Specs changes...

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and here it goes...

RedFormats2.jpg


You know, I was going to make more changes but then I realized that everything else is perfectly sufficient.

Assuming that 1080p is 4:4:4 and at or beyond the compression quality of the 4k REDCODE images, I'd be more than fine working with scaled 1080p scaled footage from the 35mm window instead of 2k. The, as previously mentioned, 12% resolution difference won't matter that much.

As for things I would like to have, I'll start with the yellow circle.

REDCODE oboard use of the S35 frame
I don't know how hard it is to scale 2540p to 4k in camera but I'd really like to have the option of using REDCODE 4k from the S35 sensor. Reason being simply to reduce the crop factor on my lenses.
If I recall correctly, the 35mm frame(minus the widescreen crop) is just slightly smaller than the DX format sensor on the Nikon cameras(23.6 as opposed to 22.2 on the RED), and the Nikon has a crop factor of x1.5. The crop factor for a Nikon lens on the RED for the 35mm frame is ~1.6. The crop factor for the same lens over the S35 frame is 1.45.
Any time I can work with less of a crop factor on a lens, I'll take it. When I buy my Nikon set, I'm going to have to use a 35mm prime if I want a 50mm image. More precisely, for the S35 frame I'll have a 50.75mm lens and for the 35mm frame I'll have a 56mm lens.

It would be great to have 2540p scalable for onboard 4k REDCODE recording just so that I can avoid this additional crop factor, and I understand that this camera was built for S35 lenses and using photography lenses is just a bonus. I believe though that this same concern applies to PL mount film lenses; preserving the most minimum crop factor possible for shooting is important for me so that I'll have more creative options, seeing that I'll be working with an external deck very minimally and I think that the 2540p resolution is a bit excessive for my needs. :D



2k at 120p onboard

The other yellow mark I made was under the 2k mode which lists 60p as being the maximum onboard framerate for REDCODE at this resolution.
I'm gonna' do some math; We'll use REDCODE's 4k 30p as a starting point. A 2k image uses 1/4 the pixels of a 4k image, which means that conceivably the two images could be compressed to an identical quality with the 2k image being 1/4 the file size of a 4k image. Therefore, since at this point REDCODE 2k can go up to 60p, this would calculate out to half the data rate of 4k@30p. If you then allowed for 2k REDCODE to go to 120p this would double the data rate again bringing 2k@120p to the same datarate as 4k@30p.
Conceivably then, shouldn't it be within the capabilities of the camera's processor to record 2k REDCODE @ 120p onboard since 4k@30p would send the exact same amount of image data through the processor and it compresses the image at exactly the same quality.

The main reason I would vouch for this, obviously, is so that I could record 120p onboard in 2k mode. It would use up exactly the same amount of space as 4k footage, but at least I'd be able to get that ultra slow-mo in-camera as opposed to require a deck on set.


those are my thoughts...cheers:beer:
 
Rob Lohman said:
As others have indicated: you cannot do scaling in RAW, only in RGB. When shooting RAW you either record the full sensor or you window (crop) it.
Click to expand...

ah, got it. well that does present a problem for my theory, now doesn't it. :0
 
Omar Saad said:
I think I could have been mistaken, but I was under the impression that under the previous specs you could go 2k windowed and get 120fps recorded straight to the red drive or the mini raid drive. If that was indeed part of the previous specs that I would cast my vote to definately bring it back if possible. Everything else looks great...I will gladly shoot redcode 4k and use redcine to scale down or do whatever else I'm going to do that is format related

:dankk2:
Omar
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2k @ 120 fps out of the RAW data port, that is still there. It was never recordable on the magazine with REDCODE.

FatBird: indeed, that will definitely rule out your #1 wish. Now you can always hope for #2 :)
 
I suspect that the extra image data created in 2540p is too much for the internal compression processor to handle.

If S35/2540p REDCODE RAW is impossible to do in camera [which it must be, as they would include it if it was possible], I can only hope for an external box that could handle the compression. Some sort of high-end mini RAID with its own compression processor that takes 2540p uncompressed RAW data from the optical RAW port, compresses it to 2540p REDCODE RAW and saves it [even at a higher data rate... 50MB/s] onto this device's drives. I'm just hoping that there is a way to shoot S35mm equivalent without having to shoot uncompressed RAW. Even if this device cost $5,000... it'd be worth it.

This is just a pipe dream... at least for now. Hell, we know that parts of the camera are upgradable - maybe when a better compression processor is created it'll be an upgrade that camera owners can perform. I'll be happy with 4K/35mm REDCODE RAW for now. :laugh:
 
Is anyone considering shooting film for 4K super slo-mo shots ?

