Why I'll rather buy another HMC40

Felipe Henao

Felipe Henao

Well-known member
I know this viewpoint will not like to many people, but is my personal view point according to my personal needs.
AG-AC90 Seems like a very nice camera but is not what I will look for the HMC40 replacement.
If I want higher spec I'll rather buy a big chip camera.
Things I don't like about AG-AC90 :
1- Not parfocal lens ????
1- New batteries ( 4 new batteries us $ 600+ )
2- Fixed lens hood, so wide angle adapter has to be specific for this camera , not previous models ( us $ 250+ )
3- Not 3.5 mic jack, of course XLR is better but some times you need a small mic without the XLR Box
4- About double the size and more weight
5- No waveform monitor, but large LCD Screen ( No large screen will replace the lack of WFM )
6- Not confirmed but seems like it has not Touch focus ( I use it frequently )
7- Seems to me like HMC40 has a stronger construction starting by delicate transparent doors covering the XLR controls on the AC90
8- No Leica lens seems like some savings here

Panasonic gave us a lot with HMC40, and personally would upgrade to camera with similar caract. to the actual HMC40
 
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For the most part, I agree with you. I had been considering selling my HMC40 and buying an AC90, but I would miss the waveform monitor too much, not to mention that the HMC40 is just about the perfect size and weight. It's just big enough to make the necessary controls accessable, but small enough to not be intrusive. Having to get different batteries is a turn-off as well. As Barry said, the AC90 is apparently not a true successor to the HMC40. Yet, the HMC40 and AC90 are still similar enough that I couldn't justify owning both of them.

I wouldn't knock the lens in the the AC90 just yet. For all we know, it may be superior to the lens in the HMC40, Lecia or not. We already know that it's wider and faster than the HMC40's and with a nice 8-blade iris to boot.

The touch autofocus is nice in the '40, but if the focus assist tools are better on the AC90, then it's absince (if it even is absent) would not be a big deal to me, at least.

Yes, there is no perfect camera yet. Whoever can come up with something similar to the HMC40 in size and price with 4:2:2 internal recording, minimal to no rolling shutter skew, and more sensitiviy and dynamic range will have my money. The XF100 is pretty close to that already, so I'm sure that it's coming.
 
Wesley Byram said:
For the most part, I agree with you. I had been considering selling my HMC40 and buying an AC90, but I would miss the waveform monitor too much, not to mention that the HMC40 is just about the perfect size and weight. It's just big enough to make the necessary controls accessable, but small enough to not be intrusive. Having to get different batteries is a turn-off as well. As Barry said, the AC90 is apparently not a true successor to the HMC40. Yet, the HMC40 and AC90 are still similar enough that I couldn't justify owning both of them.

I wouldn't knock the lens in the the AC90 just yet. For all we know, it may be superior to the lens in the HMC40, Lecia or not. We already know that it's wider and faster than the HMC40's and with a nice 8-blade iris to boot.

The touch autofocus is nice in the '40, but if the focus assist tools are better on the AC90, then it's absince (if it even is absent) would not be a big deal to me, at least.

Yes, there is no perfect camera yet. Whoever can come up with something similar to the HMC40 in size and price with 4:2:2 internal recording, minimal to no rolling shutter skew, and more sensitiviy and dynamic range will have my money. The XF100 is pretty close to that already, so I'm sure that it's coming.
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Yes since I'm looking for another camcorder to make companion to the HMC40 rather wait for the HMC50, Since the Lumix GH3 that I just preorder is a Cinema camera with big chip but different handling.
 
Hey Felipe

Bear in mind that the AC-90 uses CGA batteries and you can buy generic ones for less than $30 each....plus you have a wider selection too. Gosh I don't think I have ever used my 3.5mm jack on the HMC82's ...XLR control is so much better and adjustable..with the 3.5mm jack on the 82 you are stuck at -70db sensitivity!! Double the weight and size for me is an advantage actually!! Better stability and something to hold ..but then again if you need a really tiny camera to stow in a suitcase then the 40 is great..if I want something tiny I use my GoPro. The LCD on the 90 is 10 times better and once you have used a hi res LCD you will be disappointed with a normal one....I only use focus assist not WFM's at all so that aspect doesn't bother me.

