C300: Zacuto First Look at the Canon 18-80 Zoom Lens

I generally agree with you Ned but I include the 17-55 2.8 IS as the general lens "included" with my camera. I charge $75.00 per day to bring the 70-200 2.8 IS II lens as it is a longer speciality lens. While it would take a long time to recoup the costs, I feel I could charge my clients an extra $100.00 for the Canon 18-80 and they would pay for it. I could ask them, "Are you okay with our standard handheld lens or would you like to use a higher end lens with servo zoom?" For certain projects, especially b-roll or handheld interviews, a servo lens is invaluable. I would show them a picture of each lens. Guess it just depends on your market and clients, but my clients would be willing to pay a bit more for a $6,500.00 lens versus an $850.00 lens, they understand the glass versus $$ equation.

As far as the RED equation, wow, those are some terrible business people, giving away a $40k or $50k camera package for free.
 
All of these kids giving it away for free is a huge part of what's wrong with this industry now and why it's getting harder to make money like we used to. We've all heard the stories for years now. People out in CA and NY(mostly CA) basically working for free just to work, so the clients have gotten used to being able to get everything including the kitchen sink for nothing. Where I live, our rates, at least among those of us in the higher end of the production circle, are where they should be(but like everywhere else, we're constantly getting pushed and it's only a matter of time before we're back down to SD rates or worse), but we get calls from people from LA and NY and they are taken aback a lot of times when they hear our rates, because they are used to guys tripping over themselves to give them the world for what we charge just for labor(or slightly more).

A good friend of mine has lots of good stories from 'out of towners' calling. He got a call from a production company wanting to shoot something out here, so he quotes them his rate and they gave the ole, "What?! We can bring in our guy from LA with his gear cheaper than that." So my buddy tells them to go ahead. "Buy him a round trip plane ticket, get him a rental car, hotel and ship all his gear out here and back and tell me if it's still cheaper." Another good one that happened recently was from a reality show that called him wanting to shoot the sit-down interviews. They wanted to pay, I believe it was, $400-$500 a day for camera and audio. His response to the production coordinator was, "Oh, I thought you wanted a PROFESSIONAL crew." Needles to say, I don't think the PC ever responded. But I'm sure they found someone that did it for that rate. And if it had been LA, I'm sure they would have found someone with a RED Dragon and case of Arri Master Primes to do it for that rate. ; )
 
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400-500$ for camera and audio?!?! Wow! That's what I charge (500$) for myself only with basic equipment (camera, lenses, tripod, one mic) and I don't work on highend stuff...I work on small corporate videos and very small budget documentaries.

Puredrifting, depends on the clients...my clients wouldn't understand me charging 100$ more for a servo lens...it would take me an hour to explain the differences between the 2 lenses, and even then they wouldn't even care. But, if I believe that a crane shot (or drone) would make a huge difference on a given project, it's easier to sell them a jib or drone than a lens. Jsut depends who is your client(s).
 
Yes, it definitely depends on your clients and the projects. My main client would totally get it because I have conditioned them over the years that we get what we pay for as far as gear and we rented the 70-200 2.8 IS II and the 100-400 IS for trips to Africa shooting for TV. So when I told them I was tired of renting the 70-200 2.8 IS II and I bought it, they are fine with me adding $50.00 to $75.00 ea. shoot for it. But this client is in the entertainment business and has hired lots of different crews at different levels so they get gear and gear rental rates. I have some other corporate clients who might not get it or wouldn't pay for it. I am really intrigued by the Fuji 18-80 but at this point, I am shooting with a 1080 camera, the C100 MKI so if I am going to buy a big piece of gear in 2017, it will probably be a C300 MKII or C100 MKIII when it comes out. The 18-80 will stay a rental for me for now.
 
back to talking about the zacuto's accessories....

doesn't anybody find weird that Canon did not include a lens support solution directly with the lens ? Or at least, a 1/4" or 3/8" thread ?
I mean, why would it even need a lens support if the brand that manufactured it did not design something in that purpose ?
 
coutard said:
back to talking about the zacuto's accessories....

doesn't anybody find weird that Canon did not include a lens support solution directly with the lens ? Or at least, a 1/4" or 3/8" thread ?
I mean, why would it even need a lens support if the brand that manufactured it did not design something in that purpose ?
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No other Canon lenses include it unless you count the tripod ring on the pro zoom still lenses? You can get one on Amazon for under $20.00, no big deal that they didn't include it.
 
