Why do you continue to shoot video ( off topic )

V

vision_filmz

Carbonite Member
Im tired of the low paying clients and all of the headaches associated with this industry. If you could work , make money and g home it would be great, BUT things never turn out that way. You run into clients that want the world and only want to pay you peanuts, then you spend weeks trying to get it rite then when your math adds up you realize your working just to survive. So to my dslr community I ask you, why do you do this. Also have you ever thought about quitting, because that's what I feel like doing.


Lack of Money, clients that are never satisfied and basically too much work
 
Sounds like you've got much bigger issues than can be contained in this thread/forum (and certainly stuff that isn't unique to DSLR users).
 
DavidBeier said:
Sounds like you've got much bigger issues than can be contained in this thread/forum (and certainly stuff that isn't unique to DSLR users).
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COme on Man, so you have never encountered these problems? All of your shoots are greatly payed and your phone doesn't stop ringing for amazing high end paying jobs?


This thread is for us to vent and also answer a question as to what keeps you motivated.
 
Everyone has clients like that, and unfortunately the problem lies with you started working for them for cheap and now can't justify charging them more. Every industry has this. Simple answer is state you're running a business and people need to pay for your time, or stop working for them. With hard work comes respect from your client and then they will have no problem paying properly, these are the good clients. It just takes hard work to get yourself to a point where you can turn away work that doesnt pay your time properly. And don't expect it to come in a few months, it can take years!
 
there have always been and are always going to be cheapskate and neurotic clients out there. our challenge is to be able to identify them straight away and either manage the project or simply decline their business in the first place.

i wonder though, if people arent often creating their own hell? you frequently talk about how the low price of HDSLRs has enabled people to "follow their dreams"
well, these dreamers are often inexperienced and wont have the knowledge, language or sales / networking skills in place to just go out there and land viable "accounts".

they are under some impression that because xyz director has a 5D, they can get one too and automatically go out there and get work.

they soon realize its not that easy and they wind up going on craigslist looking for "gigs" and finding low-budget music videos for go-nowhere artists, wanna-be reality shows or a one-off $500 spot for joes muffler shop. but when joes spot winds up on public access or just sitting on youtube and when joe doesnt see an immediate return on his $500 expense. he isnt going to be coming back for repeat business. and is probably going to be telling all his housepainter and lanscape business friends that it was just a waste of money. and unless youre in a major market, there are only so many times you can do this and still make a living.

if someone is having repeating problems with this kinda thing. its probably smart to evaluate:
- how they package themselves
- to whom they present themselves
- if they really have the mindset to be a freelance professional.

it aint for everyone. and even the best of us sometimes question ourselves. hell, last week i was in the final stages of becoming a high school graphic design teacher. until a client called with a project that was too good to decline ; )
 
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At risk of getting killed -- this is part and parcel to the "DSLR revolution". People think that because the camera is cheap, they can now charge lower prices. Well, listen -- the absolute worst clients are the low-cost clients. They will do exactly what you're experiencing - drain you dry, and resent you every step of the way.

Working primarily with low-cost clients is a miserable existence, and you're experiencing that firsthand.

The very best thing you could do, for your sanity, is to raise your prices. Don't be the budget guy. Don't be the guy that the no-dollar clients go for. The kind of clients who pay more, are usually less demanding -- as long as you deliver the goods. No-budget clients will micromanage you to hell, and will resent you for every penny they give you. Higher-budget clients are more used to trusting that if they want the best, they have to pay for it -- so you'd better be the best, but if you are, life will be soooo much better. Best thing I ever did for my business was raise my prices and quit trying to compete on price. It is infinitely superior to work the occasional corporate job for $10k or $20k, and have the client LOVE you and PRAISE you and recommend you to everyone they know... than it is to grind out another $500 music video or local mom 'n' pop store, week after week after week.

For years, people have been attacking me for dissing the DSLRs, saying that I'm "scared" because they're going to "take my job" -- and it's funny because, hey, if those are the jobs the DSLR shooter is taking, please -- by all means, take them. Take them all. My beef with the DSLR has been that it's a subpar product, and it has skewed the market terribly, and now those of you who are seeing the ramifications are hating what you're stuck with. (interestingly enough, most still praising the DSLR, and still not understanding the video camera and what it does for you).

And hey, trust me, I do understand the appeal of the DSLR, I've owned three, it's such a compelling value, but -- it's a false promise. Because the camera body is cheap, people start thinking that hey, a $150 wedding shoot or a $300 music video is "making good money". And in reality, it's going to eat you alive and make you hate life.

