HMC150 vs. Canon XH-A1 vs. ?

S

sindrejibb

Member
Hi!

I make skimovies and I feel ready to step up to the semi-pro/pro-segment. But I have no experience with these pro-cameras, so I ask here.

It can't be too expensive, so I've seen on the Canon XH-A1 and the Panasonic HMC150. Or, I've had a look on more cameras but I think these are getting good comments and they are pretty cheap to be pro-cameras. But which of these? Or do you have a completely other suggestion?

As I make skimovies, I will use this out in the snow, in the terrain. I don't care much about how it look, but it should be pretty easy to handle and what is most important to me is IMAGE QUALITY of course.
 
Of course you're going to get pretty pro-Panasonic opinions around here. Having said that:

The HMC150 is great if you are ready to deal with tapeless. Can your computer/NLE edit AVCHD? Tapeless is more reliable in the cold. It's a much newer camera and has a great picture.

The XH-A1 does have some advantages for ski shooting, mainly the excellent lens which is quite a bit longer than the HMC150's. It delivers a great picture too and is arguably sharper than the HMC150. It shoots HDV, which some say is on the way out. But the truth is its easier to edit at the moment on "regular" computers
 
Hmm, I think my computer can edit AVCHD. I've got 4 GB ram and a Q6600 (quadcore) processor. It should handle it, shouldn't it? And I use Adobe Premiere Pro.

I think it is pretty hard to decide
When you ask if I'm ready to deal with tapeless. Should that be any problem? Isn't that easier than tape? I think tape is a pretty stupid thing, you have to capture in realtime etc. Why should an SD card be a concern?
 
There's lots of things to consider going tapeless. First is archival, since you don't have any tape. You'll have to figure out how and what you are going to archive since you won't have the original camera tape. Also, until your NLE goes native.. then you'll probably have to transcode and convert the footage somehow and that takes time, and space. It'll probably be longer than real time which isn't great. I like the speed of P2 and the AVCHD stuff is no where as immediate or as easy to work with in post.


I personally think that one of your biggest concerns in shoping ski vids would be the cameras ability to handle extremes in terms of exposure, contrast and such. Going from bright snow and sky to dark and shady areas. Your latitude should be something that you look into. ALSO.. I think that you want to have CCD and not CMOS for that stuff. You might also want to look into the SD9 camera if you go with the 150. Great compliment camera for mounting onto a person and for tight small quarters.



WHen going to tapeless HD there's a lot to consider.. but more than likely you won't regret it. In about 2 months, I will have had my HVX for 3 years already and have shot about 1900 hours of footage through the camera.. Simply a great camera and it's made shooting a lot more fun.
 
As far as archiving goes we've opted for 1TB Seagate external USB drives and have been using them for a bout 6 months now - we can fit around 13 full day weddings (including final renders & DVD images) on each drive and leave about 100GB free space for bi-monthly scandisk operations - so far so good :)
 
Can't I just archieve it on a harddisk?

And what do you mean with "until your NLE goes native"?

I think it sounds much more practical to have the videofiles on a SD-card. But I'm also used to tape, so it does really not matter. I just want the best video quality I can get!
 
The cool thing to me about the HMC-150 vs. panasonic's P2 offerings is that SD card prices are getting to the point where you can shoot cards like tape. You don't have to constantly offload your video to reuse the cards, rather the cards themselves can now be your archive.

To me that was the biggest problem going tapeless, the time factor involved in offloading/archiving cards. But shooting inexpensive SD cards presents a whole new workflow.


BTW what they mean by "until your NLE goes native" is that some NLEs have to transcode AVC footage to another codec (e.g. DVC pro HD, Pro Res, etc.) prior to editing. I don't know which NLE you use. I use Final Cut and this is a big hassle right now. I have replaced realtime tape capture with slow as molasses USB 2.0 imports/transcodes. Ugh, this is what they mean when they say "are you ready to go tapeless?" It's not always the carefree process companies make it out to be.
 
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sindrejibb said:
Can't I just archieve it on a harddisk?
Click to expand...

