Who would not buy a GH2, if there are no 25p?

[AdrianF]

On the flicker issue, I don't know for sure without trying the GH2, but I would imagine that light flicker will be a problem when shooting 24p. Most low shutter speeds are fine under 25p and the majority of lights, unless of course you're shooting a monitor, then you need to match.

Shooting at 1/50 24p should be fine, but it's not always safe to assume

 

[svecher]

Wow, I didn't realize that. I knew they were 25FPS but I didn't realize they were all encapsulated in a 1080i container. You are right there is absolutely no need for 1080p @ 25 FPS unless you are going to do something like transfer the footage to PAL film.

It appears that Panasonic is just following the Blu-ray specifications. They have pretty much every format covered with the GH2. Don't fault Panasonic if the GH2 doesn't have a format you want. Fault Blu-ray. Or I guess you could fault Panasonic for helping to create the formats of Blu-ray in the first place.

Why the Blu-ray group has left out 25p from it's spec is actually a bit of a mystery as quite a bit of high end drama production for television in EU is shot at 25 fps with film cameras.

I think that 1080/25p is not in BD standard because 1080/50i is. Footage shot in 25p will still have the 25p look when delivered as 50i. Footage shot in 50i will not have the 25p look no matter how much deinterlacing voodoo is applied; that is not with the same amount resolution.

Now to answer mpgxsvcd question, one of the reasons to shoot 25p is to then distribute PAL BDs (50i) that have the "filmic" look. There is no rhyme or reason for Panasonic to "follow Blu-ray specs" when constructing an acquisition device. Let's keep in mind the following standard workflow acquisition -> postprocessing -> delivery.

 

[Lpowell]

There is no rhyme or reason for Panasonic to "follow Blu-ray specs" when constructing an acquisition device. Let's keep in mind the following standard workflow acquisition -> postprocessing -> delivery.

Yes, the sad conclusion is that this highly sophisticated "acquisition device" is ultimately stuck in the consumer morass of broadcast television politics. Blu-Ray/AVC/H.264 is ill-suited for anything other than highly compressed content delivery. It is a terrible choice for real-time encoding of wide dynamic range video. MJPEG, at least, can produce decent results with its quality level maxed out, but it only works in 30p.

If you want to see what kind of image quality the GH1 is actually capable of, shoot some still frames with both JPEG and RAW output. Then compare the results you can obtain in Adobe Camera RAW or Apple Color with the prefabricated JPEG image. This, in addition to variable frame rate, is the chasm that separates any DSLR from RED.

 

[mcsmooth]

The GUESS that there is no 25p due to bluray specs is plain wrong. Please stop spreading that rumor. Why? For starters, the GH1 pulled it off in the AVCHD codec (which always complies with bluray standards). Nobody needs 25p NATIVE files, just 25p sensor output. Encoding 25p over 50i does the same thing, and is done with the HMC camcorders for 1080p25 (and will be with the AF100). Basic concept called pulldown. Don't forget that the DVX100 started it all using the same technique.

It's interesting that all the PAL users on here are begging for 25p, but nobody is asking for 30p (besides that it technically can be done without audio). What drew video nerds to the GH1 in the first place was it's 24p abilities, so if they had to pick one area to improve, they have nailed it with the improved 24p mode. It will be unfortunate if they don't offer 25p/30p and 24mbps (with B Frames) in all frame rates. Not deal breakers to me, just more of a "why not" considering the hardware is easily capable.

If I had to pick a mode to improve, it would be to a higher bit rate (and B-frames) on 720p50/60. 1080p50/60 would have been nice, but simply will not happen.

For people that NEED 25p, keep the GH1 you willingly purchased, or buy one for a fraction of the price as the GH2 gets rolled out.

 

[Rolf Silber]

Just experience... I shot a lot of material with different video dslr´s. As long as you shoot with a shutter speed of 1/50 or 1/100 you´ll get no 50 hz flickering - be it at 24fps, 25fps, 30fps, 50fps or 60fps. If you shoot with 25fps or 50fps.. lets say with a shutter speed of 1/60 or 1/120... definitely flickering in pal lands will show up. That´s all I can say. If you don´t believe it - just give it a go...