It's a trap. Don't fall into that trap.

Can you get good-paying jobs with a DSLR? Sure. Many people have done high-end weddings and even corporate jobs on DSLRs. But -- they're not charging dirt prices because the camera's cheap! They used the DSLR in those instances because they liked the aesthetics. In other words, the DSLR didn't get them that job -- THEY got themselves that job. For whatever reason, they chose to use a DSLR for it. And I would dare say that most of the guys in that league are at the tail end of using DSLRs, if not done with them completely, now that there are more pro options out there that let them get the same aesthetic without the compromises.

Don't be the cheap guy. And -- look, if it ends up that you can't land any better-paying clients and you have to quit, well, that's what you're talking about doing anyway, right? So really, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

So to my dslr community I ask you, why do you do this.
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Well, I guess that's the main thing right there. Why are you in the "dslr community"? Why aren't you in the video business? If you're a businessman, use the right tool for the job and do the job and be in the business. If you're a "member of the DSLR community", meaning that you're identifying yourself with a particular product, then I think you're pigeonholing yourself and setting yourself up for a lot of pain -- pain which you're already experiencing.
 
Well i've never thought of quitting becasue i dont want to do anythng else...BUT i do have alot of lowball people who i dont even bother to consider. I shot a music video over the weekend that was low paying BUT i accepted it knowing that and knowing the positives that would come out of it. I liked the song which was one reason i accepted it, and i see it going far. I could see it as being advantageous to me. Also made links through it and the experience was well worth it. I stayed at a bomb ass location also that i could only afford when i start rolling in dough... :) for the weekend. So sometimes u have to take the good with the bad. SOMETIMES :)
 
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its funny dslr's have taken so much flack...not 2 sure when people will realize its just a camera. I know i got it because its cheaper and more affordable for ME. that didnt touch my pricing. Its ME and my time that are being used, whatever i choose to shoot on is up to me. they came to me for a reason in the first place.
 
jambredz said:
not 2 sure when people will realize its just a camera. I know i got it because its cheaper and more affordable for ME. that didnt touch my pricing. Its ME and my time that are being used, whatever i choose to shoot on is up to me. they came to me for a reason in the first place.
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That's the right attitude. That's exactly the right attitude. That's what was puzzling to me when vizion_filmz was addressing "my dslr community" -- because why is the dslr what you're identifying with? It's just a camera. You should be in the video business, not in the dslr community.
 
When I take on a client, I often rent the equipment I need and factor that into my fee. I am far more concerned with getting the best image possible within the constraints of the budget and the project to 1) Meet my end of the deal at a level of output that is equal to my personal fee, 2) Achieve the highest quality possible, 3) Please the client enough that they will have a positive interpretation of me as a professional, disseminating my reputation to other potential clients.

I own a DSLR and a hell of a lot of kit, but I would much rather rent two HVX200's, the tripods, audio gear, and other essentials for an event shoot than try to make it all happen on my "awesome 7D."

Barry's right; you have to think like a businessman, not a camera-owner. A consumer defines himself by what he consumes, but a businessman's chief interest is in creating revenue regardless of what brand's product he has to consume to do it.
 
I thought I was alone. HAven't been sleeping. Can't eat. It's getting serious. The whole town's ablaze with these things. I decided last week to pack up and leave. I'm hopefully going back to the US, but this was an eye-opener. I took a bartending job for 6 months and it was more fun. I took some crazy hours though. Still, I don't know how I'd feel quitting the video, or the audio or any of that good stuff. Hang in there OP I guess? Barry nailed it? I guess? Yeah that was pretty on point.
 
Barry_Green said:
At risk of getting killed -- this is part and parcel to the "DSLR revolution". People think that because the camera is cheap, they can now charge lower prices. Well, listen -- the absolute worst clients are the low-cost clients. They will do exactly what you're experiencing - drain you dry, and resent you every step of the way.

Working primarily with low-cost clients is a miserable existence, and you're experiencing that firsthand.

The very best thing you could do, for your sanity, is to raise your prices. Don't be the budget guy. Don't be the guy that the no-dollar clients go for. The kind of clients who pay more, are usually less demanding -- as long as you deliver the goods. No-budget clients will micromanage you to hell, and will resent you for every penny they give you. Higher-budget clients are more used to trusting that if they want the best, they have to pay for it -- so you'd better be the best, but if you are, life will be soooo much better. Best thing I ever did for my business was raise my prices and quit trying to compete on price. It is infinitely superior to work the occasional corporate job for $10k or $20k, and have the client LOVE you and PRAISE you and recommend you to everyone they know... than it is to grind out another $500 music video or local mom 'n' pop store, week after week after week.

