Justyn
Veteran
I stand corrected but would like to see it in person. Do you guys have plans for more bootcamps? events in Florida?
Why can't SD cards replace p2?
- Thread starter Bucknfl
- Start date
I stand corrected but would like to see it in person. Do you guys have plans for more bootcamps? events in Florida?
studio1972
Well-known member
Got to hand it to you Barry, You've got cahones doing that! I picked the oldest SD card I had which is probably worth about next to nothing. :beer:
http://masterchong.com/v3/media-storage/panasonic-announces-support-of-sdxc.html
Panasonic supports the announcement and development of the SDXC standard and plans to launch a 64 GB massive capacity SDXC Memory Card, which will have more capacity than the currently available 50 GB dual layer Blu-ray Disc.
A Panasonic SDXC camera might be available sooner than we think.
Panasonic supports the announcement and development of the SDXC standard and plans to launch a 64 GB massive capacity SDXC Memory Card, which will have more capacity than the currently available 50 GB dual layer Blu-ray Disc.
A Panasonic SDXC camera might be available sooner than we think.
BobDiaz
The Professor
I'm coming in a bit late to this thread, I've been busy with my classes, but let me add a few points here.
It is possible to design and build a camera with several SDHC slots configured as a RAID-0 configuration, BUT it would not be practical.
Class 6 cards have a minimum speed of 6 MB (megabytes) per second.
6 MB per second x 8 bits to the byte = 48 Mb (megabits) per second (Notice that the lower case b is bits and the upper case B is Bytes.)
1 SDHC card = 48 Mb / second
2 SDHC cards = 96 Mb / second
3 SDHC cards = 144 Mb / second
4 SDHC cards = 192 Mb / second
5 SDHC cards = 240 Mb / second
6 SDHC cards = 288 Mb / second
7 SDHC cards = 336 Mb / second
8 SDHC cards = 384 Mb / second
In order to meet the 100 Mb / second write speed of DVCPRO-HD, we would need a minimum of 3 cards. However, this system would NOT be fast enough to read the data after it's written. P2 does a read after the write to verify that the data was written correctly. If a failure does occur, it will try a few more times.
In order to meet the 100 Mb / second write speed with a 100 Mb / second read after write, 5 SDHC cards would be required. However, this arrangement would quickly fall behind, if a write failure does occur and a second write is required. In order to deal with a second write after a failure, 7 or better yet, 8 cards would be needed.
Even with 3, 5, 7, or 8 cards, if one card is lost or damaged, 100% of the video is lost. Sorry, but you can't read the video without all the cards.
Another thing about RAID-0 is that the cards would need to be inserted back into the camera in the same order they were first inserted. Even when 2 cards are swapped around, the data is scrambled. We would need a special card reader to read this set of cards into the computer.
This type of system would be highly prone to human error and because of the potential for human error, have a high failure rate.
So, as I said, possible yes, practical no.
Bob Diaz
It is possible to design and build a camera with several SDHC slots configured as a RAID-0 configuration, BUT it would not be practical.
Class 6 cards have a minimum speed of 6 MB (megabytes) per second.
6 MB per second x 8 bits to the byte = 48 Mb (megabits) per second (Notice that the lower case b is bits and the upper case B is Bytes.)
1 SDHC card = 48 Mb / second
2 SDHC cards = 96 Mb / second
3 SDHC cards = 144 Mb / second
4 SDHC cards = 192 Mb / second
5 SDHC cards = 240 Mb / second
6 SDHC cards = 288 Mb / second
7 SDHC cards = 336 Mb / second
8 SDHC cards = 384 Mb / second
In order to meet the 100 Mb / second write speed of DVCPRO-HD, we would need a minimum of 3 cards. However, this system would NOT be fast enough to read the data after it's written. P2 does a read after the write to verify that the data was written correctly. If a failure does occur, it will try a few more times.
In order to meet the 100 Mb / second write speed with a 100 Mb / second read after write, 5 SDHC cards would be required. However, this arrangement would quickly fall behind, if a write failure does occur and a second write is required. In order to deal with a second write after a failure, 7 or better yet, 8 cards would be needed.
