You’re not a camera person, you are a consumer

[Guest]

@Norbro, ML was on a roll unfettered. Canon dropped the hammer, and kept them in check. There was a whole thing about it. Anyway, i think many of those forum post are still searchable. But it hardly matters, as there are a lot of options, and most people seemed to have moved past hacking, in preference for second hand cinema cameras or black magic.

 

[Guest]

...The reason I bring up the auto industry is because it's fully competitive. The manufacturers may want to cripple own products in order to protect the higher end models but their competitors won't stand still. Meanwhile, the photo-video industry is far more controllable with Samsung out of the game and the Chinese barely dipping their toes. Maybe that 8K Sharp piece will wake up some people. But it probably won't.

Such a good reference. Totally see that in the video camera world. It is part of the reason i don’t hate on Arri or red, but at the same time, they are hardly affordable, and, are i don’t exactly know if buying red ir arri changes anything. Haha

 

[Guest]

What's that 2k nonsense?

My finishing system supports up to 16k file based output...

I wasn’t sure about this one, bust have to love it, regardless. Haha

 

[laverdir]

You know that's a joke.

2k is just enough resolution for me.

Color depth and DR is much more noticeable.

 

[laverdir]

Unfortunately, I'm being serious about 16k part...

 

[Guest]

Unfortunately, I'm being serious about 16k part...

I figured that could be true, so i was hesitant to read the sarcasm on the “2k”, haha

 

[Guest]

Completely agree with you here. This a big part of why I can afford the professional gear i can.. i stay in a specific "tear" of equipment now even if its a little old.. who cares.. its honestly allowing me to do things that cameras i can afford new cant...

You have some great cameras!

 

[DLD]

Such a good reference. Totally see that in the video camera world. It is part of the reason i don’t hate on Arri or red, but at the same time, they are hardly affordable, and, are i don’t exactly know if buying red ir arri changes anything. Haha

ARRI is so much above the market, it almost sounds absurd. It's like buying a 959 in its day. The problem for them is the democratization of the final product. As we'd discussed in the Netflix thread, their approved list includes some very inexpensive gear. Varicam LT produces some lovely images for $10,000. I think C200 footage can look real good off Raw Light. The next generation of Sony/Panasonic/Canon will obviously be even better and not everyone will have the major production budgets.

Red, on the other hand, doesn't have the pricing power and has a lineup that all the Japanese makers should have had for the last decade. Brain for $15,000, $20,000, $25,000 before making a jump to $55,000. From a marketing perspective, it probably should have been $15,000-$25,000-$35,000-$45,000-$55,000 but the built-out packages probably smooth out the differences a little. (add leather upholstery, sun roof and Michelin Pilot Sports and you're about to experience a sticker shock)

But, much like with ARRI, someone will build a rig for S1H and decide that a $6,000 package that produces image quality as good as the one from a Red $25,000-$40,000 package - and more dependable to boot - is a better investment. Bösendorfer Imperial may be the shiznit but Bechstein does the trick too.

 

[Guest]

ARRI is so much above the market, it almost sounds absurd. It's like buying a 959 in its day. The problem for them is the democratization of the final product. As we'd discussed in the Netflix thread, their approved list includes some very inexpensive gear. Varicam LT produces some lovely images for $10,000. I think C200 footage can look real good off Raw Light. The next generation of Sony/Panasonic/Canon will obviously be even better and not everyone will have the major production budgets.

Red, on the other hand, doesn't have the pricing power and has a lineup that all the Japanese makers should have had for the last decade. Brain for $15,000, $20,000, $25,000 before making a jump to $55,000. From a marketing perspective, it probably should have been $15,000-$25,000-$35,000-$45,000-$55,000 but the built-out packages probably smooth out the differences a little. (add leather upholstery, sun roof and Michelin Pilot Sports and you're about to experience a sticker shock)

But, much like with ARRI, someone will build a rig for S1H and decide that a $6,000 package that produces image quality as good as the one from a Red $25,000-$40,000 package - and more dependable to boot - is a better investment. Bösendorfer Imperial may be the shiznit but Bechstein does the trick too.

