Abel Cine Measures Sensitivity & DR

[nyvz]

When you compare cine 1 of the FS 100 and the F3 you can see the F3 going well beyond 100 IRE. Maybe the Fs100 was set to cine 2 which uses only legal broadcast values.

F3: http://www.imagebanana.com/view/hc4jbumb/F3.PNG
FS100: http://www.imagebanana.com/view/pqzppeuc/fs100.PNG

The FS100 does not use the same picture profile system as XDCAM EX cameras like the F3 and EX1/3 . It sounds like they used the cinematone1 gamma mode, which from what I was told by a Sony rep was designed around mimicking a particular negative film response curve as opposed to cinematone2 which I can't seem to recall exactly but I think he said was designed to mimic something like a positive film response curve. Basically cinematone1 is the gamma mode to use.

What is interesting, though, is when I used the FS100 briefly at a sony event, knee adjustments were available no matter what gamma mode was selected, which is unlike XDCAM EX cameras where cinegamma overrides the knee option so that knee can only be used with std gamma modes.

 

[cheezweezl]

That is just the still from the ISO tests, not from the DR test. Clearly they used a proper wide latitude backlit chart for latitude testing.

did i miss the part where that was clearly stated? because i didn't see anything about how the DR test was done. only a screen shot of the wfm.

 

[nyvz]

did i miss the part where that was clearly stated? because i didn't see anything about how the DR test was done. only a screen shot of the wfm.

No you definitely didnt miss it, it's really unclear in the article, I just inferred based on how they did previous DR tests on their blog. Best case scenario they did do the DR test with properly set up backlit charts but with very little explanation or analysis so the "measurements" and conclusions mean next to nothing to me, worst case they actually did do it with some kind of front lit chart and the conclusions mean absolutely nothing to me. I definitely take other people's tests, especially those from organizations with a stake in upselling particular products, with a grain of salt. And with such incredibly sparse documentation of preparation, methods, analysis, etc I'd make it a really big grain of salt.

 

[Mitch Gross]

The Dynamic Range testing was in fact done with a backlit transparency chart, a product of DSC Labs. The front lit chart was for mapping color response and to measure noise in the various color channels when applying so much gain.

I stepped in briefly for this testing; Andy's the one who did the work. He completely knows what he is doing and we often double-check one another to make sure we're thinking along proper lines. He & I (and a particularly important person from Sony) agreed that the camera showed just shy of 10 stops of Dynamic Range. We also agreed that for what this camera is that this response is pretty sweet.

 

[morgan_moore]

The Dynamic Range testing was in fact done with a backlit transparency chart, a product of DSC Labs. The front lit chart was for mapping color response and to measure noise in the various color channels when applying so much gain.

I stepped in briefly for this testing; Andy's the one who did the work. He completely knows what he is doing and we often double-check one another to make sure we're thinking along proper lines. He & I (and a particularly important person from Sony) agreed that the camera showed just shy of 10 stops of Dynamic Range. We also agreed that for what this camera is that this response is pretty sweet.

Having watched - at vimeo quality - Mr Bloom non science test of the three sub $20k S35 cameras and the 5d to my eye the colours and banding of the vid cams went so wrong (almost flourecent skies ) at the high end (esp the banding of the Af100) that the fully blown look of the 5d is far preferable and the DR testing useless without some analysis of banding, colour solidity and to transition blown

This is why the 5d always looks great but fails in tests, the tests are flawed

what dya think?

S

 

[Washington Irving]

We also agreed that for what this camera is that this response is pretty sweet.

Have you tested any other cameras in the same way? It would be good to see how the DR of the FS100 is relative to some other cameras I've used. Such as the 5d, AF100 and F3.
Comparing one DR test to another is almost impossible and perhaps knowing the DR of this camera relative to others would be more useful.
Personally I was hoping it would hit 11 stops.
Thanks for the test.

 

[Doctor Wu]

They've tested the F3 in the same way at abelcine. Just go to their blog and search for "f3 dynamic range".

As for the Panny Af100, there's been a few tests by dvxuser members and others who have found its DR to to be 10+.

Now that's somewhat better than what abelcine reports for the FS100, but abelcine's is just one test mind you. And we'll have to wait until there's more tests done before handing the gold star in this particular category of performance to the AF100.

