EOS 5D MK II workaround: Converting 30p into 24p/25p

[Emanuel]

my point was theres so much 5d stuff on this d90 subforum, shouldnt the 5d stuff be in another section. the last 5 or such threads have been about 5d rather than d90. ;P

Maybe you are right, some moderator should ship all these 5D threads over to the 'Canon Cameras' Sub-Forum.

You are both surely right. I had applied myself to be a mod here (other cameras sub-forum) a long time ago. Despite you can't find native* mods in this part of dvxuser.com -- an excellent moviemaking community since its beginning. However, Jarred is not too much in this extra mood. His business is not to support a DSLR shooters community.

* I mean, outside the DVX or HVX realm.

Another interesting fact is how much free this sub-forum is. Sometimes, it doesn't seem to be owned by one of the RED project heads. I must admit, I have read some unpleasant points, at times. We should all know, this is RED's house too.

On the other hand, the fact is D5 Mark II has immersed D90, as well, a complete new DSLR market has emerged.

Vimeo is so random sometimes, I never touch the 'privacy' settings, sometimes it makes them 'Public', sometimes 'Private' ?

Switched to 'Public' now.

:thumbsup: :laugh: I loved (still loving the blonde. Well, I should admit, I love blondes. Who is she? Your wife, girlfriend? Fishy, the pinky tone. It does effectively seem the pink disturbance that affects the film positive emulsions over a print some years old.

 

[joe 1008]

Another one . . . . it's very very very cold here in London today, so all these shots are either inside or less than 10 meters away (any further and I might not make it back and freeze to death) I might go further out tomorrow (maybe as much as 200 meters).

http://www.vimeo.com/2524276

Thank you, Lee! So, converting these two clips took you a bath? Do the british take long showers or short ones?

It looks really good. Some strobing in the bricklayer footage, do you know the exposure time? And is there any possibility to add some motion blur with Premiere? ReVision, the company that offers Twixtor has a software that adds motion blur: ReelSmart. But I don't know how good it is. With de 5D, trying to make it look perfekt, we might never get out of postproduction...

But regarding software I would like to stick with mainstream software like Apple Motion or Premiere simply to keep the expenses low.

One last word about the footage: These shots are quite simply to manage by motion tracking. I'm worried about fast, complex motion. Could you please hire a dozen kung fu fighters and shoot a short feature with them? (Or shoot in a local mall or cover a local soccer game?) I would really appreciate tricky footage!

 

[Lee Wilson]

:thumbsup: :laugh: I loved (still loving the blonde. Well, I should admit, I love blondes. Who is she? Your wife, girlfriend? Fishy, the pinky tone. It does effectively seem the pink disturbance that affects the film positive emulsions over a print some years old.

She is my girlfriend, a few seconds after saying "are you still playing with that camera?" :crybaby:


The pink is me playing around with a 'curves' filter (basically pushing the gamma of the blue channel up (lighter), yeah it does make it look a little old.

 

[Emanuel]

She is my girlfriend, a few seconds after saying "are you still playing with that camera?" :crybaby:


The pink is me playing around with a 'curves' filter (basically pushing the gamma of the blue channel up (lighter), yeah it does make it look a little old.

They both look hot indeed!

Might you add some other tests for distinct situations. It should be very interesting. Actually, you are the 1st one doing this worldwide.

 

[mattsand]

i wouldn't call 10 meters from his house worldwide, not even 200 meters, and you're supposed to be a globetrotter, or at least eurotrotter?

/matt

 

[Lee Wilson]

Thank you, Lee! So, converting these two clips took you a bath? Do the british take long showers or short ones?

It only took a few minutes (10-15??).

After Effects 7 - Mac OS X 10.4.11 - 2 x 2 GHz = around 10-15 minutes (for the builder clip)

I am sure the newest After Effects Pro + OS X 10.5 + one of the newer 8 x 3.2 GHz Macs would be much much faster.

It looks really good. Some strobing in the bricklayer footage

Can't see that myself ? Although I don't doubt you as I like I said it's just a bit of point and shoot on auto exposure (not locked).

do you know the exposure time?

Switch on > Press the LiveView button > Point it at the fella doing the brickwork > Press 'Go' ! (SET)

That is what I know !