Okay. Experience. Good. My experience yesterday in our basement, shooting a cranky old neon-lamp:

25 p 1/60..... no flickering
25 p 1/80..... no flickering
25 p 1/100... no flickering
25 p 1/125... no flickering
25 p 1/200... oooops....... phasing. Light seems start to "creep" slowly, slowly....
25 p 1/400... ditto

So, apart from phasing which is to be expected if you shoot so "sharp" at the edge to the in the ballast incremented 50 Hz impulse so that minuscule differences in the float of net grid frequency, frequency of the ballast, frequency of the camera interact and give you this interesting effect - in classical cinema known from the spoke wheel of a fleeing carriage suddenly seemingly turning backward while going forward - I had no flickering or pumping or whatever we want to call that.

What does that mean for us? It means we talk about synchronity. We talk abot that a 25 p system is always in synchronity with a 50 Hz grid as long as it is not a) unstable in frequency (old pre-quarz film cameras), b) does not enter the realms of phasing or c) has such a short shutter speed that actually you start seeing the lamp pulse but it pulses in an absolutely stable and sync on/off mode.

The same applies to 30 fps in a 60 Hz world - as long as it stays in this world it is "safe at nearly any speed" (rotten ballasts or frequency changes in the grid notwithstanding). When you move from one world into the other - then immediately you have a problem. You will have the camera only stable if you use a shutter speed that is an increment of the net frequency. You can very probably shoot with a 25 p camera at 1/60 shutter outside PAListan, but with 1/50, 1/80, 1/100 you are deep in dooh-dooh.... 1/120 may be save again.

Somebody may want to test this please. And, really - everybody who knows I am wrong and why: Please correct me on this, I want to learn. And (dirty little secret) I really want to buy a GH2 - with 25 p.

The second, constant misconception around here is that we need to make a clear distinction between the acquiring side and the distribution side of video. It is of completely no importance if 24 p or 30 p or 47.314 p is the blu-ray standard for the acquiring side, the production side. Once I have a finished, edited video, I can up- and down convert to whatever I want.

But before doing that, we need a stable standard for producing, editing, fx'ing, mixing, synchronising our material - and, sorry, this standard is in the vast kingdom of PAListan 25 p. And if Panasonic does not start to understand this they are in the same league as Sony with their old Betamax: Ruining a technically much advanced system through a decision of some management samurais who do think in 20th century terms.

 

[AdrianF]

It's interesting that all the PAL users on here are begging for 25p, but nobody is asking for 30p (besides that it technically can be done without audio). What drew video nerds to the GH1 in the first place was it's 24p abilities, so if they had to pick one area to improve, they have nailed it with the improved 24p mode. It will be unfortunate if they don't offer 25p/30p and 24mbps (with B Frames) in all frame rates. Not deal breakers to me, just more of a "why not" considering the hardware is easily capable.

Good point. The 3 amigos of 24, 25 and 30 should be standards really on all hybrid or upper end VDSLRs.

 

[Rolf Silber]

What drew video nerds to the GH1 in the first place was it's 24p abilities...

Yep. And us PAListan-nerds were driven by 25 p. Because this is production standard here.

For people that NEED 25p, keep the GH1 you willingly purchased, or buy one for a fraction of the price as the GH2 gets rolled out.

But why do I think I should not need to do that becasaue I trusted Panasonic to set up a line of product that would give me security for my investments in lenses, the hot-rod adapter and a lot of other things?

 

[chrisso]

For people that NEED 25p, keep the GH1 you willingly purchased, or buy one for a fraction of the price as the GH2 gets rolled out.

Why?
The GH2 has other improvements. Why should I not buy it and enjoy the same benefits as NTSC users, just because I'm PAL and they've (allegedly) given us a different level of service than that afforded NTSC'ers?