I myself could afford the F3 with a set of Cine primes, but instead I'm getting the FS100 and will use my nikons and canon stills. Why? Because I've been working in post production and coloring for the past two years, and because my client base as a shooter dried up, there's really no business sense buying a 40K rig when the clients aren't there anymore for me. Without enough clients, any purchase, becomes a "personal" purchase and should fit into your budgets as such.

Have you tested any other cameras in the same way? It would be good to see how the DR of the FS100 is relative to some other cameras I've used. Such as the 5d, AF100 and F3.
Comparing one DR test to another is almost impossible and perhaps knowing the DR of this camera relative to others would be more useful.
Personally I was hoping it would hit 11 stops.
Thanks for the test.

 

[cheezweezl]

I myself could afford the F3 with a set of Cine primes, but instead I'm getting the FS100 and will use my nikons and canon stills. Why? Because I've been working in post production and coloring for the past two years, and because my client base as a shooter dried up, there's really no business sense buying a 40K rig when the clients aren't there anymore for me. Without enough clients, any purchase, becomes a "personal" purchase and should fit into your budgets as such.

I'm in almost the same boat. I do shoot quite a bit but I'm spending more time in the edit/color suite as of late. I was so sure I was gonna buy the F3 and just rent it out when I wasn't using it. However, I already see F3's with cine lenses renting for $300/day or less here in LA. History tells me that once more F3's hit the streets the rental price will only drop from there. After all, I can rent a Red MX with glass, drives, and a 17" monitor for $300/day. So once I saw that the FS100 was producing footage that is nearly identical to the F3 for a little over 1/3 the cost, it was a no-brainer.

So 10 stops, 9 stops, 11 stops, whatever. The footage I have seen looks killer and the low light performance is making my toes tingle. I'm positive that paired up with a good external recorder, the FS100 will produce some badass footage, period.

 

[Shipsides]

Hey, wait a minute.

The scope shot only seems to show 10 stops of DR. Yet the chart has 11 stops of value clearly visible, without getting into whites. The dome on the light meter is another value whiter that's clearly visible. I don't think this is a valid test of DR range.

Also, the F3 is ISO 500 at -3db. The FS100 is ISO 500 at 0db gain. Is there no -3db on the FS100? (Which would make the ND filter situation less dire if -3db is ISO 200 or 300. I heard there wasn't on the preproduction model, what about the production models? Anyone have one?)

We are using an 18 step back lite gray scale chart to determine the DR of the camera, yes you can count 11 gray chips on the front lite chroma du monde, but they are not representing actual stop of light difference. The back lite chart gives much more accurate stop differences. I can see the confusion because I showed the front lite chart in the blog. I preformed this test with a Sony representative in the room, and we all agreed it was fair.

Cinetone2 had less range overall compared to CineTone1, with less stops in the low end of the curve. The FS100 does not have a -3 gain on it.

 

[Shipsides]

Have you tested any other cameras in the same way? It would be good to see how the DR of the FS100 is relative to some other cameras I've used. Such as the 5d, AF100 and F3.
Comparing one DR test to another is almost impossible and perhaps knowing the DR of this camera relative to others would be more useful.
Personally I was hoping it would hit 11 stops.
Thanks for the test.

We have an F3 ISO test on the blog, which was done in the same way. I also did this same test with the AF100 and other cameras.

 

[FelixGER]

How much gain -> noise do you guys think is maximum for professional narrative work (without denoising in post)?
+6?

 

[Shipsides]

No you definitely didnt miss it, it's really unclear in the article, I just inferred based on how they did previous DR tests on their blog. Best case scenario they did do the DR test with properly set up backlit charts but with very little explanation or analysis so the "measurements" and conclusions mean next to nothing to me, worst case they actually did do it with some kind of front lit chart and the conclusions mean absolutely nothing to me. I definitely take other people's tests, especially those from organizations with a stake in upselling particular products, with a grain of salt. And with such incredibly sparse documentation of preparation, methods, analysis, etc I'd make it a really big grain of salt.

Nyvz,

Thanks for the note, I've updated the blog with a note about the use of the 18 step back lit chart. It should have been stated more clearly what are methods were in preparing this data. If you check out our F3 dynamic range blog then you can see my exact method. This test was done with a Sony rep in the room, who also Ok'd posting it on our blog. It was not intended to be an upsell another product versus this one, we have stake in selling a huge variety of cameras so it is not in my interest to speak negative about any one camera. We try to be as unbiased as possible and still support or vendors, it's a tricky situation that I hope you can understand.

