Why can't SD cards replace p2?

Are there any statistics to backup your assertion that P2 memory is more reliable than good quality SDHC cards. I'm not saying you're wrong, but some of the things you said sounded like marketing speak TBH "premium highest-grade memory in the world, stuff you cannot buy because it's not even sold" etc.
Re-read what I wrote and you'll see that it's not my assertion, it's Panasonic's. I said "According to Panasonic, " etc. So in a way you could say that it was marketing-speak, because that's what the marketing dept. of Panasonic gives as reasons for why the cards are more expensive and more reliable, etc.

I'm sure that P2 cards are much better in performance than current SDHC cards, but I have not seen any evidence that SD cards are prone to failure when used for video recording.
I have not encountered any scenarios either, and am a big fan of the HMC150/SDHC memory combination, I think this is exactly what HDV/lower-cost customers have been clamoring for.

Timur can tell you of experiences using SDHC where it failed on him when used in the EX1 with an adapter.

The OP was asking why there are no high end SD card based cameras, I think the Red has CF cards which is the exception. I think the answer is performance, so a SDXC card would provide an answer to that problem and be a realistic alternative to P2 etc.
Performance, yes, but performance across a broad range of meanings, not just data rate. Performance as per reliability, etc. Look at Sony - they created that SxS card, and all they use it for is 35mbps data! Why make an 800mbps card if all you're going to do is record the same caliber data that any generic class 6 SDHC card can store? Obviously there's more to it.

Of course, the cost of P2 cards is less of an issue when you are paying £X0000 for a high end broadcast camera.
That is certainly correct, and goes to the core of "why won't someone make a top-of-the-line uber-camera that records to commodity memory?" Because if someone's going to pay that kind of coin for a top-of-the-line camera, presumably data integrity is at the forefront of their considerations. And they want to be assured that they're going to absolutely, positively, unquestionably, in all circumstances and all places and all times, get the shot.

NBC just bought a scad of HPX170s. The HMC150 is nearly the identical same camera, minus a few features like slow motion and variable frame rates, etc. Features that, frankly, I don't expect NBC would even use. So why would NBC pay more for the 170, and for the P2 workflow, when (for news) you'd think they'd be plenty content with the feature set that the HMC150 does have? I'm not them, I can't answer for them, but I think it's rather indicative that the major broadcast companies (Sony and Panasonic) don't make their top-end gear to record to commodity non-guaranteed memory cards, and the major customers (the aforementioned networks and stations) aren't asking them to.

This does not in any way prove that SDHC cards are unreliable etc.
I'm not saying they are. But... I mean, come on, just look in the Sony forum under the KxS and MxR and MxM and whatever adapters. There's tons of threads where people are trying to find some combination of cards that will work consistently and reliably. I cannot imagine any medium to large customer who would dare to trudge into such waters. They want a guaranteed solution. Panasonic guarantees P2 for all their formats. SDHC they will entrust to AVCHD and only AVCHD. And their customers seem to embrace it.

Again, for those who are willing to go with commodity memory, there's a line of products that's made to work with commodity memory, the AVCCAM lineup. But that isn't the P2 lineup, nor will it be, nor can it be.
 
I'm curious, and I don't mean this as a slight or anything against anyone, but the folks saying that SDHC should replace P2... have any of you ever actually worked in broadcast television?

I'm not sure if this is aimed at me as I actually said that SDHC cannot replace P2 as the bitrate is too low. However, I can say that I have no experience in Broadcast TV. However, I am a chartered Mechanical Engineer, and I can tell you that SD cards are actually very robust mechanically, due to their small size and lack of moving parts. They certainly wouldn't break by dropping them etc. Maybe if you took a hammer and chisel to it, is that what people do in broadcast TV? :)

Pro photographers use both CF and SD cards of course.

For what it's worth, in my previous job I used to be a Quality Manager for a company that makes LED based outdoor advertising. We had computers spinning at 400rpm in an outdoor environment. These used CF cards instead of hard drives due to the harsh environment. We never experienced any mechanical failures with these (although we did have some failures due to exceeding the 1000,000 write cycles). If anything, SD cards would be more robust than CF as the CF card slot has a load of small fragile pins within it.

I honestly don't think that mechanical failure would be a problem with SD cards. Maybe people might lose them through a hole in their pocket though?
 
Arrrgh.. actually just gota call from the editor of the job where the cards hiccup lost the footage.... Sigh*.......
 
I have to agree with Mike Harvey. I spent years in newsrooms and let me say I love my HMC but I would not want SD cards in a news operation. I can just imagine handing off an SD card to a reporter to hop a cab back to the newsroom. Scary, along with the dozens of other possible scenarios like Blackberry/cell phone case magnets and .....
I also think that the NBC decision was not just based on P2 but the whole system from acquisition through post to broadcast and the hardware to support it.
My two cents..
 
