You’re not a camera person, you are a consumer

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The vast majority of shooters out there are consumers. People that like cheap gadgets and good deals. Not sure what the drive is. Some fun is had, for sure, and comradery, but still, for the most part it is a consumer sport.

Working camera operators and dp’s benefit from an effecient mindset, one where getting an Alexa with Cookes not only makes sense, but saves a lot of time sorting out all the variables. It may be annoying to see such simplistic snootiness when another person starts talking BM and the Arri crowd frowns and moves on, but there is a simplicity and effeciency to the snootiness... if you can afford it.


But most people are far more happy jumping on the next upgrade. Canon 5D, those Sony cameras, and most recently, i am hearing people talk about the Panasonic S ff35 cameras, as if they are the end all be all. ....which is what they used to say about the 5D.

The consimerism shows itself every NAB and anytime No Film School or Newshooter post about a new camera.

Is this it?! The one?!? Did we finally get the thing?!?

Most serious video people have been asking for high quality 2K/1080. Some how, we never really got that. I think the only company that had the balls to cater to camera people was Alexa.

Canon had the 5D hack for raw video, but they shut that down. Then they gave the world $16K 8bit 50mbps.

BM made some hack job bodies early on.

But really, no one ever made an affordable 2K option with a good bit rate till recently, post 4K. And not just post 4K, but on the cusp of 8K.

That is kind of wild to think about!

We never got what we wanted when we wanted it, or needed it..... without a heavy cost or risk (yeah bm was a risky unknown early on, sorry)

At this point, the camera landscape is pretty varied and vast. Really nothing sticking out, since they keep going for marketable specs and viral like headlines over cameras people want.

Fuji is an interesting one, they smacked a bunch of good sounding features into what they call a “pro” camera, but have zero interest in if those features do what they say they do.


Every single time a new camera is annouced, we all get some half baked master class in the camera industry and why the companies make the choices they do. None of us are camera manufacturers... so, how much weight do these little business seminars hold?

We all choose this occupation for various reasons, some practical and others personal or self fulfilling, and for a some financial. That definitely influences our attitudes and thoughts towards the tools we use.

But one thing remains a constant, we always blame the camera user and not the camera. They can’t afford it, they can’t use it, it isn’t made for them, we all want different things, etc...

But the truth has been:

A: good quality 1080 has more impact than bad 4K


They could have made cameras like that for the last decade.... but they didn’t. I am sure by now, if you are still reading this, you are now thinking about the marketability and why manufacturers never made good 1080 when it was more relevant and needed. ...but there you go again, taking on the consumer mindset instead of actually recognizing you really do want a certain type of camera that everyone else would enjoy too. Ah, but marketing specs. Right? That ole business master class creeping back in. Poop that.

But here were are fast approaching 2020, and i’d still like an affordable good quality 2K/1080 machine. Well, thankfully those darn’d Alexas can be had for under $8K now. So, maybe i finally got my wish...took some time, but it all worked out in the end.


...oh, what was that? Yes, tell me more about why manufacturers do what they do...
 
NOTE: this is a post more about seeing cameras built for marketing, and not for end users. This is not an advocation for 1080 or 2K. Resolution is nice, i love resolution, i am just saying we never got good affordable ergonomic 1080 or 2K cameras. Essentially, cameras are never letting us out of the consumer cycle. Never actually giving the customers what they ask for, but what they are afraid to leave out.
 
Regardless of what we need, what we can really see in our resolution(s), use, should have, etc., the majority of people currently asking for any 1080p cameras is slim so that's why we don't have new ones (only focusing on "good" HD) and never will again.

We got what we got back in the day, and then the world changed and here we are.

And ARRI made the right camera at the right time. It could have been anyone.
 
Knew you guys would get hung up on the 2K. I even made a note about the 2K thing, still got hung up on the 2K thing. Haha.
 
Regardless of what we need, what we can really see in our resolution(s), use, should have, etc., the majority of people currently asking for any 1080p cameras is slim so that's why we don't have new ones (only focusing on "good" HD) and never will again.
Why would you want that now?

Norbro said:
We got what we got back in the day, and then the world changed and here we are.
And here we are. Which is where.... wait, what are you saying?

Norbro said:
And ARRI made the right camera at the right time. It could have been anyone.
Arri never made an affordable camera. Haha. I only mentioned it in irony, because after close to 15years of HD,
there never was an affordable 1080/2K camera people asked for. So many reasons for why we couldn’t, and then in 2018-19 the favourite camera is a high quality 2K camera... not a 4K one. Go figure. I guess there was no market for it all along... haha. Crazy right?

...And we are doing the same thing with 4K, and about to with 8K.