In the end it's all about personal choice isn't it...I personally love both my clunky and heavy HMC82's (nearly 9 lbs!!) and I know the controls backwards too....I favoured them over the new AC-130 which only lasted 3 months with me!!!! I'm sure the AC-90 will have things that are better and things that are not so better and it's really up to the person to decide what camera suits them and suits the job they are doing.

Chris
 
And this is exactly why I think there's room for both products in the marketplace. They are priced similarly, yes, but each offers substantial advantages over the other. I think it's great that there's now a full-size camera with great imaging at the same price as we used to be able to get only a tiny-cam at... and simultaneously, I'm glad they're keeping the tiny-cam on the market because there are definitely times when that is exactly what you need.
 
Hi Chris, I'm convinced original batteries last longer, so is cheaper buying originals. I've used sometimes my HMC40 with a Sennheiser MKE 400 and sound is very good, Sometimes a go XLR, But if possible external recorder dual sound
if that really counts, Stabilty as far as I work is accomplished with tools like tripods shoulder mount adapters monopods, steady tracker etc.
Hi Barry MORE than happy that they are keeping the tiny camera in the market because that is exactly what I need, Is not only Tiny and efficient is a classic .
 
Hey Felipe

There I cannot disagree with you!! Generics seem to be good but once you start getting down under 50 minutes the batteries die much quicker...however they are fine for stuff that's not critical ..At weddings I use originals with important stuff like ceremonies and speeches cos I cannot halt the proceedings to change a battery but generics work fine everywhere else..that way I don't overuse my OEM batteries and if the generics start to fail (usually after 12 months) I just replace them!!

I guess I'm just used to XLR and all my audio gear has XLR plugs too!! They are very useful if you suddenly need to take an audio desk feed. Remember I'm also used to BIG cameras so the 40 wouldn't fit my needs but I can certainly see it being great for portability... At my age the HMC82's are getting a tad heavy for me so the 90 just might be the answer for my weary body. What is still very strange is that over here the HMC41 and 42 have vanished off the market??? I have no idea why but it's comforting to know that they are still being made...they definately fill an important gap in the market place!!!

So are you going to buy a second HMC40 or was your post purely to say that your wouldn't exchange your HMC40 for an AC-90??

Chris
 
Hi Chris, XLR is much better than 3.5, however the 3.5 with a good mic can be used with good results, not as good as XLR.
When yo want the best possible audio you plug XLR mics to an external recorder that can mix different audio sources, recording to wav 24 bits 96 Khz sound which is a much richer information
density that allows you to post process the files without a significant loose in quality , on the otherside audio captured in camera is recorded in Dolby which is a very good compression, However lower
quality than those captured by a external audio recorder.
When I say the HMC40 is a classic, means its design has History around 2004 began with the AG-DVC30 and 5 years later kept all its original, willys jeep type design, with the HMC40, and I think is the most
modular design a camera can have keeping pro standars. That is why if I don't see a clear replacement in the future for this model , rather would buy another HMC40 as a backup.
Felipe
 
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Hi Felipe

I think you are being rather hopeful!! As much as we would like to see an HMC50 and also for me, an HMC90 ..I doubt whether it will ever happen. The AC-90 it seems IS the HMC50 (if it was released) so from a business point of view it wouldn't make sense for Panasonic to upgrade the HMC40 (or 80) when they have already produced the AC-90. It wouldn't really make any business sense..the idea is that HMC40 owners who want an upgraded model would buy the AC-90. Sales also for shoulder mount cameras are dwindling so I cannot sadly ever see them bringing out an upgraded HMC80.

You also need to remember that different people shoot different things..at weddings my second camera is always handheld while for others, they might always have it on a tripod. Handheld and with the new 5 axsis OIS would help me a lot but for the guy doing only tripod shots it's not important!! A slightly heavier and bulkier camera also aids handheld shoots so I'm happy the size is bigger...for the guy who needs compact storage for his camera and tripod then smaller might suit him better.

It still looks like the new backlit sensors are worth a look if you shoot indoors...cleaner video at higher gain in dingy wedding venues would be a big plus for me but no real advantage to the guy in a lit studio or outdoors.

The AC-90 will suit some but not others and they can see no huge advantage in buying one. For me ...I will definately grab one when they arrive BUT I'll still keep my HMC82's ...if the AC-90's truely put my 82's to shame then I can think about getting a second one and ditching the 82's.