Hard drives are mechanical, so they WILL fail eventually. Last thing I want is to have all my footage on a drive or drive array and have it tank after I've erased the SD card... which with my luck would happen at the worst possible time (like last night when my computer crashed as I was working on this this promo for a client needing it this afternoon). Once my HMC arrives (today... yippee!), I'm going to get a Blu-Ray Disk burner and back up everything to BR disks. Media right now isn't much more than the high end DV tape I use, and that's sure to drop eventually. Plus I can get several hours worth of raw footage on a single disk.

As far as your NLE going native, Premiere CS4 is now shipping and edits native AVCHD (previous versions don't). But I guess it's a bear to edit with if you don't have a beefy machine. My specs are similar to yours... Q6600 and 8 gig of RAM... so when CS4 arrives next week, I can let you know how it works if you want.
 
Ok, thanks! I use Premiere Pro CS3 now, but I'll probably get CS4 ASAP.
So, I think recording to SD cards will be effective, and I think it will be a plus for me.

So, which camera gives you the best colors, quality etc.? That's what's important to me.
 
"So, which camera gives you the best colors, quality etc.? That's what's important to me."


you're on your own on this one. No one can decide which camera looks best to you. I would choose based on format, workflow and then take a look at a camera dealer or expo to see which looks I like better. To be honest I think all of these cameras in this price range look roughly the same. I'd choose the one that makes my life easier.
 
caseyhayward said:
you're on your own on this one. No one can decide which camera looks best to you. I would choose based on format, workflow and then take a look at a camera dealer or expo to see which looks I like better. To be honest I think all of these cameras in this price range look roughly the same. I'd choose the one that makes my life easier.
Click to expand...

For the most part I agree. Also, I know the HMC is extremely tweakable, and I've read the A1 is as well, so the picture straight out of the box on both can be adjusted to your taste.

Honestly, you're not really going wrong with either camera. My bias is to the HMC because of the appeal of going tapeless, AVCHD (knowing the accompanying headaches that come with it), range of tweaks, and the general similarities to the DVX which I currently own. But I don't shoot ski videos, so my needs and wants are going to be different than yours.

Really, rent the A1 if you can for a weekend and play with it. Then rent the HMC if you can and play with it for a weekend. That really is the only way you'll be able to make the best choice.
 
Mike Harvey said:
Hard drives are mechanical, so they WILL fail eventually. Last thing I want is to have all my footage on a drive or drive array and have it tank after I've erased the SD card... which with my luck would happen at the worst possible time (like last night when my computer crashed as I was working on this this promo for a client needing it this afternoon). Once my HMC arrives (today... yippee!), I'm going to get a Blu-Ray Disk burner and back up everything to BR disks. Media right now isn't much more than the high end DV tape I use, and that's sure to drop eventually. Plus I can get several hours worth of raw footage on a single disk.

As far as your NLE going native, Premiere CS4 is now shipping and edits native AVCHD (previous versions don't). But I guess it's a bear to edit with if you don't have a beefy machine. My specs are similar to yours... Q6600 and 8 gig of RAM... so when CS4 arrives next week, I can let you know how it works if you want.
Click to expand...


It would be FOOLISH for anyone to put their critical video files on just one hard drive. While the chances of a failure at that point in time are small, but sooner or later, it will happen. Anyone putting the files onto a hard drive should make a second copy onto a second hard drive, just to be safe. Given that USB and Firewire drives aren't that expensive, it's just good insurance.


Also, some may want to consider using the 8.5 GB Double Layer DVDs to store data from their 8GB SDHC cards. Depending on the brand and quantity purchased in the box, the cost is around $1 to $4 per disk. Like hard drives, I would strongly suggest making a second copy on a second DVD disk.


Bob Diaz
 
Yes, I would of course have a backup. But that is no problem, I have external harddrives, and can buy more! So I don't think SD cards should be any problem, only easier.
 
I think this is more a workflow descision then camera descision.

If you want solid state AVC or TapeBased HDV.

Both have pros and cons.
 