And is there any possibility to add some motion blur with Premiere? ReVision, the company that offers Twixtor has a software that adds motion blur: ReelSmart. But I don't know how good it is. With de 5D, trying to make it look perfekt, we might never get out of postproduction...

After Effects 'Timewarp' (basically the same code that does the clever time stretching) does very very good motion blur.

It's a great way to do motion tracking - shoot at a high shutter speed (I am talking about my HV30 here not the 5D2 ! So we are talking 1/2000th) - stabilize or motion track the pin sharp footage - then add motion blur.

But regarding software I would like to stick with mainstream software like Apple Motion or Premiere simply to keep the expenses low.

I am sure they all use very similar maths to do their trickery.

I would really appreciate tricky footage!

Good god, my work never ends, I have given you loads of people on a bridge - will that count as 'complex'.:zombie_smiley:

 

[Emanuel]

i wouldn't call 10 meters from his house worldwide, not even 200 meters, and you're supposed to be a globetrotter, or at least eurotrotter?

/matt

Eurotrotter? I'm still waiting for him here in Paris. And you Mattias, are you coming? :laugh:

As matter of fact, Lee is already wordwide famous -- dvxuser.com is a worldwide community. Line-stepping killer, Lord of the Conversions. He's going well indeed. I am his fan.

 

[Lee Wilson]

Might you add some other tests for distinct situations.

Here's the thing . . . .

The reason I am not too bothered about doing lots of tests is because I know between time stretching and slowing the footage down it is fairly straightforward to convert 30p to 25p successfully.

There will be some scenes that cause glitches and artefacts, but I would simply go in and manually mask and manipulate the problem areas.

The tests I have shown you are simply thrown in and rendered - all the many many parameters and controls are never touched, so if you have the time you can play around with these to tune your conversion.

It should be very interesting. Actually, you are the 1st one doing this worldwide.

That is something I am not proud of. :crybaby:

 

[Lee Wilson]

Eurotrotter? I'm still waiting for him here in Paris. And you Mattias, are you coming? :laugh:

As matter of fact, Lee is already wordwide famous -- dvxuser.com is a worldwide community. Line-stepping killer, Lord of the Conversions. He's going well indeed. I am his fan.

Excellent ! Is there a fan club . . .


. . and can I join ? :2vrolijk_08:

 

[Emanuel]

It's a great way to do motion tracking - shoot at a high shutter speed (I am talking about my HV30 here not the 5D2 ! So we are talking 1/2000th) - stabilize or motion track the pin sharp footage - then add motion blur.

Shouldn't it be shot as close to 1/48 or 1/50 shutter as possible?

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=1494040&highlight=1/48th#post1494040

 

[Lee Wilson]

Shouldn't it be shot as close to 1/48 or 1/50 shutter as possible?

No.

Shooting a very high shutter speed freezes the image with no motion blur - making motion tracking (and other compositing) very easy.

Once you have done your tracking/stabilizing/compositing - you can then add the motion blur back in to make it look like 1/48.

 

[joe 1008]

Excellent ! Is there a fan club . . .


. . and can I join ? :2vrolijk_08:

I didn't forget the bridge footage. Considerme as the first member of the club!

And the strobing of the bricklayer footage ist due to a fast shutter IMO. But it's not that bad. I'm just in my half paranoic artefact mode: Strobing, aliasing and jelly everywhere!!! rogar-Love(DBG):

 

[Lee Wilson]

I didn't forget the bridge footage. Considerme as the first member of the club!

Well then can I be the second ?

Do we get badges or stickers or anything ?

 

[mattsand]

Eurotrotter? I'm still waiting for him here in Paris.

yeah, you're the eurotrotter, he only goes 10 meters from his house. which is why i found it surprising that you said he was doing his tests globally.

i'm coming to paris on saturday btw, staying until the 28th.

/matt

 

[Emanuel]

No.

Shooting a very high shutter speed freezes the image with no motion blur - making motion tracking (and other compositing) very easy.

Once you have done your tracking/stabilizing/compositing - you can then add the motion blur back in to make it look like 1/48.

Don't you agree with this colleague of yours, then?

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=1494040&highlight=1/48th#post1494040

The answer comes here:


«You make it sound so easy! If only it was..