Even with 3, 5, 7, or 8 cards, if one card is lost or damaged, 100% of the video is lost. Sorry, but you can't read the video without all the cards.
Another thing about RAID-0 is that the cards would need to be inserted back into the camera in the same order they were first inserted. Even when 2 cards are swapped around, the data is scrambled. We would need a special card reader to read this set of cards into the computer.
This type of system would be highly prone to human error and because of the potential for human error, have a high failure rate.
So, as I said, possible yes, practical no.
Bob Diaz
studio1972
Well-known member
Hi Bob,
This is the reason that SDXC cards were mentioned as they have a similar performance (or better) than P2.
BobDiaz
The Professor
The SDXC cards are about to come out, but I don't think that are shipping just yet.
This is new technology, so likely it will be very good, but it really needs to be out there a while to say for sure.
IFSDXC can prove itself as a solid and reliable media, it could be the future direction for recording media. For now, it's just a paper specification we are looking at.
Bob Diaz
I went to the HD Expo in LA yesterday and asked Jan why Panasonic doesn't have an SD card option for the new HPX300. She then took a P2 card and beat it to death on the edge of a table, then threw it down the hall, smacked it on the table some more and put it back in a cam and ....it worked just fine! She then said "try that with a SXS card". Amazing demo.
P2's adavntage would seem to be in its durability and reliability.
studio1972
Well-known member
I suggest you have a look at page 3 of this thread (post 29).
On-Camera RAID w/SDHC
On-Camera RAID w/SDHC
Someone earlier said that a P2 Card was simply a set of SDHC cards with some RAID logic onboard. If this is the case, then you could accomplish everything that a P2 card does by moving the RAID controller on to the camera, even the read after write.
However, you would *probably* have to maintain card insertion ordering, but I know of volume managers that can workaround this - worst case, the system could tell you when the cards are inserted wrong. This would require special volume label options during the formatting process. For archiving purposes you should really label the cards (1,2,3, etc.).
If the P2 card is NOT an array of off-the-shelf SDHC parts, then all bets are off and my comments do not apply.
I think the biggest pain in the butt using on-camera RAID with SDHC cards would be in the ingest process. You could no longer take the SDHC card out of the camera and plug it into your blu-ray player or TV and play the video. And you couldn't use the USB-SDHC readers to offload your content to your Mac (or other PC), because no other system would have a similar software or hardware RAID capability to read the cards formatted and written by the camera. You would be forced to offload your video from existing camera ports (like USB, firewire, or whatever).
Randy
On-Camera RAID w/SDHC
Someone earlier said that a P2 Card was simply a set of SDHC cards with some RAID logic onboard. If this is the case, then you could accomplish everything that a P2 card does by moving the RAID controller on to the camera, even the read after write.
However, you would *probably* have to maintain card insertion ordering, but I know of volume managers that can workaround this - worst case, the system could tell you when the cards are inserted wrong. This would require special volume label options during the formatting process. For archiving purposes you should really label the cards (1,2,3, etc.).
If the P2 card is NOT an array of off-the-shelf SDHC parts, then all bets are off and my comments do not apply.
I think the biggest pain in the butt using on-camera RAID with SDHC cards would be in the ingest process. You could no longer take the SDHC card out of the camera and plug it into your blu-ray player or TV and play the video. And you couldn't use the USB-SDHC readers to offload your content to your Mac (or other PC), because no other system would have a similar software or hardware RAID capability to read the cards formatted and written by the camera. You would be forced to offload your video from existing camera ports (like USB, firewire, or whatever).
Randy
Now that I think about this, I think Panasonic did this the correct way with the P2 card. However, as long as they maintain their price point for these cards, they'll never be able to answer Sony's price/performance, even with the new HPX300.
