Will the new offering from Blackmagic convince Canon to liberate the HDMI on the 5d3

[Kholi]

A correction on DR from scarlet and epic: no, they do. It have more usable dr. Of the Magic Cam can use an actual 13 stops of DR it is a full stop over scarlet and epic natively, before HDR.

As neither are an actual usable 13. Alexa is 13.

Gary has made a sound point, and what's not being realized is that blackmagic is already in the heart of nearly every professional workflow today. Adding a b or c cam to shoots already using Alexa, with the same DR as Alexa, for less than 4000.00 is a producers dream.

The footage will plug right into the existing workflow out of the camera, right into resolve with the rest of their Alexa dailies.
When they said complimentary to those major cams they meant it.

 

[Gene Sung]

I honestly think Canon doesn't care much about what the average filmmaker needs. People have been waiting SO LONG for Canon to "get it right." and they just don't. So it's really up to Magic Lantern to make it happen.

As for me, I'm very thankful for the Metabones adaptor because I see a Sony FS 700 in my near future. Just can't wait for Canon to get their stuff together. It just seems like it will never happen. If by some miracle, ML is released by the time the FS 700 comes out, I might get a 5D3.

I really wish there was a Sony FS700 in a smaller, DSLR like body, but it's only about 1 lbs heavier than a 5D3 and I messed with in the store and the ergonomics aren't as bad as I thought. At least I don't have to wait for clean HDMI, something that might never come with the Canons.

 

[S. Matthews]

" A correction on DR from scarlet and epic: no, they do. It have more usable dr. Of the Magic Cam can use an actual 13 stops of DR it is a full stop over scarlet and epic natively, before HDR. "

how can you know that yet? I don't think anyone has done a proper DR test comparing both in the same test let alone any definitive DR test of the BMC.

Many people have tested both alexa and Epic and many disagree on numbers, some much lower than others generally it's been acepted by most I have seen that Alexa is around a half stop more sensitive and Epic is around 13. Can't wait to see where people land on the BMC after doing these sorts of differing comparisons.

 

[Samuel H]

I know the 5D3 is a stills camera first - and I know it's being trounced by the D800 in its core market, just check the amazon top seller list (D800 second, 5D3 12th and quickly moving down) http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Camera-Photo-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/photo/3017941 - so they better find a market for the thing before it ends in dodo land - video could be that market, but they need to act fast, before people realize how awesome it is to work with 12-bit RAW footage (seriously, you just wouldn't buy a DSLR that only shot jpg stills, would you?)

 

[Kegan]

That's misrepresentative of what's actually happening. You can't sell what's sold out, can you? Here in Canada, it was hard to find a 5Dmk3 in stock and from what I hear, that's also the case in the states.

Kegan

 

[Kholi]

" A correction on DR from scarlet and epic: no, they do. It have more usable dr. Of the Magic Cam can use an actual 13 stops of DR it is a full stop over scarlet and epic natively, before HDR. "

how can you know that yet? I don't think anyone has done a proper DR test comparing both in the same test let alone any definitive DR test of the BMC.

Many people have tested both alexa and Epic and many disagree on numbers, some much lower than others generally it's been acepted by most I have seen that Alexa is around a half stop more sensitive and Epic is around 13. Can't wait to see where people land on the BMC after doing these sorts of differing comparisons.

Of = if. My iPhone confuses people. Sorry.

Which means I don't know if it's thirteen, which is what I said. But if it is, then it is greater than epic and scarlet. 12.5 stops is generous, the people that disagree are the people who have stake in red.

Epic is NOT a useable 13 stops of dr natively. Sorry.

 

[wgzn]

BMD just stole their video market.

couldnt disagree more. i'll take a full frame sensor over 2k from an m4/3 any day.
only about 30% of my clients even make meaningful use of HD deliverables. 2k wont make much of an impact in my marketability...

just one guys viewpoint.

 

[S. Matthews]

Damn Iphones, and stupid me I should have figured that is what you were trying to say, sorry!

agree to disagree, either way plenty usable to me just don't agree with the numbers given by the zacuto shoot out. I'd love to do a proper comparison myself as that is the only way to know for sure it's just I doubt I'll get my hands on an Alexa any time soon. Plus I'm not set up to conduct a proper DR test so...