I think it may be a nice option for narrative features - one day rental + small amount of processing.

Just my 3 pence worth.



EDIT : Uk humour. :p
 
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so is there any change in for cine lenses between the S35 sensor area versus 35mm?

i.e. - is a 14mm a 14mm in both shooting options? Or is it magnified?
 
Of course, there is magnification though slight. See the open thread & poll out there and participate where [LINK] you can tell us what's your opinion and needs. :dankk2:
 
I'm curious as to why 2K RGB has been dropped. Any explanations put forward by the Red team would be appreciated. We are a very understanding bunch after all :)

If the frame rate limitation could be solved, nobody will miss 2k. For me the only reason not to shoot 4K redcode is the 30fps limit. Maybe I'm beating a dead horse here? Fingers crossed.
 
ZaneIsNumber1 said:
I'm curious as to why 2K RGB has been dropped. Any explanations put forward by the Red team would be appreciated. We are a very understanding bunch after all :)

If the frame rate limitation could be solved, nobody will miss 2k. For me the only reason not to shoot 4K redcode is the 30fps limit. Maybe I'm beating a dead horse here? Fingers crossed.
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I think it's because 2k RGB takes up a lot more space than 2k RAW and they wanted to preserve conformity and keep it to a single 2k format rather than two.

just my guess...
 
Is it me? Or it doesn't make sense...

2k RGB could be scaled from the full resolution of the sensor: 11.5 megapixels.

2k RAW doesn't. It's just less than 2.4 megapixels... A small part of the sensor. If 2k RAW can't be scaled only cropped.

Then, is this Red a 24, 25 or 30fps 4k camera from a 9.4 megapixels sensor area?

Or a 2k camera from a 2.4 megapixels sensor area? (the same resolution than the Silicon Imaging / Cineform camera?)

Edit: Is it so necessary to save storage at 2k when the camera will also record 4k?

60fps from 11.5 megapixels isn't the same than 2.4 megapixels...

Still, how much would this 60fps 2k footage be in a daily basis? 5%, 10%? Less? Then, why not 2k RGB?

It doesn't make sense.​
 
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LOL

Non native english doesn't make sense at all. Maybe RED does. I guess there are other reasons for the 2K RAW instead the 2K RGB on board. Less data. And hardware limitations.
 
Another question!

We had previously been told that onboard recording of 2k RGB would be scaled from the 4k frame and onboard 1080p would be cropped from the scaled 2k. This would have reduced the field of view in 1080p mode.

Given scaled 2k is no more, will the 1080p be scaled from the 4k frame (and keep the same fied of view)?

Thanks!
 
If you look at the table, 1080p RGB @ up to 60fps is available either scaled from the 4k frame (possibly with a small crop to give 2:1 scaling?) or cropped. Thus you can still get 35mm DoF at 1080p. If you record your 1080p RGB at 12 bit linear, which it appears you can, then you also maintain most of the benefits of RAW.

Nick
 
Given the fact the 1080p RGB is scaled from the 4K and the 2K RAW doesn't, my doubt:

[for slow motion purposes from the 60fps onboard]
1080p RGB better choice than 2K RAW?

I can imagine to shoot 4K...

...and for the slow motion sequences: 1080 RGB scaled from 4K (having the native res and the DOF 35mm as reference),
uprezing again such slow motion sequences (just those) for 4K online editing (coupled to the major 4K footage).

Any thoughts?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emanuel
The windowed alternative will give you the inconvenience of the magnification factor.


The magnification factor is really desirable for shooting sports, nature, and many other genres. If we were using the RED S35mm 18-85 zoom as the interview and creative b-roll camera, even with the magnification factor, FOV should be fine. On the sports coverage or nature camera, using the RED 300mm, the magnification factor would be quite welcome. If you needed to get even greater focal lengths, you could also use a 2x between the camera and the 300mm lens.
__________________
Gibby
RED One cameras #8 and #700
RED 18-85mm, RED 300mm, various primes, various Nikon lenses, various B4 2/3" lenses, rental account waiting...
v
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I take it that the Raw data port would be the red flash? That this would allow 120fps? Will the recording options allow both red flash and the red drive to be both recording at once?

Also D & G and Emanuel, i sympathise with you on the scaling front particularly when wanting to use the cheaper still lenses. But you know what, Those in my situation who want the image quality of red but desire deeper DOF also have an expensive route to achieve our aims.