Back when the C300 Mark II was $16k, I was doing $1200 as a day rate with me, camera, L-series lenses, and tripod (audio, lighting, Steadicam, is priced extra). Then the C300 Mark II dropped to $12k, so I lowered my rate to $1100. Now, if I'm adding in an 18-80 with my base lens package, I have justification for upping my day rate back to $1200. I have around $10k of L-series, Sigma, and Tokina glass, so I'm typically having that account for $150-$250 of my day rate; sometimes I'll line item the lens package, other times I'll include its pricing with the camera package.

I'm sure some clients I'd add the 18-80 in without charging extra for it, but I can also see a lot of clients I could charge extra for it, whether I mention specifically if I'm charging extra for it or not. Most of the time a client just asks me my day rate, and I give it to them, listing what gear is included with that rate based on either what gear they tell me they need or what gear I think they'll need (if they're not gear savvy and don't know). More gear I have (that they could actually benefit from), higher rate I can quote and feel justified quoting that rate.

I do a lot of event and doc style shooting and of course that clientele isn't going to want my Canon 15.5-47 T/2.8 cinema zoom lens, so I'm not going to quote that in my package for those types of shoots. But the 18-80, I can sure quote that in there for those types of shoots since it benefits the client.

So yeah, I see this lens as an excuse to raise my day rate by probably $100.

Aside from that, it enables me to get shots and do shoots that require what this lens offers, so opens up some additional clientele, while improving the quality of my work and my clients' satisfaction. A lot of my clients lately are from job sites like ProductionHub where they're looking at other potential people to hire as well, so having the best gear also helps with getting hired. I suspect over the next year or two this lens will become somewhat known among producers.

The servo isn't actually what most excites me about this lens; I'd probably only have the servo piece on 10-20% of the time. I'm more excited about parfocal, smooth manual zooming, not getting darker when zoomed in, manual iris, improved image quality, and the 18-80 range which I think will be more useful than the 24-105 range.

With that said, I think I'll take Ned's advice and cancel my pre-order. May be better to wait and see how the lens performs, and I kind of want to pay off my car loan too. One annoyance I've found with pre-ordering is you never know when your credit card is suddenly going to get charged. B&H also now lists this lens as non-returnable, which it didn't say when I pre-ordered it; I wonder if that would still make me eligible for returns since I pre-ordered before it listed it as non-returnable. I'm thinking I should probably buy this lens from a distributor that offers returns within the typical 30 day period.
 
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I'm considering buying the Wooden Camera Shoulder Mount V2 setup. I have the Zacuto setup (with the older baseplate) and don't like it. So many pieces, takes a long time to setup, takes a long time to take the camera on and off of it, and the rods aren't strong for supporting a heavy camera load. The new setup they show here has (yet another accessory) a new side handle grip bar that isn't rod based, but if you wanted a dual handle setup like I do when a first AC is pulling focus, then the second handle would be attached via rods. The Wooden Camera setup may not look as sexy, but I feel it is much more streamlined for quick setups and changing setups quickly.

Zacuto's lens support lacking height adjustment is a big flaw as I see it. So it only works with height adjustable baseplate rod setups? I assume it's not a standardized height for various baseplates. What a pain. I hope another lens support option becomes available. Though, it's not that heavy of a lens, so you could probably get away without lens support most of the time, or use a generic lens support which doesn't screw into the lens.


puredrifting said:
I am really intrigued by the Fuji 18-80
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This one?: http://www.abelcine.com/store/ARRI-Fujinon-Alura-18-80mm-T2.6-Zoom/#tabs

A nice focal range as an alternative to the Canon 15.5-47 and Canon 30-105, for example, but at 10.4 lbs for the weight of the lens, it looses intrigue for me.
 
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If I can chime on on the general gear talk.

What Ned described was a situation - using a hypothetical number assignment - where the market was small enough that only those with the 4th and 5th (1 being the lowest, 5 the highest) levels of competency were gainfully employed. Nowadays, the market can also accommodate levels 2 and 3 and, if a client decides that 3 does the trick, he isn't going to be able to pay 4 and 5 rates. The long term problem for many current shooters is that the entry costs have gotten so low compared to the 16mm film era, the competition can get to that 3-4 tier after some time in the industry and that will suppress the rates even further.

The music industry is a good barometer and a predictor for the video biz. In the acoustic days, being a singer required a powerful voice (along with other traits) that very few had. Microphones made pretty much anyone capable of carrying a melody a decent singer. Auto-Tune made pretty much everyone a singer.

PS. Speaking of the music industry and, as Run&Gun alluded to, LA - many an aspiring rock band had to "pay to play"* in top Strip venues back in the day (and probably still, though I haven't been keeping in touch).