I work in Visual effects, and I've been working in the field for years. I've personally worked with most major compositing packages over this time. Shake and Nuke both have optical flow methods and both are very good (we use them mainly to retime shots, make them longer etc.) and for certain shots, you would be hard pressed to tell it wasn't originally shot like that.

BUT, in order for optical flow to work successfully at all, you have to have footage that lends itself to be retimed nicely in the first place. A good example of a shot that is horrible for retiming, is a crowd shot from waist level stacked on top of eachother. The algorithm to calculate the motion vectors that optical flow uses, will have a hard time tracking what belongs to what, creating artifacts in the rendered frames. This is but one example, many shots with countering motion between parallaxing objects are headaches to deal with.

(...)

Taking my notes above, my point is that software will only work when the footage is agreeable. And even then, it isn't quite the same as film with a 180 degree shutter.. But certain types of shots work much better than others.

I also want to note, that not all 30p footage is the same. The motion blur from standard film is about 2 times faster than 24p, so about 1/48th second per frame. This creates the familiar motion blur we associate with "film". Many 30p sources are shot at faster shutters, creating more crisp "video" looking footage, like Vincent Laforet's latest short film "Reverie". That's the main reason it still looked like video, as beautiful as it was.

30p shot at a shutter speed of 1/48th would be much closer to a film look than using the shutter that they had used at but with 24p output. 24p AND 1/48th are necessary for the look.

Back to the topic, my point here is that to achieve a "film" look, and not just convert video footage to different frame rates, you need to capture the footage the real way. Software as you pointed out, can help, but they are limited and need a lot going for them to be truly successful.»


~ Nordin [ LINK for profile] http://rahhali.com


EDIT -- Here's the link:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=29497059

 

[Lee Wilson]

I'm coming to paris on saturday btw, staying until the 28th.

/matt

This is another bloody fan club meeting I have not been invited to . . . again !

 

[Lee Wilson]

Don't you agree with this colleague of yours, then.

Whether I agree with him or not is irrelevant.

I am saying that for motion tracking / stabilizing - a very high shutter speed is very useful.

He is saying that for a filmic look a 180deg shutter angle is desirable, which is great (and correct) - but what does that have to do with what I am saying ?


:zombie_smiley: (no need for this smiley, I just like it)

 

[Emanuel]

Whether I agree with him or not is irrelevant.

I am saying that for motion tracking / stabilizing - a very high shutter speed is very useful.

He is saying that for a filmic look a 180deg shutter angle is desirable, which is great (and correct) - but what does that have to do with what I am saying ?

It is relevant 'cause the common territoire I can find between both of you is the 180 degrees. He's saying 1/48th for a good 24fps conversion, though.

180 degrees @30p is 1/60th shutter. But you're referring high shutter speeds. Such as?

I am not as sure as I'd like and want to be.

 

[Lee Wilson]

It is relevant 'cause the common territoire I can find between both of you is the 180 degrees.

No really, it is irrelevant !

He is talking about what is good for a filmic look (a shutter speed close to a film cameras 180 degree angle or 1/48th @ 24fps).

I am talking about what is useful for motion tracking/stabilizing (a high shutter speed like 1/2000th to freeze motion).

He is taking about a good way to impart a nice soft filmic motion blur onto the footage, I am talking about how to completely avoid motion blur.

And 1/2000th is around 5.4 degrees by the way - not 180 degrees, so no common territory at all, honestly !!

:zombie_smiley::zombie_smiley:

 

[Emanuel]

No really, it is irrelevant !

He is talking about what is good for a filmic look (a shutter speed close to a film cameras 180 degree angle or 1/48th @ 24fps).

I am talking about what is useful for motion tracking/stabilizing (a high shutter speed like 1/2000th to freeze motion).

He is taking about a good way to impart a nice soft filmic motion blur onto the footage, I am talking about how to completely avoid motion blur.

And 1/2000th is around 5.4 degrees by the way - not 180 degrees, so no common territory at all, honestly !!

I see your both smileys... LOL

On topic, you are right. Different approaches indeed.

Wouldn't you suggest the low speed then?

In this case, since the video seems to be limited to the 1/30th and 1/125th, what would it be your suggestion?

Is a 125th shutter enough?

Or is a higher shutter speed strictly necessary for a good 24fps conversion?
What is the sweet spot in your opinion?


PS:
Should I quote your zombies smileys too or aren't they strictly necessary?