 

[svecher]

The second, constant misconception around here is that we need to make a clear distinction between the acquiring side and the distribution side of video. It is of completely no importance if 24 p or 30 p or 47.314 p is the blu-ray standard for the acquiring side, the production side. Once I have a finished, edited video, I can up- and down convert to whatever I want.

But before doing that, we need a stable standard for producing, editing, fx'ing, mixing, synchronising our material - and, sorry, this standard is in the vast kingdom of PAListan 25 p. And if Panasonic does not start to understand this they are in the same league as Sony with their old Betamax: Ruining a technically much advanced system through a decision of some management samurais who do think in 20th century terms.

tipota, distinction between acquisition and distribution side is not a misconception, but "standard procedure." You mentioned yourself a "stable standard for producing, editing [etc] ... this standard is in the vast kingdom of PAListan 25 p" Well, that's acquisition for you. Once footage is produced [acquired] in 25P (or PsF) it can seamlessly flow through post-production and be exported to distribution format of one's choice. The point of contention is that standards devised for distribution side of the video should be distinct and separate from those on acquisition or production side.
"

 

[svecher]

Yes, the sad conclusion is that this highly sophisticated "acquisition device" is ultimately stuck in the consumer morass of broadcast television politics. Blu-Ray/AVC/H.264 is ill-suited for anything other than highly compressed content delivery. It is a terrible choice for real-time encoding of wide dynamic range video. MJPEG, at least, can produce decent results with its quality level maxed out, but it only works in 30p.

If you want to see what kind of image quality the GH1 is actually capable of, shoot some still frames with both JPEG and RAW output. Then compare the results you can obtain in Adobe Camera RAW or Apple Color with the prefabricated JPEG image. This, in addition to variable frame rate, is the chasm that separates any DSLR from RED.

For better or worse, the freight train of technological progress marches on. Transition to digital age in photography was not smooth either and despite early roadblocks (JPEG capture, myriad of RAW formats) we now have very advanced image acquisition devices. Video and cinema production is getting there ...

 

[Rolf Silber]

Hi svecher,

made a fool out of me once again! My construction of English sentences is sometimes hampered by the way sentences can be constructed in the Teutonic language - outcome: Advanced Garbelism. If this doesn't sound to garbled..... indeed I wanted to say what you write.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

Why?
The GH2 has other improvements. Why should I not buy it and enjoy the same benefits as NTSC users, just because I'm PAL and they've (allegedly) given us a different level of service than that afforded NTSC'ers?

I really just wish they would all get together and pick one format. Sadly, that will never happen.

 

[Uwe Lansing]

Okay. Experience. Good. My experience yesterday in our basement, shooting a cranky old neon-lamp:

25 p 1/60..... no flickering
25 p 1/80..... no flickering
25 p 1/100... no flickering
25 p 1/125... no flickering
25 p 1/200... oooops....... phasing. Light seems start to "creep" slowly, slowly....
25 p 1/400... ditto
.....

That´s interesting. I could have sworn that I saw some flickering with 25p at a shutter speed of 1/60. Maybe there was some flickering in my eyes. Ok seriously, it was a really short test (who wants to shoot 25p at 1/60 in europe?). I just made a short search to figure out if I was the only one with such faulty eyes, - I´ve found only 1 person: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?210759-Shutter-speed-for-720p-on-550d

Perhaps it depends on the light source? What camera did you use? Gh1? Cmos sensor? Anyway - I think more important than shooting 25p at 1/40 or 1/80 is shooting 24p at 1/50 or 1/100 without getting flicker problems in pal lands. But I know some of you pal guys want it so badly. But even if pana would change it from 50i to real 25p I suspect they won´t change the datarate from 17mbps to 24mbps. And the 1080i50 footage Ive seen so far doesn´t look really good. But who knows - lets wait and see....... Good Luck!

 

[Rolf Silber]

Uwe,

I used my GH13. Flickering may also appear when at certain times broken or very cheap ballasts interact.

And I don't understand, why 24 with 50 is more important - it's for all it's other synchronity problems, need for pull down removal, pitch shift in sound, problems of inter-cutting with other 25 p a terrible choice and you can not go with 24 p straight to broadcast standard which is - also in Hamburg ;-) - 25 p.