 

[Shipsides]

How much gain -> noise do you guys think is maximum for professional narrative work (without denoising in post)?
+6?

I think +18 is still acceptable and I showed the camera to a couple of television production companies and they agreed after going through post with the footage.

 

[FelixGER]

JESUS!
That´s more than incredible!

Thank you for the info.
I have another question. On your dynamic range test, middle grey was @ about 25 IRE instead of 50?
That´s pretty low I think. On the F3 mid-grey only drops from 50 to 40 IRE, whenswitching form REC709 to cinetone 1.
I´m not sure how much cinetone 1 is usable on the FS100 if mid-brightness drops so much.

But maybe I´m interpreting the chart wrong.

 

[Shipsides]

JESUS!
I have another question. On your dynamic range test, middle grey was @ about 25 IRE instead of 50?
That´s pretty low I think. On the F3 mid-grey only drops from 50 to 40 IRE, when switching form REC709 to cinetone 1.
I´m not sure how much cinetone 1 is usable on the FS100 if mid-brightness drops so much.

That's a good point. It does drop that middle value considerably when exposing for the brightest white, especially when compared to the F3. We could interpret the chart differently and choose the middle gray point one stop higher, giving us 3 stops above and 6 below. That would probably be more accurate to how it would actually be used.

I only had the FS100 in house for a couple hours again, after all of these good comments I've decided to do a more in-depth analysis on all the different gamma modes. Just need to get our demo camera in.

 

[J Davis]

Hi Andy can you help me out with two questions. The smallest increments are +3db right?
And also is there back focus adjustment?

 

[Shipsides]

Hi Andy can you help me out with two questions. The smallest increments are +3db right?
And also is there back focus adjustment?

Yes +3 is the small increment of gain increase, which would equal a half stop push (+6db is a full stop). There is no back focus (flange focal depth) adjustment on the mount, however both the HotRod PL adapter as well as the 16x9 PL adapter that we will be stocking can be shimmed for proper back focus.

 

[J Davis]

thanks andy, was hoping for 1/3rd stop but half is fine

... however both the HotRod PL adapter as well as the 16x9 PL adapter that we will be stocking can be shimmed for proper back focus.

sweet

 

[nyvz]

We also agreed that for what this camera is that this response is pretty sweet.

Oh? My understanding as far as numbers that get thrown around for latitude for similar cameras was that under 10stops puts it in the range of 3 year old 1/2" cameras with ~9x less imaging area and ~9x smaller photosites. Compared to similar sized sensor cameras at competing prices, it is also less than most video-capable DSLR cameras despite their relatively small photosites and utilized imaging area while shooting video and even below the AF100 with its 1/2" sensor-sized photosites. Less than 10 stops is a figure that does not sound all that compelling in that context. Also, given that the FS100 is described as having the same sensor as the F3 which at the sensor level appears to be capable of capturing as many as 13-14 stops of latitude when considering performance in slog mode. Even the F3, which is apparently crippled in latitude by all non-slog gamma options clipping to white 2-3 stops earlier than at the sensor level, seems to be far ahead of the FS100 despite having the "same sensor". Anyone is likely to find these numbers suspect given those details, and I'm sure many of us were hopeful that we would not be sacrificing latitude by using such a new clean sensor and when moving from our $1500 DSLRs to this $5000 camcorder, but this test seems to imply we may be making compromises. It is hard to imagine how Sony could get so little performance out of a sensor with so much potential. Perhaps this can be optimized using different picture profile settings after more extensive testing?

 

[Mitch Gross]

You seem to imply a conspiracy here where there is none. Dynamic Range is often attenuated in a Pictice Profile matrix to get the most out of a camera's capture format. In essence the sensors ALWAYS are capable of more than the rest of the camera can handle. The F3 can do more complex work because it is a more complex machine. It's not like the F3 has the identical guts of the FS100 with some bogus circuit boards tossed in to pad out the space. There is more going on there so it costs more. Unlike what some would choose to believe, Sony does not manufacture a single camera design and then turn off features for the cheaper models. Each model is an optimized design based on the parameters at hand, one of which is price point.