*"Pay to play" tasked bands with selling X-number of tickets for their appearances. If they couldn't do that, the money had to come out of their own pockets. The upward career trajectory usually led from the Valley midweek to the Valley weekends to the Hollywood midweek to the Hollywood weekends. By that time, a smarter group would accumulate a decent black book of fans, who would be instantly contacted whenever the boys (and sometimes, girls) had a high profile gig in town.
 
puredrifting said:
No other Canon lenses include it unless you count the tripod ring on the pro zoom still lenses? You can get one on Amazon for under $20.00, no big deal that they didn't include it.
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Well, kinda comparing apples to oranges, but the 17-120 is threaded under the front barrel and comes with an adapter/spacer for support, if you choose to use it. The 50-1,000,000, too ; )
 
Eric, just curious as to why you would pre-emptively lower your rate just because the selling/purchase price of your camera dropped from when you bought it. An original C300 can be had for significantly less than even the sale price of the mkII, now, and I still charge the same rate for mine that I did when it was brand new four years ago. Actually have one client that pays slightly more, now.

Should we just charge for our labor only after our gear is paid off? It's kind of the same thing...

I really don't mean to bust your stones, just trying to understand.
 
Eric Coughlin said:
With that said, I think I'll take Ned's advice and cancel my pre-order. May be better to wait and see how the lens performs, and I kind of want to pay off my car loan too. One annoyance I've found with pre-ordering is you never know when your credit card is suddenly going to get charged. B&H also now lists this lens as non-returnable, which it didn't say when I pre-ordered it; I wonder if that would still make me eligible for returns since I pre-ordered before it listed it as non-returnable. I'm thinking I should probably buy this lens from a distributor that offers returns within the typical 30 day period.
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Something like that, I'd probably buy from a specialty dealer. I buy tons from B&H: all of my dslr's, almost all of my still lenses, tons of grip and lighting, etc... But some things I want to buy from people that REALLY know the stuff and how to take care of US and our unique and special needs in this crazy business. I just bought the 17-120 and B&H sales and stocks it and I could have gotten it just as easily from them as AbelCine, but Abel QC'd and checked MY lens before it shipped to me and I have a sales rep that I've known personally for a decade that I can call or text pretty much anytime if I need help, have a question or an emergency with gear arises.
 
Run&Gun said:
Eric, just curious as to why you would pre-emptively lower your rate just because the selling/purchase price of your camera dropped from when you bought it. An original C300 can be had for significantly less than even the sale price of the mkII, now, and I still charge the same rate for mine that I did when it was brand new four years ago. Actually have one client that pays slightly more, now.

Should we just charge for our labor only after our gear is paid off? It's kind of the same thing...

I really don't mean to bust your stones, just trying to understand.
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I think places like Lensrentals kind of dictate what we can charge for gear rental, and LensRentals lowers their rental prices when the camera sale price goes down. It makes sense, if you think about it. One may have charged $250 for a DVX100 rental back when the camera was a $4000 camera, but now that it's a $300 camera on Ebay, the rental on it would only be like $20. I don't recall the original rental price of the C300 Mark I, but the rental rate of the C300 Mark II when it first came out was around $600 for one day on LensRentals, so since both the Mark I and Mark II started at $16k, I'd gather the Mark I rented for about the same. Now the Mark I is a $7,000 camera, so if you you're commonly still getting $600 on the rental for just the camera alone, I'd be surprised.

Whether or not the gear is paid off by the owner/op seems irrelevant to me. What's important is the market value of the camera, and the camera's sale price going down lowers the market value. But if one can still get a $250 rental on a DVX100 because they have clients that aren't aware of it becoming devalued, then I guess go for it. If a past client came to me and expected the same rate as last time, I guess I may not feel the need to tell them my rate has lowered due to the camera value going down (or maybe I would; I'd have to think about it). But for new clients, I'd give a rental rate the reflects the current value of the equipment I'm bringing. It doesn't matter how much I paid for it some time ago; it matters how much it is currently worth.

I think I also wasn't getting much work with the C300 Mark II at the higher rate, as at $16k a lot of people seemed to feel it was overpriced (and thus rental rates were overpriced as well), so many of my clients would opt for my C100 packages instead. More recently I've been getting more work with the C300 Mark II booked specifically, but that could also be because I've been marketing it more in the past few months. I do think the camera is gaining popularity more now that it's price is more reachable, and not as far off from the FS7 and FS7 Mark II.

That's another nice thing about the 18-80; it's a lens that can be used on a variety of shoots, won't decrease in value as quickly as a camera, so thus can add to your day rate for a longer period of time.
 