And I do not want to get "fixed" to a certain shutter speed when shooting under non-tungsten artificial light in my own home territory - I may need a higher shutter speed when shooting in a concert and so on.... My main point though is: There is no need for doing that. 25 p is secure in our surroundings. It's proven. It's broadcast standard. Why change that in a new, better and probably even fantastic camera?

I had bought a GH1 with kit-lens a 20 mm Pancake and a 7 - 14 Zoom among with batteries and other stuff.... got my whole equipment stolen two months ago.... bought the stuff again because I am a fan of this camera (Vitaliy-Version) and because I needed it dearly and thought the GH2 will come and I will be equipped until the AG-AF 101 may become affordable for me.

I want security for my investment. And the GH1 appeared as not a "toy camera". With changing the specs of the new camera to the worse in a certain extremely important aspect I may have now to consider to sell my stuff and change to another brand altogether. And I don't really want it. That's what I call irony.

 

[Spectra]

When I first got my D90 I ran it through a few random tests filming video footage around Hong Kong. I was shooting in broad daylight and had some shots of people ouside of shops where flourescent lighting was present inside the shop in the background - these horrendous scrolling waves were evident in every shot where this lighting was being used but only inside where the lights were.....

Having always shot 1/50th shutter with a variety of pro/broadcast cameras over the years I had never seen this "artefact" and at first didnt know what was causing it but summised it was a problem with these lights flickering out of sync with the shutter - a similar situation to shooting a computer monitor and using Clearscan which is a feature that Sony has in their pro cameras which allows you to sync shutter speed to the scanning fequency of the PC monitor thus avoing a scrolling black band running down the screen.

As you all probably know the D90 has no manual control of aperture, ISO or shutter speed and was therefore choosing what IT thought was an appropriate shutter setting (which of course I was not privvy to as it doesnt indicate shutter speed). So in 24P with a shutter other than the 1/50th I ususally used this problem was very evident and it was then I knew I needed manual shutter control to avoid this problem...

The GH1 with 25P and 1/50th shutter has never exhibited this same issue.

 

[Zissou]

i wouldnt; i work in both NTSC and PAL areas.

i got one of the XH A1's modified by canon ($500) so it shoots 30F/25F, 24F, 60i/50i. All 3 T2i's we have shoot PAL/NTSC natively.

 

[Phil Rhodes]

Oh dear, and I was considering breaking my "never buy cameras" rule for one of these.

The technical argument about blu-ray formats isn't really the issue - it's perfectly reasonable to originate at 25p and distribute at 50i. Movies in PAL territories have been doing similar things for decades.

Unfortunately we're dealing with a super-corporation here and the likelihood of them even hearing our tormeted cries of horror at this jaw-dropping omission are microscopic.

Phil

 

[reggietelly]

It's a serious omission in my book not having 25p in the GH2. I am looking at footage shot on the GH13 converted with 5DtoRGB and it is pretty amazing. So there would have to be a true 25p to really sell the camera to me. Also last night I went out and shot with the 14-140 lens. I was worried about noise but there wasn't any even shooting 800 to 1000. Well I haven't pixel peeped. I am sure there is but for real work you can get around some of the GH13's foibles.

 

[Phil Rhodes]

It's less a "serious omission" than it is "I'm just obviously never going to buy one of these things".

Sometimes it's difficult to express the difference between straightforward regret that a feature is missing, and slack-jawed astonishment that such a completely fundamental option isn't there. This is one of the latter.

What next, Panasonic? Cameras without lenses?

 

[svecher]

Unfortunately we're dealing with a super-corporation here and the likelihood of them even hearing our tormeted cries of horror at this jaw-dropping omission are microscopic.
Phil

I [personally] think a more effective option is to continue the fundraising effort for GH2 body. Vitaliy will likely get a hold of GH2 firmware at some point. When he does, this jaw-dropping omission will get fixed in less time it takes to write and send a petition to Panasonic.