I also went to the HD Expo in LA where Jan was presenting on the HPX300. The street price is around $8500 and the dealers were saying it was an "EX3" killer. It may be technologically superior, but by the time you configure an HPX300 that's usable it's well over 10K (battery pack, p2 card(s), etc). The Sony user community has an answer for making SxS affordable. The market needs one or more other sources for P2 cards to drive the price down to something reasonable. I really like the HPX300, but the cost of media is borderline-unconscionable. Currently Panasonic is offering you a Ferrari and charging you $100/gallon for the gas.
Randy
Mike Harvey
Veteran
You're assuming that the principle market for P2 is for the sub $10k crowd. It's not. Sony doesn't have single full size camera that uses SxS. They only offer two in the sub $10k, with JVC offering another one or two soon. The principle line for P2 is broadcast, where the HPX500 is a lower end camera. Something like 330 TV stations, plus most of the networks, plus many production houses in the U.S. alone use P2. Sony doesn't have an answer for that with SxS. For most organizations that buy P2, $11k for the HPX300 fully loaded is cheap.
Also, as you stated, it's the Sony user community that came up with the SxS/SD card workaround. That is not the same as Sony itself, and I don't think it's something they intended or would recommend. It works, but it's not something I think I would try if I were shooting news or a documentary or a show for Discovery. The SxS/SD workaround can't handle some of the features of the EX1/EX3 like overcranking as it is, it could never handle AVC-Intra... a big selling point for the HPX300.
Really, on paper the extra $2k or $3k for a loaded HPX300 over an EX3 is a bargain.
BTW, she has that p2 card for sale on ebay right for 80% off.
Wish she did, Id buy it.
I dont want to get into the p2 vs sdhc card debate. Just wanted to say Ive seen some beautiful shots out of the 150. Id guarantee - if you gave the 150 and 170 to the same guy - lets say a talented shooter - no one could tell jack at the end about what shots came from where. P2 one side - sdhc the other, choose your poison and move on.
combatentropy
Veteran
CompactFlash
CompactFlash
The biggest gripe I have about the SD card --- which I bet the news shooters share --- is mundane: it is just too small. Too easy to lose, too hard to mark.
P2 is almost the perfect size, but too expensive. $1,400, street, for 32 GB.
CompactFlash seems to me the best balance of features:
- commodity media, so it's cheaper and you could go to Walgreens or Best Buy in an emergency
- used by professional photographers, so some manufacturers will always make them with decent quality. You can also find stories of them being found under water or on the street and still work a year later or something . . .
- bigger than SD (although still almost too small for average fingers to fumble with and write labels on)
- CFast is the new CompactFlash: 375 MB/sec. (well, that's the bus speed, we still will have to wait for the actual flash memory inside to get to that level, maybe in a few years)
CompactFlash
The biggest gripe I have about the SD card --- which I bet the news shooters share --- is mundane: it is just too small. Too easy to lose, too hard to mark.
P2 is almost the perfect size, but too expensive. $1,400, street, for 32 GB.
CompactFlash seems to me the best balance of features:
- commodity media, so it's cheaper and you could go to Walgreens or Best Buy in an emergency
- used by professional photographers, so some manufacturers will always make them with decent quality. You can also find stories of them being found under water or on the street and still work a year later or something . . .
- bigger than SD (although still almost too small for average fingers to fumble with and write labels on)
- CFast is the new CompactFlash: 375 MB/sec. (well, that's the bus speed, we still will have to wait for the actual flash memory inside to get to that level, maybe in a few years)
DavidNJ
Carbonite Member
P2 is 5 years old. In those days SD didn't have the capacity or the speed.
In 2009, SDHC is good for a lot, and there are CF cards cable of over 100Mb/s. The latest are specified for over 250Mb/s. So P2 is a thing of the past.
On the EX1/EX3, people already use MxM adapters to use regular SDHC.
It should be possible to have an adapter to use a class 6 SDHC for recording 40Mb/s DVCProHD, but I don't know if any one has done it.
The Canon 5D MII and the Flash XDR show the way for the next generation of prosumer devices: 40-100+Mb/s MPEG4 Part 10 data streams from a 4/3rds, APS-C, or full frame 35mm heavily oversampled sensor through high quality interchangable glass. Whether we use prisms to 3 sensors or a Bayer filter to one, and if the rolling shutter is replace with a frame shutter are open issues.