The attitude of:
- Manufacturer sales and marketing justifications
- technical limitations
- lack of customer base
- this camera is good because it is almost as good as another one but is cheaper
- cannibalization of tiers
- yadayada!
(Did i miss any)

All of the reasons don’t take from the fundemental physics of good image quality and ergonomics. That could and can be implemented, but simply are not. And we know why: we are consumers

When Red sells expensive memory, everyone is up in arms, but we are missing the point: manufacturers have been doing that for a long time, but even worse, when they don’t make what we are looking for we make excuses about why they can’t.

Who?!? What?!? I mean, who else pays for what they didn’t want and then blames themselves for wanting it? Sounds like stockholm syndrome or some abusive relationship.
 
I probably should have just asked...

What are you asking? Or even saying for that matter?

You seem to be looking for some kind of deep answers to something (with this post and others)...are you?
 
I probably should have just asked...

What are you asking? Or even saying for that matter?

You seem to be looking for some kind of deep answers to something (with this post and others)...are you?

It isn’t that deep.
 
The original BMD Pocket was 1080P, with Raw capabilities and extremely affordable. F5 was not 4K either. Except that it was. C300 ruled the 1080P market for several years, then C100 MKII did. F35 was RGB 2K. As was F23 and others pre-2013 or so.

But the basic hand-down of features sort of works like this. One might see an X-amount of features on a high end model and, within five years or about see them migrate to a "consumer" level, by which time the high end begin to include a new set of performance and workflow based options. So, sometimes, a given feature/performance goal settles in for a while and, sometimes, it's a constant evolution from the top down. And sometimes, there are jumps, where something that is one day can be found only on a $50,000 camera comes out the next day on a $10,000 camera and no one wants a $50,000 camera no more.

PS. This is true in the automobile market too (which is, for the most part, consumer based). A Civic R comes out with a magnetic suspension and, all of a sudden, you can have a sports and daily driver in one body for $35,000. Then Hyundai comes out with a $30,000 sports car that delivers the performance of a $90,000 sports car of a decade ago. Then a new Vette gives you a supercar performance for $60,000. And so it goes. It's called innovation. Or the Industrial Age. Or something like that.
 
I don't know about others but as with every piece of gear I own it's a culmination of being tried and justified and the stuff that doesn't get used gets retired one way or the other. I'm also tired of all the product coming that suppose to finally be the do-it-all machines. So yes we are mere customers in the manufactures eyes. Their aim is not to help us, they just want to make a lot of money.

Fair enough I to want to make a lot of money with the equipment I bought but most importantly I want to have fun and learn something new each day at work.
 
Well, it is easy to justify. Commerce and money is the lowest common denominator, and the eventual justification....

But are we in this to buy new cameras with incrmental updates, to beat out our competitors with a better camera,, or do we enjoy capturing images and moments?

If the camera companies sales were going up, i would have to stand back and accept their logic, but when i see people NOT updating or buying because cameras are all gimmick, i think, why do we keep justifying for them? Even by their logic things are not working out for them.
 
I ember the Canon scandal with Magic Lantern.

Magic Lantern was getting relatively stable raw HD, at least as reliable as early black magic.

The justification for Canon not implementing it, was stability.... “because Canon wants to make a stable camera”, but then they go and make a 4K 1DC that is NOT stable! It could have had stable 10bit 2k, but they gave it unreliable 4K.

So the whole Canon justification just flew out the window. I am sure there are more reasons, but it was pretty clear that companies keep missing the mark. And i don’t even think they know it.
 
Did you have problems with your 1DC back in the day? (I never heard of anyone having issues with it besides the random quirks companies have.)

ML is still going...maybe there's not much passion over there anymore, but Canon never stopped them. They supposedly just didn't want it on the 1DC, and ML made a public statement saying they won't work on that camera.
 
ML is still going...
Who said they weren’t?

Norbro said:
maybe there's not much passion over there anymore, but Canon never stopped them. They supposedly just didn't want it on the 1DC, and ML made a public statement saying they won't work on that camera.
Yep, that’s the one controversy i was refering to. Although, you puzzle me, who said Canon stopped ML? Why are you asking these questions to statements no one made until you phrased them as a question?
 
Did you have problems with your 1DC back in the day? (I never heard of anyone having issues with it besides the random quirks companies have.)

As for the 1DC, you are welcome to guess which cards will work, and/or go shoot in the heat in 4K for hours a day... but the reviews are good on BH, so what do i know...

It had some overheating issues. I knew it was a DSLR, so i didn’t push it. But i did have overheating issues. Some people had other issues with it, but i never looked into whether those were founded or not... because of the jello and 8bit linitations.
 
Toyota management was asked why they released the 86 with a fairly feeble 200 HP engine (which does about 160 on the dyno). The reply was that they had no room in the engine compartment for a turbo.