For years, people have been attacking me for dissing the DSLRs, saying that I'm "scared" because they're going to "take my job" -- and it's funny because, hey, if those are the jobs the DSLR shooter is taking, please -- by all means, take them. Take them all. My beef with the DSLR has been that it's a subpar product, and it has skewed the market terribly, and now those of you who are seeing the ramifications are hating what you're stuck with. (interestingly enough, most still praising the DSLR, and still not understanding the video camera and what it does for you).

And hey, trust me, I do understand the appeal of the DSLR, I've owned three, it's such a compelling value, but -- it's a false promise. Because the camera body is cheap, people start thinking that hey, a $150 wedding shoot or a $300 music video is "making good money". And in reality, it's going to eat you alive and make you hate life.

It's a trap. Don't fall into that trap.

Can you get good-paying jobs with a DSLR? Sure. Many people have done high-end weddings and even corporate jobs on DSLRs. But -- they're not charging dirt prices because the camera's cheap! They used the DSLR in those instances because they liked the aesthetics. In other words, the DSLR didn't get them that job -- THEY got themselves that job. For whatever reason, they chose to use a DSLR for it. And I would dare say that most of the guys in that league are at the tail end of using DSLRs, if not done with them completely, now that there are more pro options out there that let them get the same aesthetic without the compromises.

Don't be the cheap guy. And -- look, if it ends up that you can't land any better-paying clients and you have to quit, well, that's what you're talking about doing anyway, right? So really, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.


Well, I guess that's the main thing right there. Why are you in the "dslr community"? Why aren't you in the video business? If you're a businessman, use the right tool for the job and do the job and be in the business. If you're a "member of the DSLR community", meaning that you're identifying yourself with a particular product, then I think you're pigeonholing yourself and setting yourself up for a lot of pain -- pain which you're already experiencing.
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Great Post Barry, now hear me out. Dslrs made it possible for people to own HD cameras. The simple thought of buying an Hpx-170 with P2 cards was well over $4000, something that was truly impossible for many. Along came the t2i camera which made it possible for anyone with under a $1000 to own a great camera. So in a sense this DSLR Community allowed me to grow, get my name out there and ultimately paint a vision that would not have been possible. Why did I do it?

I did it for the love of Music and working with artists who couldn't afford big budgets. I did videos for free, videos for $500 , videos for $1000 and videos for even more. My frustration came from people seem like they are never happy. This really wasn't specific to Dslrs as I could easily be experiencing this with any camera. Corporate jobs are great, but you dealing with No Name artists who think they are somebody and try to micro manage everything can drive you crazy.

Overall I think this is an excellent thread and I salute the Veterans in this game. I do not want to quit, but I do want to be happier with what I do. My first step is raising prices and then finding the best way to use these Dslr cameras. After that I will be upgrading to something a lot better. Thank you everyone & I hope this thread can continue!!
 
Vision i'd say before you upgrade, to squeeze your current cam/cams till they are no longer doing what you need. research and study and try to up your skills (i speak to myself as i speak to you). i say that because i was considering the whole fs100 jump...and while I know i'd luv that..for me to get that is a stretch right now, when i could really study and learn and blow away most stuff less skilled people can do on hundred thousand dollar cameras. invest in your brain and skills...books...blogs...workshops...linking with like minded people ect. thats wayyy less costly than some gear and the rewards are 10 fold.
 
vision_filmz said:
My frustration came from people seem like they are never happy.
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Its important during your initial client meeting that you are being yourself and that your client understand EXACTLY the kind of work you do. I'm sure you're aware of all this, but for example, let's say you're covering a wedding. Your style is more about capturing natural moments rather than the posed, glitzy glamour shot. Your client MUST be aware of this kind of style you shoot. After the meeting is done give them a week to think about it, don't let them make a decision on the spot. Don't sell yourself short if your work and style is good. If they come back to you within that week that means they know what they're getting and know what to expect. Then you can fax over that contract ASAP.