In 2009, SDHC is good for a lot, and there are CF cards cable of over 100Mb/s. The latest are specified for over 250Mb/s. So P2 is a thing of the past.
On the EX1/EX3, people already use MxM adapters to use regular SDHC.
It should be possible to have an adapter to use a class 6 SDHC for recording 40Mb/s DVCProHD, but I don't know if any one has done it.
The Canon 5D MII and the Flash XDR show the way for the next generation of prosumer devices: 40-100+Mb/s MPEG4 Part 10 data streams from a 4/3rds, APS-C, or full frame 35mm heavily oversampled sensor through high quality interchangable glass. Whether we use prisms to 3 sensors or a Bayer filter to one, and if the rolling shutter is replace with a frame shutter are open issues.
combatentropy
Veteran
interesting point
I pretty much agree. Only, for me at least, the open issues are closed. Single Bayer, global shutter chip.
studio1972
Well-known member
The problem with CF cards is that the pins inside the camera (or reader) that insert into the card are actually quite susceptible to being bent. The SD form factor seems to be more robust in this way.
I think it is likely that SD cards will replace CF in pro stills cameras over the next few years. I understand your point about them being too small though, but at least the plastic cases they come in are about the same size as the ones for CF cards.
Hidef1080
Well-known member
I had to send off one of my dslr's for repair because someone tried to put in the cf card the wrong way.
That same person killed one of my card readers in the same way.
It was at that time that I really saw the better design of sd cards.
I can only hope the pro level dslr's move over to sd's but I don't think they ever will.
Heres what i like about P2:
The 32gig card, is a great size. hour plus recording in 720, 33 min of 1080 DVCPRO, and about the same in avc INTRA..... INTRA DAMMIT.
Sure its 1500+$, but think about it like this. Panasonic is NOT going anywhere, and they have dedicated themselves to P2 technology. This means that for the next 5-10 years, that 32gig P2 card will be use able in every camera they make. I can pull it out of the Hpx170, nad stick it into the Aj2700, or the HPX300.... SAME CARD. No more, oh i need DVCPROHD tape.... Or Dv Tape, Or whatever. Same Media, that wont go obsolete for years.....
It works AMAZINGLY well. its secure, and its become so automatic that i dont think about it as a point of failure. im more worried about data management...... not the card failing. The P2 system is designed to fail safe itself as much as possible. Panasonic engineers spent time to help protect your footage. i appreciate that.
i tried doing the cheapo route on a EX1 shoot... using the Adapter and card. fail. Epic Fail.
lost footage allover the place. i had to stick with the SxS cards. The SD technology may well catch up, but that will just mean faster P2 cards that may be a bit cheaper in the future...
and FYI i own 2x 8Gigs. Been shooting with them for 3 years now, without ever really feeling like i need bigger cards....
The 32gig card, is a great size. hour plus recording in 720, 33 min of 1080 DVCPRO, and about the same in avc INTRA..... INTRA DAMMIT.
Sure its 1500+$, but think about it like this. Panasonic is NOT going anywhere, and they have dedicated themselves to P2 technology. This means that for the next 5-10 years, that 32gig P2 card will be use able in every camera they make. I can pull it out of the Hpx170, nad stick it into the Aj2700, or the HPX300.... SAME CARD. No more, oh i need DVCPROHD tape.... Or Dv Tape, Or whatever. Same Media, that wont go obsolete for years.....
It works AMAZINGLY well. its secure, and its become so automatic that i dont think about it as a point of failure. im more worried about data management...... not the card failing. The P2 system is designed to fail safe itself as much as possible. Panasonic engineers spent time to help protect your footage. i appreciate that.
i tried doing the cheapo route on a EX1 shoot... using the Adapter and card. fail. Epic Fail.
lost footage allover the place. i had to stick with the SxS cards. The SD technology may well catch up, but that will just mean faster P2 cards that may be a bit cheaper in the future...
and FYI i own 2x 8Gigs. Been shooting with them for 3 years now, without ever really feeling like i need bigger cards....