Having been an IT professional in my previous career I can tell you that everything has inherent problems & weaknesses however the most economical and easiest to access I think is the HDD. Today hard drives are made to be ultra reliable otherwise they would not sell hem with 5, 10 & 12 year warranties (Seagate) there is one task you need to perform if you choose hard drives for permanent storage and that data refreshing at regular intervals. I just can't put my faith in DVD-R when they have not been around long enough to be a proven archival media and everyone knows once a DVD fails there's nothing you can do about it, at least with an HDD you can try different methods of rescue depending on the symptom.

I guess it depends on your work load. If you are only shooting a couple of hours of footage a month, then archiving to double sets of DVD or BluRay media is not such a big deal however, for those that are producing around 200GB of data a week, burning to optical media becomes somewhat impractical.

The safest and most proven method of data backup in my experience is tape based via SDLT, LTO, AIT technologies (corporate data centres still use magnetic tape to backup their data!!) however as these methods are very co$t prohibitive for the average studio, the next best thing is Hard Disk Drives however HDDs being mechanical devices need regular maintenance to ensure data integrity and that means the data needs to be moved around (refreshed).

Have no fear of HDDs and make sure you buy tried & tested brands that have a reputation for reliability like Seagate, forget those cheap Samsung drives.
 
Well I'm not normally one to forecast doom and gloom but I thought the Larry Jordan article was an interesting read. It's good to educate people about data rotation which I take to mean simply spinning up the hard drive say once a year or so. I too have a hard time trusting DVD-r's excusively, hence the triple copy solution. DLT is awesome but highly cost prohibitive to most of us small guys (remember the OP).
 
We are getting a bit off topic here, but because this is important, I'll cover it...

With data, it's important to NEVER put all your eggs into one basket. In this case, don't trust one single storage solution. It is far better and safer to have a second or better yet, a third copy of critical data.

Also, the third copy should be stored at a different location. Buildings burn down, encounter a flood, or some other thing that could wipe out your data.

Hard drives do need to be scanned every 6 months to 1 year.

Also, with hard drives and optical media, makes sure your second copy and third copy are different brands. That way should there be some sort of defect in the product, only one copy is lost.

For those interested, I addressed this in my Podcast,
Long-term Video File Storage

Friday, April 11, 2008.



Bob Diaz
 
sindrejibb said:
Hi!

I make skimovies and I feel ready to step up to the semi-pro/pro-segment. But I have no experience with these pro-cameras, so I ask here.

It can't be too expensive, so I've seen on the Canon XH-A1 and the Panasonic HMC150. Or, I've had a look on more cameras but I think these are getting good comments and they are pretty cheap to be pro-cameras. But which of these? Or do you have a completely other suggestion?

As I make skimovies, I will use this out in the snow, in the terrain. I don't care much about how it look, but it should be pretty easy to handle and what is most important to me is IMAGE QUALITY of course.
Click to expand...

I would base your decision on the following:

  1. Which camera can take the cold better? I have both but neither has been exposed to freezing temperatures. Neither will do great without a warm battery.
  2. Which camera is toughest? I would say they are about the same with extra points to the HMC150 for being tapeless. A little powder and moisture in a tape mechanism and you are done.
  3. For me, all types of skiing are long distance shots. The A1 has the longer lens for better distant shots.
  4. Which camera can handle bright snow shots better? I don't know since I just got the HMC150.
My experience has been very good shooting in bright snow conditions. You will need a CP and ND filters. HD cameras love light, and they really get it with snow. I doubt anyone knows which camera will produce better image quality in skiing conditions as the HMC150 was just released.

You have a tough call. Both are great cameras, with subtle differences.
 
Find a dealer that has them all in stock and take a trip to see them. Hold them.. play around with them.. shoot s alittle something and see if they'll let you take the footage home and check it out first. I think that's the best thing you can do... or find a couple of people locally who have them and ask to tag along and check it out..


There's so many factors to a camera and you might find something unique about one that steals it for ya..


Also don't forget the other accessories that you'll need. A decent shotgun mike, filters, extra batteries... bag and all of that. This can add up to be quite a bit extra and should be considered as well.
 
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