I guess long story short, if you're work is worth the money, don't lower your prices. EVER. Word will spread around, "hey this guy will give you a great deal." Instead, for incentive throw in something extra, maybe some miniature keychain size photos or a video file already converted to some extra format like for an iphone or something.
 
jambredz said:
Vision i'd say before you upgrade, to squeeze your current cam/cams till they are no longer doing what you need. research and study and try to up your skills (i speak to myself as i speak to you). i say that because i was considering the whole fs100 jump...and while I know i'd luv that..for me to get that is a stretch right now, when i could really study and learn and blow away most stuff less skilled people can do on hundred thousand dollar cameras. invest in your brain and skills...books...blogs...workshops...linking with like minded people ect. thats wayyy less costly than some gear and the rewards are 10 fold.
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This.

jambredz gets it exactly right.

Disassociate yourself from gear, and invest in your brain and your skills. Get yourself to where you are comfortable that you can deliver a better product, and start charging more for it. You can continue to use the gear you've got, until it is getting in your way and hampering your work. When that happens, upgrade to something better. But don't bother upgrading until it's the equipment that's holding you back.
 
Along came the t2i camera which made it possible for anyone with under a $1000 to own a great camera.
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no it didnt. and i think that assumption is a component of the problems youre having...

what the $1000 buy-in got them was a camera that:
- has a 12-ish minute clip length
- is prone to issues with patterned objects
- turns lamp posts and columns into springs when the camera is moved side to side

regardless of sharpness or dynamic range, thats NOT a "great camera" in my book.
but to someone with limited experience or just desperate to get into the business, it might be

I did it for the love of Music and working with artists who couldn't afford big budgets.
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ok, so you got into the video business because you love music?
it's starting to sound to me like you may have come into the game for the wrong reason with an unrealistically narrow focus and with an incomplete set of expectations.

it's no wonder you're frustrated
 
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regardless of sharpness or dynamic range, thats NOT a "great camera" in my book.
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Right, in YOUR book. But I love that little camera. And I realize it's severely flawed, it's a subpar product, but damn the whole DSLR thing made shooting fun for me again! Again, Barry coming through with the right wording…I like the aesthetics, and so do my clients. Now, if I'm doing a corporate gig, I'll shoot with whatever they give me. But for my own small budget stuff, I love the t2i.

OTOH, this thread is causing me to re-think my current strategy. The t2i was me testing the waters last year but how time flies. Now I need to step up my game. Plan B: Hire a DOP with better gear, be the producer and charge accordingly. :Drogar-Happy(DBG):

Now as for the OP….burnout. Yes, I hear you & I'm with you. Bottom-feeder clients suck. I'd have to see a reel or get more info on what kind of clients you're dealing with. Best of luck.
 
WILBUR'S 5 STEPS TO AWESOME SEMINAR!!!!!!1111one!!11!!


1) Eat poo, get pissed on and bend over now and then like every other young Tree out there.

2) Apply (1) until you shoot some roots, have a fantastic showreel and have clients with your your picture on their shrines.

3) If you continue to suck at your craft, go back to (1) until you have achieved (2).

4) When you have achieved (2), upgrade fees and eat less poo.

5) If (4) does not work, either go back to (1) or choose a different career cos you simply suck at this one.


BONUS CONTENT:
If you're gonna do stuff for free or dirt cheap, have the wisdom to chose stuff that can make you look awesome.
As a matter of fact, get out there and offer to shoot a good band's video, shoot a mock ad or two and get some stuff on your reel that doesn't look like it was filmed by a one-armed raver at pocket protectors convention!


EVEN BONUSER CONTENT!!!!11!!1!!
If you cannot polish a Turd, you have no business being anywhere near the professional creative services industry!


AND ONE MORE THING:
Success tends to start at the exact point excuses get buried!

Thank you.
Books on sale at the back, I'll be sitting at the table signing cleavages and stuff.
 
Whenever I get that nagging micro-management type client, I think of this:
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell

I've actually shown it to a couple of clients that were starting up with me... I said "don't be THIS guy", half jokingly. And you know what? They backed off. But yes, I agree with what Barry said as far as setting yourself up for all that.

Meanwhile, this thread really doesn't belong here, but since its slightly related to DSLRs, I'll let it stay for now. Next time you want to vent about the biz, take it to the appropriate forum section.
 
I do it because I genuinely enjoy it. If business isn't feasible for you within your area, perhaps just do it as a hobby? Just depends on your market I suppose.

Barry's right. I disagree with him that the DSLR's are more harmful than they are good or that they're a "false promise" when you consider what you're getting for the price (I suppose maybe once I have the budget for a 15,000 dollar camera, I'll agree with him), but I agree completely that people like us shouldn't associate themselves with a particular product. Use what's best for the job and within your budget. As he said, that's for consumers, and we are not consumers.
 
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