal with 4:2:2 color sampling, vs. a long-GoP compressed image at 4:2:0, so certainly the HD-SDI signal will be cleaner and better-looking. How much better, we don't know (as in, will it really be worth it to try to record the uncompressed signal?) That'll be put to the test sooner or later.

I'm just curious, because for years the general attitude (IMHO) from the Panasonic Fans (of which I am a huge member) has been to poo-poo 4:2:0 colorspace compared to the 4:2:2 colorspace one gets on the HVX/HPX.

Well, that's because 4:2:2 is twice as much color info as 4:2:0. And twice as much is twice as much, which is just plain better. But, here's where the major difference comes in -- where 4:2:0 SUCKS is in interlaced footage, and interlaced footage was part and parcel of HDV and DVD. 4:2:0 in an interlaced recording is just awful. Whoever engineered it needs to be substantially punished. 4:2:0 in progressive is nowhere near as offensive. Let me put it a different way: 4:2:2 in progressive is great. 4:2:2 in interlaced is great. 4:2:0 in progressive is quite good. 4:2:0 in interlaced is puke. So much of the hatred of 4:2:0 is because of the interlaced formats it was recorded in. 4:2:0 in progressive is fine, it's a solid implementation, but it's half the res of 4:2:2. I think the substantially better 4:2:0 progressive vs. interlaced thing is one reason why people preferred the HDV from a Canon XHA1 over the HDV from any of the Sony models; the Sonys (up until the V1?) always recorded interlaced, and the XHA1 actually implemented progressive recording. So that helped.

Still, there's no getting around that 4:2:0 has half the color resolution of 4:2:2. 4:2:2 is better and always will be. (which is one reason why there's been a few of us persistent naggers who are asking for a newer/upmarket model, with 4:2:2 and P2 and AVC-Intra). But 4:2:0 in progressive is pretty good, and when you're talking about a low-bandwidth codec, you have to make choices as to which is more important for the overall integrity of the picture - more bits dedicated to doubling the color resolution, or using those bits for the overall image? In AVCHD's case, they made the choice that 4:2:0 was adequate.

For many uses, 4:2:0 looks pretty good. I know the footage off the HMC40/HMC80 can look surprisingly good. For greenscreen work I'd always prefer 4:2:2, and ... well, whenever I can have it, I'd always prefer 4:2:2. Which is why I think I'll sink the dough into a Ki Pro Mini.

I have been shooting and/or editing with HVXs (with and without adapters), RED, and the 7D. This sounds like somebody laid those camera features out on a table and tried different combinations of features to see what was the best they could do for under 5K.

That is pretty much exactly how the process worked, as Jan has confirmed. A long time ago she put together a confab of about 30 cinematographers, videographers, DSLR shooters, etc., and she asked me to make a few recommendations of those who I thought might just be the perfect candidates for this panel, and we all got together in a room with the engineers and designers, and explained to them exactly what we'd want if we had a chance to build our dream camera. And while there was always the overriding pesky notion that yeah, there's a limit to what can be done within a given price tag, I have to say I'm quite pleased with what they came up with. They certainly listened and they got the message. And of the things we asked for and didn't get (such as 10-bit throughout the production path and through the SDI and on the recording), the answer is always the same - they couldn't do it within the price point, and making it affordable was a key/primary design goal. And $4699 street is less than the original HVX200, so while some will be disappointed that it's not a $600 DSLR, I think a lot of us are fine with the price point they hit.

I can't imagine a better combination of features for the indie filmmaker at this price point. There are features I'd like to have (and wold pay a little more for), but there is no doubt that I'm getting one of these bad boys.

Exactly. There are some of us who would gladly pay a couple thousand more for P2/AVC-Intra/10-bit, but realistically, how big a percentage of the potential market are we, vs. the larger market who will be happier that they can actually afford it? I think they made the right choices, and a Ki Pro Mini gets me almost everything, at the price premium that I would be willing to pay, regarding an intraframe 4:2:2 codec. Not 10-bit, but everything else is there.

 

[Jim Brennan]

Thanks for all the explanations. I'm looking forward to seeing this (hopefully) at the VidExpo in Colorado next month.

 

[ripupthehwy]

I'm really hoping that the importing of the avchd or whatever they are, files will not be a nightmare. I like the P2 Select software Panasonic makes for easier management and importing of files. Will there be anything like that for using the files from this camera?

 

[Butcher]

I'm really hoping that the importing of the avchd or whatever they are, files will not be a nightmare.

This is one the main reasons I take issue with AVCHD, besides the 4:2:0 color. It's processor intensive and many NLEs don't offer native support, and those that do still work best when it's transcoded to a more editor friendly format (ProRes/DNxHD). For the cost, the AF-100 is stunning and I can't wait until it's out to see the footage. But it's not on my wishlist until they come out with a P2 version that records to DVCProHD or (preferably) AVC-Intra (at a greatly increased price, which I'm perfectly ok with).

 

[groveChuck]

I guess I need to crawl out from under my rock.

Welcome to the AF100 forum, Jim- a very excited, passionate place!

Then you were in the room with us. ;-)

Jim was, but under a rock, unfortunately ;^)

I look forward to your owning one as well. The image will be beautiful.

It's in the warranty... guaranteed...

. 4:2:0 in an interlaced recording is just awful.

But will the 4:2:0 progressive recording look good or not-so-good/awful once put to DVD, Barry?

. A long time ago she put together a confab of about 30 cinematographers, videographers, DSLR shooters, etc., and she asked me to make a few recommendations of those who I thought might just be the perfect candidates for this panel, and we all got together in a room with the engineers and designers, and explained to them exactly what we'd want if we had a chance to build our dream camera.

THIS is the mind-boggling part- that a $65 billion company such as Panasonic would let the users define what it is they're looking for, and then build it! In what, a year???
Stunning! :thumbsup:

 

[Jim Brennan]

Welcome to the AF100 forum, Jim- a very excited, passionate place!

Thanks. It's amazing how much I miss when I have to actually shoot and edit instead of filling my brain up here. :beer:

 

[groveChuck]

Don't you just hate it when work gets in the way of the forum? :happy:

 

[Rolf Schwarz]

workflow

workflow

hi,

really good news with the upcoming af 101!what makes me think is the
workflow after shooting...at the moment i'm using the hpx 171(with sg-pro) and editing
in avid 3.1 mc(pc),it's quite good to have p2 to import the clips,quick and easy,
but what about the avchd files,it seems to be a bit harder to get them into
the system(converting?) and is the quality(4:2:0) as good as dvcpro hd (4:2:2)?

 

[Butcher]

For Avid, update to Media Composer 5. Then you can do a traditional File-->Import of the AVCHD files and Avid will convert them to DNxHD upon import. You can import at a lower resolution (SD), cut, then batch import your locked sequence at higher resolution for Offline/Online (and faster initial transcode times). It's not as fast and simple as the current P2 workflow, and the transcode times can be long depending on your system specs, so take that into consideration.

Michael

 

[Coco Bermudez]

A long time ago she put together a confab of about 30 cinematographers, videographers, DSLR shooters, etc., and she asked me to make a few recommendations of those who I thought might just be the perfect candidates for this panel, and we all got together in a room with the engineers and designers, and explained to them exactly what we'd want if we had a chance to build our dream camera.

Is there a list as to who contributed to in this panel? Out of curiosity, I would be interested in knowing who were the heavy hitters part of this....