Sorry but the people that disagree vary, some have vested interest in RED while others don't. In fact I would say the exact same thing about other tests I have seen they have a stake in just about every camera other than the RED's(Alexa,7D...,F3,af100 etc) most of the numbers that place RED at 12 or lower are done by people who might have vested interests elsewhere. The tests I have seen, which seem more accurate (and provide white papers) have been people trying to figure out what camera would be best on a feature or show. But as I said to each their own and all that really matters is what you see and can get out of either camera not what others tell you.

Bias it's hard to get rid of, and even harder to recognize in one's self!

To be honest I'm not sure what the definitive numbers are and neither am I sure that any of these tests can be taken as conclusive on the matter. All I know is throwing around hard numbers and figures based on others interpretations and tests is by no means conclusive or helpful (with regards to DR as it can be very subjective) all that matters is are you happy with the image and workflow of the camera or not, and to be honest I can't see how you couldn't these days plenty of wonderful camera's coming out and already here... fs700, mkIII, BMC, DBolex, F3, scarlet, GH2. there is a great camera for just about every market and type of shooting style. I feel it's time people began only talking about their camera of choice to an extent and stop worrying about how it matches up to the rest, and at the very least ease up on the snide remarks (every fan base make these and none of them are appropriate or a mature way of doing things). Talking in general here I'm not directing any of this towards you Kholi.

Have a good one!

 

[GioCanales]

I know the 5D3 is a stills camera first - and I know it's being trounced by the D800 in its core market, just check the amazon top seller list (D800 second, 5D3 12th and quickly moving down) http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Camera-Photo-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/photo/3017941 - so they better find a market for the thing before it ends in dodo land - video could be that market, but they need to act fast, before people realize how awesome it is to work with 12-bit RAW footage (seriously, you just wouldn't buy a DSLR that only shot jpg stills, would you?)

Canon is not doing so well in DxOMark Sensor Scores against Nikon D800 either, the scores of the MKIII are close to the D700.

Take a look:

http://nikonrumors.com/2012/04/19/dxomark-verdict-nikon-d800-95-canon-5d-mark-iii-81.aspx/

 

[Kholi]

agree to disagree, either way plenty usable to me just don't agree with the numbers given by the zacuto shoot out. I'd love to do a proper comparison myself as that is the only way to know for sure it's just I doubt I'll get my hands on an Alexa any time soon. Plus I'm not set up to conduct a proper DR test so...

S
Have a good one!

From experience and first hand on both, knowing full well how to process raw, epic without HDRx is not thirteen stops of useable DR. That's not opinion. That's technical.

Same way people tested MKii to have 12+ stops or dr in video mode. That's clearly not whats useable by any measure.

Whether or not that matters to some is a different story. Like you said, if it makes you happy.

Maybe red dragon will be 13.5. That would be cool.

 

[gonzo_entertainment]

couldnt disagree more. i'll take a full frame sensor over 2k from an m4/3 any day.
only about 30% of my clients even make meaningful use of HD deliverables. 2k wont make much of an impact in my marketability...

just one guys viewpoint.

Same here, no interest in an S16 sized sensor. I don't care if it's 400K.

It's a positive development, no doubt, an s35 sized version from somebody shouldn't be too far behind.

 

[S. Matthews]

well if dragon is 15 then I guess it will be 14 from how you look at it. but as I said DR(should have been usable DR) is not a hard technical number it's rather subjective as to what is an acceptable level of noise.

after some thought:
From my experience it is closer to 12/12.5 as you say, the final stop is quite noisey, but I find with noise reduction and or reducing the Image to 1080 seem's to bring it back. but there is 13 stops in there maybe even closer to 13.5 just you wouldn't use it, so lets just wait and see how much of the BMC is usable. To be clear not hoping for worse in fact I hope it's a clean 13 that would be amazing!

I've been asking Graeme and others to figure out a procedure of sorts for testing sensors DR with a repeatable fool proof system like a lens collimator that is placed in front of a lens and runs a series of pre-set images that are then recorded and then pulled into a program set up to try and read out the images and give an exact set of numbers, most likely not even the real amount of stops but more likely just a starting point for comparison between cameras seeing as it is the same each time any flaws in the machine or test itself would be replicated cross all sensors. Now there could be compatibility issues with different types of sensors, and mounts, and seeing as I have little knowledge in this type of stuff who knows if this is even remotely possible.