Maybe if you took a hammer and chisel to it, is that what people do in broadcast TV? :)

Power drills, actually. And hacksaws when the News Director is having a particularly bad day :)

In optimal conditions, I would trust an good SD card. And if it never left the camera. But I'm thinking of the scenario of where a photog is out shooting a bad car accident on I-5 at 10 pm in a cold, heavy downpour and drops the card onto the concrete and then someone accidentally steps on it. Fairly plausible scenario. I would think a P2 would hold up to that a lot more than SD.

When SDXC becomes more widespread, I wouldn't doubt that you'll see some HPX300-esque cameras shooting to it. The Sony HVR-S270U already shoots to CF. But I have a hard time seeing broadcast moving away from P2, at least not to something that isn't also built like a tank.
 
Re-read what I wrote and you'll see that it's not my assertion, it's Panasonic's. I said "According to Panasonic, " etc. So in a way you could say that it was marketing-speak, because that's what the marketing dept. of Panasonic gives as reasons for why the cards are more expensive and more reliable, etc.

Sorry, maybe I misinterpreted and took that as your opinion and not just Panasonic's. I love Panasonic gear, but from my experience in engineering, what the marketing dept says about a product is generally far away from the reality, especially when it comes to untestable claims like "best memory money can buy" etc.

I have not encountered any scenarios either, and am a big fan of the HMC150/SDHC memory combination, I think this is exactly what HDV/lower-cost customers have been clamoring for.

Me to, I love mine.

I'm not saying they are. But... I mean, come on, just look in the Sony forum under the KxS and MxR and MxM and whatever adapters. There's tons of threads where people are trying to find some combination of cards that will work consistently and reliably. I cannot imagine any medium to large customer who would dare to trudge into such waters. They want a guaranteed solution. Panasonic guarantees P2 for all their formats. SDHC they will entrust to AVCHD and only AVCHD. And their customers seem to embrace it.

Couldn't agree more, but then the EX1 isn't designed to be used with those cards. You can't really blame the cards for those problems.

Again, for those who are willing to go with commodity memory, there's a line of products that's made to work with commodity memory, the AVCCAM lineup. But that isn't the P2 lineup, nor will it be, nor can it be.

True, but I could imagine a high end camera recording to SDXC in a few years time. The specs for these cards are more than adequate. Panasonic have already announced that they are supporting them. High end stills cameras (not to mention loads of other equipment far core costly than video cameras) use "commodity memory" so I don't see any reason in principle why high end video cameras wouldn't use a standard non-proprietary format if it was capable enough to do the job.

Of course, P2 is already here, and will still be around for many years, I'm not denying that.
 
http://www.sdcard.org/developers/tech/sdxc

From SD card association


SDXC
Massive Storage, Incredible Speed
The next-generation SDXC (eXtended Capacity) memory card specification, pending release in Q1 2009, dramatically improves consumers’ digital lifestyles by increasing storage capacity from 32 GB up to 2 TB and increasing SD interface read/write speeds up to 104 MB per second in 2009 with a road map to 300 MB per second. SDXC will provide more portable storage and speed, which are often required to support new features in consumer electronic devices and mobile phones.

A 2 TB SDXC memory card could store an estimated 100 HD movies or 480 hours of HD recording or 136,000 fine-grade photos. Faster bus speeds will enable professional-level recording in compact consumer camcorders and increase the number of frames shot in a second with SDXC cameras.

The faster bus speeds in the SDXC specification also will benefit SDHC, Embedded SD and SDIO specifications.
 
There Heeeeeere!


http://www.i4u.com/article23549.html

Pretec Shows 32GB SDXC Card at PMA
Posted on Wed, 4 Mar 2009 11:00:00 CST | by Shane McGlaun

Pretec unveiled the first SDXC card in the world at PMA this week with a massive 32GB of storage. If 32GB sounds like a lot of storage to you, it is. However, the SDXC format will see the small memory cards getting up to 2TB of storage space.

The cards will have read/write speeds of up to 50MB/s initially and as high as 104MB/s in the future. Pretec says speeds could ultimately go as high as 300MB/sec. The biggest catch to the SDXC format right now is that there are no devices on the market that use the cards.

However, now that cards are showing up I am betting we see products supporting SDXC come from manufacturers. SDXC and SDHC are not compatible with each other. Once speeds get higher and the 2TB capacity debuts I wonder if high0end DSLRs will start to use these small cards rather than the CF cards, they favor now.
 
Putting my money where my mouth is!

Putting my money where my mouth is!