Of course, the aftermarket mods have been able to put all sorts of turbos on it. The same goes for the Miata.

Sony was asked on more than one occasion why they only include the 8-bit codec on their upscale cameras. They mumble and have a slew of canned responses. Canon gives the same crappy answers on the dreaded crop. And Log.

The reason I bring up the auto industry is because it's fully competitive. The manufacturers may want to cripple own products in order to protect the higher end models but their competitors won't stand still. Meanwhile, the photo-video industry is far more controllable with Samsung out of the game and the Chinese barely dipping their toes. Maybe that 8K Sharp piece will wake up some people. But it probably won't.
 
The C300 was affordable for owner ops and I used to see it everywhere. While I never liked the ergonomics, it put out a solid 1080 image and was requested by everyone before the FS7 came out.
 
The C300 was affordable for owner ops and I used to see it everywhere. While I never liked the ergonomics, it put out a solid 1080 image and was requested by everyone before the FS7 came out.

It was 8bit 50mbps for $16K.

For broadcast specs in the US, that was fine. The C300 was a big aesthetic leap from the 2/3” cameras previously used in reality TV.

Corporate video, weddings, and indie filmers all enjoyed using them. Great battery life, and good color science, especially for the time.


The omission of 10bit? Canon didn’t have 10bit cabability in their outdated video processors, so they just ran with what they had. Or so the story goes. But it wasn’t like 10bit was unusual. In fact, people kind of made a fuss about it. Didn’t matter though, the camera worked as intended for its market, and then promptly became outdate..... doh! Wait a second!
 
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The vast majority of shooters out there are consumers. People that like cheap gadgets and good deals. Not sure what the drive is. Some fun is had, for sure, and comradery, but still, for the most part it is a consumer sport.

Working camera operators and dp’s benefit from an effecient mindset, one where getting an Alexa with Cookes not only makes sense, but saves a lot of time sorting out all the variables. It may be annoying to see such simplistic snootiness when another person starts talking BM and the Arri crowd frowns and moves on, but there is a simplicity and effeciency to the snootiness... if you can afford it.


But most people are far more happy jumping on the next upgrade. Canon 5D, those Sony cameras, and most recently, i am hearing people talk about the Panasonic S ff35 cameras, as if they are the end all be all. ....which is what they used to say about the 5D.

The consimerism shows itself every NAB and anytime No Film School or Newshooter post about a new camera.

Is this it?! The one?!? Did we finally get the thing?!?

Most serious video people have been asking for high quality 2K/1080. Some how, we never really got that. I think the only company that had the balls to cater to camera people was Alexa.

Canon had the 5D hack for raw video, but they shut that down. Then they gave the world $16K 8bit 50mbps.

BM made some hack job bodies early on.

But really, no one ever made an affordable 2K option with a good bit rate till recently, post 4K. And not just post 4K, but on the cusp of 8K.

That is kind of wild to think about!

We never got what we wanted when we wanted it, or needed it..... without a heavy cost or risk (yeah bm was a risky unknown early on, sorry)

At this point, the camera landscape is pretty varied and vast. Really nothing sticking out, since they keep going for marketable specs and viral like headlines over cameras people want.

Fuji is an interesting one, they smacked a bunch of good sounding features into what they call a “pro” camera, but have zero interest in if those features do what they say they do.


Every single time a new camera is annouced, we all get some half baked master class in the camera industry and why the companies make the choices they do. None of us are camera manufacturers... so, how much weight do these little business seminars hold?

We all choose this occupation for various reasons, some practical and others personal or self fulfilling, and for a some financial. That definitely influences our attitudes and thoughts towards the tools we use.

But one thing remains a constant, we always blame the camera user and not the camera. They can’t afford it, they can’t use it, it isn’t made for them, we all want different things, etc...

But the truth has been:

A: good quality 1080 has more impact than bad 4K


They could have made cameras like that for the last decade.... but they didn’t. I am sure by now, if you are still reading this, you are now thinking about the marketability and why manufacturers never made good 1080 when it was more relevant and needed. ...but there you go again, taking on the consumer mindset instead of actually recognizing you really do want a certain type of camera that everyone else would enjoy too. Ah, but marketing specs. Right? That ole business master class creeping back in. Poop that.

But here were are fast approaching 2020, and i’d still like an affordable good quality 2K/1080 machine. Well, thankfully those darn’d Alexas can be had for under $8K now. So, maybe i finally got my wish...took some time, but it all worked out in the end.


...oh, what was that? Yes, tell me more about why manufacturers do what they do...

Completely agree with you here. This a big part of why I can afford the professional gear i can.. i stay in a specific "tear" of equipment now even if its a little old.. who cares.. its honestly allowing me to do things that cameras i can afford new cant...
 
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