The red zoom 18mm-85mm will be great for my s35mm footage and will do a reasonable amount of usage in windowed 2k Raw. But the 18mm will be magnified to 36mm ( approx) in 2k windowed mode. So i am stuck between choosing the varsatility of the red zoom but with no wide angle useage on 2k windowed mode (unless you consider 36mm wide enough?) or splashing out on a second hand quality s16mm zoom for around $6,000 -$8,000 but miss out on the great image quality of the full sensor by being restricted to s16mm format and also low light performance poorer in s16mm than s35mm. My only other option is to go with a s16mm 11 or 12mm prime lens, but you are still paying over $1,000 second hand.

It would be great to have the red lens starting at 12mm but it would weigh a ton and cost a bomb:(

I think that was what Greg Lowry was meaning when he posted many months ago about the true cost of red and people not taking into account the lenses. To cover everything either of us want to do is unlikely to be cheap.

Steve (or others) on the red zoom, apart from close up work where the use of 36mm is limited to a shallower DOF do you feel 36mm is actually quite reasonable in FOV. A lot of my work that involves boats in water will see me about 15ft distance to subject. Ive looked about for a visual comparison but so far no joy.

ps it's ironic that the red 300mm prime might possibly be the more versatile of the two lenses for my use!
:dankk2: Michael
 
mike the beginner said:
Also D & G and Emanuel, i sympathise with you on the scaling front particularly when wanting to use the cheaper still lenses. But you know what, Those in my situation who want the image quality of red but desire deeper DOF also have an expensive route to achieve our aims...
:dankk2: Michael
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Good points Mike :)

For me, it's more about using smooth slo mo with 4K. Maybe in a narrative production we'd be possibly be using only 1-5% of the final film for slo mo footage - we're not planning on shooting Johm Woo epics here ;). Thus, it's not a huge deal on the long list of "needs" for the camera, and I completely understand where the RED team is coming from. I ceretainly hope they don't take anything I've posted except for constructive discussion. I've always been an advocate of the tool for the job and realize that to get any result you want there are going to have to be choices made, in each and every department - from choosing a Briese light to a practical.

What is obvious is that the RED team are focusing on what the camera does best - deliver a digital negative at an amazing price. As a businessman and artist; it's what I've been waiting for. As a long time renter; it should say a lot that this is the first camera that we'll be purchasing. Why ? Because it's on "our dime" now. And that belief shown in this camera hasn't changed.


This will be one of those instances where I'll have to rent either a) a deck or b) shoot film. It's not going to be totally cost prohibitive either way. Everyone is going to have to design the camera around their needs, and make the necessary adjustments. I'm cool with that. But, I'm going to be honest about wanting the slo mo capability. Who knows ? 1080p RGB may suit my needs fine.

I realize that Jim and team took a very different tack by allowing us all in on the development process, and I sincerely hope that they understand how exrtremely grateful I am they did so. They could have sat back and waited until the camera specs and workflow was completely finalized and said "take it or leave it". The fact is, they didn't. They allowed us users to advocate for features that we deem useful, needed, wanted, and just downright crazy :laugh:

Ok, so I've made my advocacy for certain features clear. Thanks to the RED team for all your hard work. Look forward to Spikes reveal and her footage. Your renders prove how she's sprucing up gorgeous. I think we've got a classic on our hands here. :beer:


RED# vive la resolution
 
Hey Mike-

If the new specs hold, and we shoot 2k RAW, if we need a wider field of view, we may need to use wide converter lenses (Century, etc.) on the front of S35mm, 35mm, and S16mm lenses.

For your fishing shows shot in 2k RAW, with the on-boat camera having a RED 18-85mm zoom with a wide converter (full zoom through) for creative shots, interviews, and coverage of nearby boats, you should be fine. A wide S16mm zoom would also work. A wide 35mm still zoom, if you have a decent follow focus made for still lens use, may work. If you decide to shoot 1080p RGB, a wide 2/3" B4 HD ENG zoom may also work for that type of show. The RED 18-85mm should give you the best glass of those options - something to consider.

I've used good quality wide converter lenses on the front of my lenses for years now. It adds a little weight on the front of the rig, which you need to compensate for in the weight & balance of the rig, usually by counterbalancing with weight on the back (battery/drive), and sliding the camera back on the shoulder brace or sliding the quickmount plate backward in tripod configurations.

You need to understand that RED One, as a digital cinema camera and adaptable EFP camera, wasn't designed primarily for doing fishing shows, so even though you can adapt the camera to effectively shoot that genre, there are some natural limitations involved. Your shows have similar challenges to many of the shows I produce, and there are many multi-genre shooters who will go through a learning curve in how to best use RED One for each of the genres they shoot. You're learning a lot about RED One now, but the real learning will come when you use RED One on location. I think you'll do just fine in adapting RED One to your genre of productions, and then why not also spread you production genres to other styles and genres to maximize the earning potential of your RED One? Food for thought...
 
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