Just seems to me human error plays a major part in all of these sorts of tests when they shouldn't, it should just be "oh new camera came out what's it's sensitivity, oh it scored a 67 on the steve scale" .... I know there are great ways of testing DR it's just hard to repeat the exact same way on multiple tests by multiple people around the world for multiple different cameras using different lenses. Either way it would save a hell of a lot of bandwidth, and prevent endless discussions arguing points of view on who's test was done better and who to trust.

 

[nigelbb]

I know the 5D3 is a stills camera first - and I know it's being trounced by the D800 in its core market, just check the amazon top seller list (D800 second, 5D3 12th and quickly moving down) http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Camera-Photo-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/photo/3017941 - so they better find a market for the thing before it ends in dodo land - video could be that market, but they need to act fast, before people realize how awesome it is to work with 12-bit RAW footage (seriously, you just wouldn't buy a DSLR that only shot jpg stills, would you?)

It's dropping down the list because they sold out & there is no stock available. They are selling quicker than Canon can ship them. Here in the UK a colleague who wants to buy one spent yesterday afternoon on the phone ringing around all the major suppliers (CVP, Jigsaw24, Jacobs, Warehouse Express, Park Cameras etc etc) but nobody had any stock. One or two thought that they might be getting a delivery tomorrow while the others expected stock next week. The 5D3 is selling like hot cakes as it is a fantastic upgrade for their target market (still photography). It is also pretty damn good on the video side & a great improvement on the 5D2.

Just because the 5D3 gets dissed on Internet forums by dickheads who haven't even used one doesn't mean that it's not a great camera for video. I'm getting pretty sick of all the whining that goes on. People who will never have the money to buy a Blackmagic Cinema Camera are already complaining that 1) it's got a built in battery or 2) that it's only S16 & not FF or 3) that the low light capability on the preliminary test footage just isn't up to snuff etc etc . Good Grief!

 

[Kholi]

well if dragon is 15 then I guess it will be 14 from how you look at it. but as I said DR(should have been usable DR) is not a hard technical number it's rather subjective as to what is an acceptable level of noise.

after some thought:
From my experience it is closer to 12/12.5 as you say, the final stop is quite noisey, but I find with noise reduction and or reducing the Image to 1080 seem's to bring it back. but there is 13 stops in there maybe even closer to 13.5 just you wouldn't use it, so lets just wait and see how much of the BMC is usable. To be clear not hoping for worse in fact I hope it's a clean 13 that would be amazing!

I've been asking Graeme and others to figure out a procedure of sorts for testing sensors DR with a repeatable fool proof system like a lens collimator that is placed in front of a lens and runs a series of pre-set images that are then recorded and then pulled into a program set up to try and read out the images and give an exact set of numbers, most likely not even the real amount of stops but more likely just a starting point for comparison between cameras seeing as it is the same each time any flaws in the machine or test itself would be replicated cross all sensors. Now there could be compatibility issues with different types of sensors, and mounts, and seeing as I have little knowledge in this type of stuff who knows if this is even remotely possible.

Just seems to me human error plays a major part in all of these sorts of tests when they shouldn't, it should just be "oh new camera came out what's it's sensitivity, oh it scored a 67 on the steve scale" .... I know there are great ways of testing DR it's just hard to repeat the exact same way on multiple tests by multiple people around the world for multiple different cameras using different lenses. Either way it would save a hell of a lot of bandwidth, and prevent endless discussions arguing points of view on who's test was done better and who to trust.

Thats the issue, some companies are spinning and that's just the nature of the beast. It creates a lot of confusion that typically only professionals with major access to propert tests can cut through. But by the time they do it's too late.

I think Alexa 13.5 is generrous, that last half stop doesn't seem useable but a lot of people say it is. It goes along with what you say, subjectivity in useable noise floors etc. 13 is amazing.
Someone commented onBMD being modest about the 13 claim, meaning it could be more but they actually put out useable specs not general info.