But by everyone constantly saying Arri, Arri, Arri, we are essentially saying dynamic range! dynamic range! dynamic range!

So, even if we don’t buy it, our interest or obsession with the Alev iii is something that can be marketed once buyers and sellers understand that digital benefits from having more than 14stops dynamic range. 15+ puts one in a good place, and gives modern film a run for its money.

Without Arri, people are going to keep chasing the wind. And then Arri can get better too. Can believe cinema is stuck with the Alev iii as the best sensor still. Seems odd...

...but hey, that is what having that kind of dynamic range does! Almost makes a digital shoot start using the word latitude again!

 

[DLD]

DR was always Alexa's pitch because they were losing the resolution war. And because Sony went ape-sh!t with the F-65 workflow. And because studios didn't want to bother with the 4K files when the 1080 delivery was good enough.

Then Netflix said, "Jump" and ARRI obliged. Which tells you who the bigger gorilla is. So, maybe no one is a consumer in charge of his own destiny. Everyone is just goosestepping along to the Netflix tune.

 

[Guest]

DR was always Alexa's pitch because they were losing the resolution war. And because Sony went ape-sh!t with the F-65 workflow. And because studios didn't want to bother with the 4K files when the 1080 delivery was good enough.

Then Netflix said, "Jump" and ARRI obliged. Which tells you who the bigger gorilla is. So, maybe no one is a consumer in charge of his own destiny. Everyone is just goosestepping along to the Netflix tune.

Jumping into that conjecture pool finally?

I doubt Netflix is driving 4K by themselves. Sony and Red, and everyone else is too, and have been at even earlier stages.

And i actually prefer 4K over 2, and that preference has nothing to do with netflix. I was always somewhat disappointed with the Alexa just being 2K, but the dynamic range made up for that. Can’t say i hate a good image in any resolution. But all things being equal, i prefer 4K. Netflix is not a passive passenger, but they are along for the ride in the resolution pushes.

 

[Greg_E]

I'd say EBU and BBC were driving quality standards before Netflix, but then they do list specs. for HD to 4K and depending on use case as well.

 

[Guest]

I'd say EBU and BBC were driving quality standards before Netflix, but then they do list specs. for HD to 4K and depending on use case as well.

From my recollection, the BBC and similar standards when camera systems implied the end format. Dvcpro cameras worked through to a dvc output. At the end of the pipeline, the viewers were getting a very similar end product.

The streaming industry may or may not be sending the customer 4K or even 480 if the bandwidth isn’t there. The streaming industry doesn’t have many standards. So when netflix made their camera list, it was for their own archival and marketing purposes. But they are still going to snatch up whatever blockbuster is shot on 2k or scanned and post processed as such.

There are groups and societies working on standardizing things, and companies like netflix and samsung and many more are a part of that process obviously. But chad worrying about 4K compatible cameras for some random project is, just one of thos funny things we are goong to have to deal with, i guess. Oh chad, he worries so.

 

[Guest]

Disclaimer: “chad” is a fictional character, any resemblence to real or fictitious persons is completely unintentional.

 

[DLD]

... I doubt Netflix is driving 4K by themselves. Sony and Red, and everyone else is too, and have been at even earlier stages.

It's the television manufacturers, which are often the same as the camera manufacturers (Sony, Panasonic, Samsung). Then it's the streaming services.

But there's a historical precedent in the camera world where a 35mm 4-perf (aka full frame/Vista Vision) film is around 6-6.5 Megapixels (for the original print ... by the time you get to the copy that's been playing in movie theaters for three months, the quality is lucky to hit 1-2 MPX). And, since most major features were shot on Panavision or Todd AO 65-70mm cameras, then you get to ~ 14 MPX and into the 5K territory. So, it's sort of the "back to the future" type of a deal. It's just that one can view a pristine copy of "Lawrence of Arabia" at home as Freddie Young would have bequeathed.