In optimal conditions, I would trust an good SD card. And if it never left the camera. But I'm thinking of the scenario of where a photog is out shooting a bad car accident on I-5 at 10 pm in a cold, heavy downpour and drops the card onto the concrete and then someone accidentally steps on it. Fairly plausible scenario. I would think a P2 would hold up to that a lot more than SD..


OK Mike,

Just for fun I took an SD card out of my camera, took it outside, threw it on the drive, stood on it with my full weight (a lot!), twisted round on it. Then turned the card over and repeated the process.

As you can see, there was some superficial damage. The thin plastic strips between the contacts were shredded, and the plastic was scratched etc.

When I inserted the card into the camera though???






No problem!!!

OK, Now it's your turn with the P2 card :thumbup:
 

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I have to agree with Mike Harvey. I spent years in newsrooms and let me say I love my HMC but I would not want SD cards in a news operation. I can just imagine handing off an SD card to a reporter to hop a cab back to the newsroom. Scary, along with the dozens of other possible scenarios like Blackberry/cell phone case magnets and .....

1. I think magnets effect tapes and HDs, not solid state.
2. If they do, then the P2 card would be just as effected as it is based on the same technology.

I also think that the NBC decision was not just based on P2 but the whole system from acquisition through post to broadcast and the hardware to support it.
My two cents..

Of course you are right, that is how large companies make decisions, they want a consistent proven system.
 
OK Mike,

Just for fun I took an SD card out of my camera, took it outside, threw it on the drive, stood on it with my full weight (a lot!), twisted round on it. Then turned the card over and repeated the process.


I think I mentioned something about it raining... :)
 
Oh gee, wouldn't you know... my boss won't let me take one of the photog's P2 cards and intentionally beat the crap out of it like that. :)

Point made :beer:
 
OK Mike,

Just for fun I took an SD card out of my camera, took it outside, threw it on the drive, stood on it with my full weight (a lot!), twisted round on it. Then turned the card over and repeated the process.

As you can see, there was some superficial damage. The thin plastic strips between the contacts were shredded, and the plastic was scratched etc.

When I inserted the card into the camera though???


No problem!!!

OK, Now it's your turn with the P2 card :thumbup:



Man... That's some good stuff there. lol.... I double dog dare anyone with a P2 card to try that... lol.



Personally I think that my SD cards are literally bulletproof since they go from my camera into their shiny metal 16 card case... and then into my pocket.
 
I recently wrapped a series of shoots with 3 hmc 150 cameras shooting interviews and corporate meetings using over 80 sdhc 8gig cards at $12 each. We save alot of money on media and crew since their were no digital asisstants. In the end we'll get the same quality if it had been done with a 170 or a 200a.

Now if Panasonic would make that 2/3 HMC 1500 .....


Buck, I wanted to wholeheartedly thank you for that job. I was one of the camera perople on this and had a uniquely great time on the shoot. Buck was a true professional... talented, friendly and ultimately a bigtime fan of the 150, like myself. The footage that he pulled out of the camera is nothing short of fantastic and I'd doubt if anyone could really tell what it was shot with. When you get around to delivering this I'm sure the forum would greatly benefit from your knowledge.


I hope to get the pleasure to work with you again and if anyone is in South Florida and needs a good professional, then I highly recommend Buck and his team...


One more shout out to DVXuser... it does bring people together. This is like the 10th project that I've worked on through here and it's been a blessing each and every time.. CHEERS to all!
 
Man... That's some good stuff there. lol.... I double dog dare anyone with a P2 card to try that... lol.

I'm sure the P2's could more than handle it, I just don't know why on earth anyone would want to do that intentionally... other than to prove me wrong :beer:
 
Man... That's some good stuff there. lol.... I double dog dare anyone with a P2 card to try that... lol.
Done it over and over and over and over. Any time any dealer or network or other client has brought me out to talk about why I like the P2 system or what I think its value is, I do that demo. I take a P2 card and throw it on the ground, stomp on it, grind it into the carpet to build up some good static electricity, and dunk it in a glass of water. Then I dry it off, stick it back in the camera and show them that it works.

That's old hat. :thumbsup:
 
Buck, I wanted to wholeheartedly thank you for that job. I was one of the camera perople on this and had a uniquely great time on the shoot. Buck was a true professional... talented, friendly and ultimately a bigtime fan of the 150, like myself. The footage that he pulled out of the camera is nothing short of fantastic and I'd doubt if anyone could really tell what it was shot with. When you get around to delivering this I'm sure the forum would greatly benefit from your knowledge.


I hope to get the pleasure to work with you again and if anyone is in South Florida and needs a good professional, then I highly recommend Buck and his team...


One more shout out to DVXuser... it does bring people together. This is like the 10th project that I've worked on through here and it's been a blessing each and every time.. CHEERS to all!

Your welcome. It was great working with you too.

Buck
 
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