Chris
 
Chris
Your opinion is very respectable, the AC90 seems like a good camera, I hope you enjoy it, At the moment my camera kit has the HMC40 and two DSLR plus another that is on the way that is the Lumix GH3.
I use the HMC40 for many things, Events, Corporate and Commercial, as you know is a camera that with the right lighting gives you all the advantages from a Proper video camera like a video Lens and all the comfort it gives.
DSLR are a back up for events, or B cameras. And are a very important tools for Corporate and Commercial. As Barry mentioned this camera size has a space in the line, The AC90 is probably the best choice for many videographers
The HMC80 looks very nice is avery pretty camera , Shoulder mount is a system I achieve with a shoulder adapter, again modularity is the name of the game in the actual camera design.
No camera in the AVCCAM line has the modular design that goes from a pocket camera to Full rig like the HMC40, so I think that not now but in the future when the HMC40 will be discontinued, will replace the camera with a modular system
like the actual HMC40, is Almost a must since every brand has its own modular camera in their Pro line, Canon has the XA10, JVC has the GY-HM150U, Sony has the HXR-NX30, However in my opinion the best design is the HMC40.
I don't think Panasonic will be the only brand without a modular system in the Proline, and if I'm not wrong that is what Barry confirmed , there is a place in the line for this type of camera.
Again the AC90 looks like a very nice camera but is not for my taste, I use a compact modular video camera or a DSLR camera which is a camera that with the right experience and handling is capable to get results comparable
to cameras in $ 20.000 dollars line , I'm talking for example the GH3 has 70 mb data rate on a sensor many many times larger than the best P2 plus interchangeable lenses, way better than the AF100


Felipe
 
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Felipe,

I fully understand your reasoning. The good thing is this is a market where we have choices and each person will pick the camera that best fits their needs and budget. So, I could fully understand a different person saying why they might pick the AC90 over the HMC40.


Bob Diaz
 
BobDiaz said:
Felipe,

I fully understand your reasoning. The good thing is this is a market where we have choices and each person will pick the camera that best fits their needs and budget. So, I could fully understand a different person saying why they might pick the AC90 over the HMC40.


Bob Diaz
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Sure Bob that is how it is, that is why I mentioned that for my personal needs, as you know all brands have in the proline a compact or modular system, and Panasonic has the HMC40,
so is my wish that if some day Panasonic replaces this camera, the do it with compact like HMC40 camera, Is good that they know that not everyone want a big camera but rather
a small one with the PRO build and performance like the HMC40.
 
At first glance, I was pretty excited about the AC90, and even thought about a trade from my HMC40. Now I see things a bit differently. I use the HMC40 as a B-cam and as a stealth-backpack cam to a HPX170. I have always been amazed at how great the little HMC40 can be, it's like the little cam that can. Yet it has flaws, the vf and flipout are pretty bad, but I have reached a peace with this (and added a DP4 for when I can use it). If you want to shoot in low light, that isn't the cams strong suit. And the lack of enough ND without losing resolution is annoying and requires you to carry filters on bright days. EVERY cam has its issues, but damn, given the opportunity, this cam will do some amazing work in a diminutive size and that is its true strength.

Thinking about a change to the AC90, it might produce even better images, reportedly has a good to great flip out, and the rings on the lens would be a nice change. If what Barry says is correct, the cam will work a bit better in low light, but only by a stop or two. Batteries for me is a tossup. But as I first imagined the cam as a replacement to the HMC40, it isn't really so due to the size. I've got a bigger cam already, and don't need another in the same form factor. If I could only have one cam, and was on a tight budget, the AC90 would be a very strong candidate; 2k for a great image, XLR audio and all the rest. But would anyone choose this cam if they had more money given it is about the same form factor as the the other AC and HPX cams?

I chose the HMC for its size and image, the fact that it was a bargain was a bonus. So for me, the AC90 isn't a replacement for the HMC40, just a new cam in the lineup, and I hope they continue both cams because I believe the 40 still has a place at the table. AFWIW, what was Panny thinking leaving off the WFM, it would be a hard sell for me to buy a cam that didn't include that.

Grant
 
ggrantly said:
AFWIW, what was Panny thinking leaving off the WFM, it would be a hard sell for me to buy a cam that didn't include that.

Grant
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I expect that was well thought-out - though it likely has little impact on the size of the cam, it's one of those "pro" features that keeps market segments clearly defined. If you want a WFM, chances are you're doing work that allows you to step up to the next model. WFM and the "not-really-manual" implementation of ND filters (as I understand it) on the 40 and the new 90 are deal breakers for me.
 