 

[Guest]

But there's a historical precedent in the camera world where a 35mm 4-perf (aka full frame/Vista Vision) film is around 6-6.5 Megapixels (for the original print ... by the time you get to the copy that's been playing in movie theaters for three months, the quality is lucky to hit 1-2 MPX). And, since most major features were shot on Panavision or Todd AO 65-70mm cameras, then you get to ~ 14 MPX and into the 5K territory. So, it's sort of the "back to the future" type of a deal. It's just that one can view a pristine copy of "Lawrence of Arabia" at home as Freddie Young would have bequeathed.

I must say, seeing Lawrence of Arabia projected from a pristine reprint... never have i ever.. wondefful moment.

 

[OldCorpse]

"You're not a camera person[...]"

That would've been a good place to stop also. And so I declare: I AM NOT A CAMERA PERSON. (Period - note the period)

Why the heck should I be? After years and years of following every twist and turn of camera tech at the prosumer level (due to affordability and kind of projects I was interested in), I gave up this year. I no longer give a flying f about any camera and have zero curiosity about what camera is coming out next, and will not even look at the coverage or announcements. The reason is simple - all cameras are "good enough" and I am very happy to delegate the responsibility for all tech things to the appropriate people. Previously either I had to shoot myself or I felt the need to know all the technical details so that I could discuss and decide things with the tech folks based on all that. Today I feel no such need, because I feel that the differences are so small between different cameras that I don't feel the need to stuff my head with such minutia. It's a huge time sink that should be spent much more usefully in other areas of filmmaking. Once you make the decision to leave things to the appropriate people - leave things to the appropriate people. I don't care if you use this camera or that - I have these requirements for the project, and whatever gear you think is best I'll co-sign. I am super happy not to micro-manage or even inquire.

I suspect that once the prosumer cameras have reached a certain level, the number of people who pay fanatical attention to every detail is going to drop down to only the folks who need to know tiny details - DP's and the like. But folks at a different point in the food chain - producers etc., will just absorb the realization that "all are good enough" and stop paying attention. Smaller numbers of people and smaller interest. That's where we are coming to right about now. Seems to me. YMMV.

 

[J.Brown]

Word!

 

[Guest]

"You're not a camera person[...]"

That would've been a good place to stop also. And so I declare: I AM NOT A CAMERA PERSON. (Period - note the period)

Why the heck should I be? After years and years of following every twist and turn of camera tech at the prosumer level (due to affordability and kind of projects I was interested in), I gave up this year. I no longer give a flying f about any camera and have zero curiosity about what camera is coming out next, and will not even look at the coverage or announcements. The reason is simple - all cameras are "good enough" and I am very happy to delegate the responsibility for all tech things to the appropriate people. Previously either I had to shoot myself or I felt the need to know all the technical details so that I could discuss and decide things with the tech folks based on all that. Today I feel no such need, because I feel that the differences are so small between different cameras that I don't feel the need to stuff my head with such minutia. It's a huge time sink that should be spent much more usefully in other areas of filmmaking. Once you make the decision to leave things to the appropriate people - leave things to the appropriate people. I don't care if you use this camera or that - I have these requirements for the project, and whatever gear you think is best I'll co-sign. I am super happy not to micro-manage or even inquire.

Bravo! Your post has a heartbeat! Very well said.

 

[nothing]

all cameras are "good enough"

We reached that point years and years ago - long before any of the regulars here seemed to realize it. I suspect most here haven't even realized it now.

I've been exclusively buying generation-old (at least) used gear for half a dozen years now and nobody who has hired me for a smaller shoot (defined as anything where I have to bring my own gear) has ever complained. I posit that I am very much NOT a consumer in the sense stated here, as the gear manufacturers never get a dime directly from me - but I am very much a cameraperson.

This forum is for pixel-peeping and arguing over pixel-peeping. These ideas will go right over the heads of most here - they want to pixel peep, even when there is no point to it.

Yes I know I said that I was going away - but rainy Saturdays tend to change my plans a bit from time to time. I'd definitely rather be on my motorcycle than the internet right now.