The reason I am willin to believe that is because of te angle they are approaching this, post. We will see when the real tests come in. Of course.
Sorry for slight off topic and iPhone errors.

 

[cpc]

after some thought:
From my experience it is closer to 12/12.5 as you say, the final stop is quite noisey, but I find with noise reduction and or reducing the Image to 1080 seem's to bring it back. but there is 13 stops in there maybe even closer to 13.5 just you wouldn't use it, so lets just wait and see how much of the BMC is usable. To be clear not hoping for worse in fact I hope it's a clean 13 that would be amazing!

I wouldn't hold my breath over this.
I don't remember a manufacturer ever stated clean DR when listing specs. Well, perhaps with the exception of Arri, who were kind of conservative with the DR of the Alexa, if I remember right.

Testing DR is not that hard really. But you are right that results are generally comparable when all cameras are tested with the same setup (and ideally by the same person).

 

[Kholi]

It's dropping down the list because they sold out & there is no stock available. They are selling quicker than Canon can ship them. Here in the UK a colleague who wants to buy one spent yesterday afternoon on the phone ringing around all the major suppliers (CVP, Jigsaw24, Jacobs, Warehouse Express, Park Cameras etc etc) but nobody had any stock. One or two thought that they might be getting a delivery tomorrow while the others expected stock next week. The 5D3 is selling like hot cakes as it is a fantastic upgrade for their target market (still photography). It is also pretty damn good on the video side & a great improvement on the 5D2.

Just because the 5D3 gets dissed on Internet forums by dickheads who haven't even used one doesn't mean that it's not a great camera for video. I'm getting pretty sick of all the whining that goes on. People who will never have the money to buy a Blackmagic Cinema Camera are already complaining that 1) it's got a built in battery or 2) that it's only S16 & not FF or 3) that the low light capability on the preliminary test footage just isn't up to snuff etc etc . Good Grief!

While you have a point and I don't disagree with you, let's try to stay cordial. I too am baffled at the complaints about the sensor size, especially from current m4/3 owners. Like its that much bigger...

 

[Kholi]

I wouldn't hold my breath over this.
I don't remember a manufacturer ever stated clean DR when listing specs. Well, perhaps with the exception of Arri, who were kind of conservative with the DR of the Alexa, if I remember right.

Testing DR is not that hard really. But you are right that results are generally comparable when all cameras are tested with the same setup (and ideally by the same person).

They were fairly conservative, which is what I've heard about the BMD dr spec as well.

Shouldnt be too long before we get a real idea.

 

[vladszp]

i think they use Fairchild sCMOS .. its only sensor on market who is in the spec of DMB camera...
and if they do than thats a good thing because that sensor is cutting edge of cmos technology...
it rates 88db of DR almost 15 stops ...and it has huge 6.5 pixels same as 1dx....
but there is difference between sensor rated DR and usable DR (ABOUT TWO STOPS) ...RED ONE sensor was rated 66 db ( 11,3 )
but in reality 9.5 was usable ...same as a kodak sensor from ikonoskop 64db 10.8 usable 9....
http://www.scmos.com/

 

[yoclay]

BMD just stole their video market.

couldnt disagree more. i'll take a full frame sensor over 2k from an m4/3 any day.
only about 30% of my clients even make meaningful use of HD deliverables. 2k wont make much of an impact in my marketability...

just one guys viewpoint.

Canon has just created a 4K camera which is supposedly for the sole purpose of Hollywood style productions when they need something for tight spots or as a crash cam. The reality BM has just stolen this market. You can fit the BMCC into even tighter spots, is 12bit, goes HD-SDI out and is 1/5th the price. I guarantee this will be on sets all over for this reason, and not just one of them.

On top of that for the guy who only has $3-4K to begin with, and would be buying a DSLR primarily for the video side, once again with the Full Resolve and Ultrascope packages included the BMCC is a no brainer. A big production doesn't need repeat versions of those software packages, but the average guy does need one of these, so this sweetener was created for him.

The fact is Canon has been too conservative, and it's going to come back and bite them this time.

Consider this:


Need I say more?

 

[Kholi]

The above coincides with my earlier post in this thread. I agree. Although its a wait and see as always.