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Eric Coughlin said:
I'm considering buying the Wooden Camera Shoulder Mount V2 setup. I have the Zacuto setup (with the older baseplate) and don't like it. So many pieces, takes a long time to setup, takes a long time to take the camera on and off of it, and the rods aren't strong for supporting a heavy camera load. The new setup they show here has (yet another accessory) a new side handle grip bar that isn't rod based, but if you wanted a dual handle setup like I do when a first AC is pulling focus, then the second handle would be attached via rods. The Wooden Camera setup may not look as sexy, but I feel it is much more streamlined for quick setups and changing setups quickly.
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Eric- While not for everyone, "streamline", low on my shoulder, and ready to shoot out of the bag is what I went for with my setup:

IMG_9209.jpg

My setup is darn close to a beta cam / ENG camera. I can choose between the wooden handles you see pictured or the standard Sony control grip which I position with the arm horizontal so that the grip is located roughly where the servo grip would be on a B4 zoom. The camera can be placed upright on the ground, there are no protruding arms that require building or potentially obstruct camera placements, and everything is somewhat , minimalist, compact and straightforward. No "frankencam" / "robocam" setup which the Zacuto rig featured in the video in this thread ventures into. Take it out of the bag, power up, shoot. The only time that anything is ever detached is when I swap out lenses or the battery. Again, not for everyone.
 
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puredrifting said:
No other Canon lenses include it unless you count the tripod ring on the pro zoom still lenses? You can get one on Amazon for under $20.00, no big deal that they didn't include it.
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Canon cn-E 17-120 has a thread underneath to screw a lens support that stands on the rods.
Meaning, this lens needs it.
If there's is nothin on the 18-80, why put something ?
 
JPNola said:
Eric- While not for everyone, "streamline", low on my shoulder, and ready to shoot out of the bag is what I went for with my setup:

View attachment 119222

My setup is darn close to a beta cam / ENG camera. I can choose between the wooden handles you see pictured or the standard Sony control grip which I position with the arm horizontal so that the grip is located roughly where the servo grip would be on a B4 zoom. The camera can be placed upright on the ground, there are no protruding arms that require building or potentially obstruct camera placements, and everything is somewhat , minimalist, compact and straightforward. No "frankencam" / "robocam" setup which the Zacuto rig featured in the video in this thread ventures into. Take it out of the bag, power up, shoot. The only time that anything is ever detached is when I swap out lenses or the battery. Again, not for everyone.
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Nice ! What is this double handgrip ? I too like it close to the rods.
But I think this setup works because you have the battery counterbalancing everything.
Same baseplate with a c100/c300 would be too front heavy
That's the idea of the zacuto rig
 
JPNola said:
Eric- While not for everyone, "streamline", low on my shoulder, and ready to shoot out of the bag is what I went for with my setup:

View attachment 119222

My setup is darn close to a beta cam / ENG camera. I can choose between the wooden handles you see pictured or the standard Sony control grip which I position with the arm horizontal so that the grip is located roughly where the servo grip would be on a B4 zoom. The camera can be placed upright on the ground, there are no protruding arms that require building or potentially obstruct camera placements, and everything is somewhat , minimalist, compact and straightforward. No "frankencam" / "robocam" setup which the Zacuto rig featured in the video in this thread ventures into. Take it out of the bag, power up, shoot. The only time that anything is ever detached is when I swap out lenses or the battery. Again, not for everyone.
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I don't like the VCT setup for my purposes because adding a VCT to Steadicam adds too much weight, height, and bulk. I'm often going from Steadicam, to sticks, to dolly, possibly to Movi, etc. So I want something streamlined for changing setups quickly. Right now when I use the Zacuto VCT baseplate, I often add an adapter on top of it, which adds to the height of the camera setup.

Here is one setup I had which enabled me to keep the rods seperate from the Zacuto VCT baseplate so I could mount to Steadicam without the VCT setup. Wasn't a big fan of the setup, though, so Wooden Camera looks better for that purpose.

13775336_887669734672957_9026978103257683244_n.jpg
 
coutard said:
back to talking about the zacuto's accessories....

doesn't anybody find weird that Canon did not include a lens support solution directly with the lens ? Or at least, a 1/4" or 3/8" thread ?
I mean, why would it even need a lens support if the brand that manufactured it did not design something in that purpose ?
Click to expand...

If you buy the ZSG-C10 (Servo Grip Attachment) for the 18-80mm, it comes with a lens support post to attach to a lens support. This is mainly to brace the 'up-torque' you'll place on it when shooting hand-held, ENG-style shooting. The lens does not necessarily need it for studio tripod work.
 
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