Michael Carter said:
I expect that was well thought-out - though it likely has little impact on the size of the cam, it's one of those "pro" features that keeps market segments clearly defined. If you want a WFM, chances are you're doing work that allows you to step up to the next model. WFM and the "not-really-manual" implementation of ND filters (as I understand it) on the 40 and the new 90 are deal breakers for me.
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The way the ND is handled on the '40 and '90 makes sense, considering the tiny size of the chips. You would always want to start adding ND before closing the iris much anyway, due to diffraction. With the iris and auto ND tied together, the camera can keep the physical aperture at around the optimum size for maximum sharpness. Any camera with 1/4" chips is likely to have a similar system.

Agreed on the lack of waveform, though. That's probably a deliberate omission to protect the AC-130. Panny appears to have decided that a waveform monitor is a "big boy" feature now, requiring more money. Adding one certainly wouldn't make the camera any bigger, as it's just software. It's too bad, because otherwise the AC-90 would be a near-perfect camera for greenscreen work. The waveform is extremely useful for lighting your screen properly. You can see exactly where you need to add light or remove it.
 
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Wesley Byram said:
Agreed on the lack of waveform, though. That's probably a deliberate omission to protect the AC-130. Panny appears to have decided that a waveform monitor is a "big boy" feature now, requiring more money. Adding one certainly wouldn't make the camera any bigger, as it's just software. It's too bad, because otherwise the AC-90 would be a near-perfect camera for greenscreen work. The waveform is extremely useful for lighting your screen properly. You can see exactly where you need to add light or remove it.
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Hack?
 
Michael Carter said:
I expect that was well thought-out - though it likely has little impact on the size of the cam, it's one of those "pro" features that keeps market segments clearly defined. If you want a WFM, chances are you're doing work that allows you to step up to the next model. WFM and the "not-really-manual" implementation of ND filters (as I understand it) on the 40 and the new 90 are deal breakers for me.
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Michael,

You are right about the WFM on the AC90. But they did put it on the older HMC40, but they probably needed to change strategy for the 90.

The ND Thingy, as I've come to call it, actually works quite well with one caveat; the ND ability isn't strong enough to cover bright outdoor light situations. Of course the idea is to keep the aperture at no more than about f4 (the lens sweet spot), which it does, until the ND Thingy runs out of ND. After that, the ND thingy begins to close down the iris and degrades the IQ. It is a cam quirk that owners have had to deal with since once you get past f5.6 IQ goes south pretty quickly, as most small chip cams do. The only real solution is to carry ND filters when working outside on bright days. A .6 and or .9 is all that is needed, or if you prefer, a circular polarizer (not a bad choice at times) does the trick. This is a PITA, but in the big picture (pun intended) is no different than many expensive pro cams and lenses which have no ND at all. Why Panny didn't add more ND to the system is mystifying, it's like they designed the cam indoors, in a little dim room with no sunlight....

If you had a FS100, you wouldn't have any ND at all, just sayin.

Grant
 
ggrantly said:
Michael,

You are right about the WFM on the AC90. But they did put it on the older HMC40, but they probably needed to change strategy for the 90.

The ND Thingy, as I've come to call it, actually works quite well with one caveat; the ND ability isn't strong enough to cover bright outdoor light situations. Of course the idea is to keep the aperture at no more than about f4 (the lens sweet spot), which it does, until the ND Thingy runs out of ND. After that, the ND thingy begins to close down the iris and degrades the IQ. It is a cam quirk that owners have had to deal with since once you get past f5.6 IQ goes south pretty quickly, as most small chip cams do. The only real solution is to carry ND filters when working outside on bright days. A .6 and or .9 is all that is needed, or if you prefer, a circular polarizer (not a bad choice at times) does the trick. This is a PITA, but in the big picture (pun intended) is no different than many expensive pro cams and lenses which have no ND at all. Why Panny didn't add more ND to the system is mystifying, it's like they designed the cam indoors, in a little dim room with no sunlight....

If you had a FS100, you wouldn't have any ND at all, just sayin.

Grant
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Agreed, though I don't find the somewhat underpowered built in ND to be a problem in actual practice. When I'm shooting under bright sunlight, I almost always have a polarizing filter on anyway. I just like the way it keeps the sky and reflections under control.
 
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