Which microphone? Zoom H1 or Rode Videomic?
- Thread starter dsp_418
- Start date
$20 for a mic? Which mic, exactly, are you looking at?
You're talking about apples to oranges here. The VideoMic is a mic. The H1 is a recorder with mics built-in, though you're obviously looking at something of an external mic to go with it. I doubt the $20 mic is the same kind of mic as the VideoMic, so how can they be compared?
And what are your audio needs, exactly? In other words, what types of shooting (and thus, audio recording) do you do?
There's a whole section of DVXUser committed to sound, and there's some great reading to be found in there. This sticky is a good starting place:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?51526-New-To-Audio-Read-This-First-Please
A quick browse and a use of the search function also turn up:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?231267-Low-Budget-Audio-Starter-Kit-for-Short-Films
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?231223-Cheap-Microphone
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?230585-Buying-a-basic-audio-kit-for-productions.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?230717-Zoom-H1
You're talking about apples to oranges here. The VideoMic is a mic. The H1 is a recorder with mics built-in, though you're obviously looking at something of an external mic to go with it. I doubt the $20 mic is the same kind of mic as the VideoMic, so how can they be compared?
And what are your audio needs, exactly? In other words, what types of shooting (and thus, audio recording) do you do?
There's a whole section of DVXUser committed to sound, and there's some great reading to be found in there. This sticky is a good starting place:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?51526-New-To-Audio-Read-This-First-Please
A quick browse and a use of the search function also turn up:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?231267-Low-Budget-Audio-Starter-Kit-for-Short-Films
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?231223-Cheap-Microphone
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?230585-Buying-a-basic-audio-kit-for-productions.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?230717-Zoom-H1
I'm talking about these two systems:
http://www.amazon.com/Rode-VideoMic-Directional-Condenser-Microphone/dp/B0007U9SOC
http://www.amazon.com/Zoom-H1-Portable-Digital-Recorder/dp/B003QKBVYK
I thought that for the Zoom H1 I needed a microphone, that's why I've talked about adding $20 on top of that to get something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B002HJ9PTO
Maybe I'm wrong...
http://www.amazon.com/Rode-VideoMic-Directional-Condenser-Microphone/dp/B0007U9SOC
http://www.amazon.com/Zoom-H1-Portable-Digital-Recorder/dp/B003QKBVYK
I thought that for the Zoom H1 I needed a microphone, that's why I've talked about adding $20 on top of that to get something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B002HJ9PTO
Maybe I'm wrong...
Okay, so you're comparing a shotgun mic, recording straight to your 7D, to a crummy throw-away lav recording into an H1? Again, apples to oranges, and neither are good solutions.
Yes, you really need to have a mic to feed a recorder... but which one(s) you need depend on a few other things.
So, again... what are you shooting? Narratives? Short films? Commercials? Weddings? Documentaries? What you shoot will really say a lot about what your sound needs are. You can't just buy a mic 'cause it's super-affordable and expect it to suit your needs. There are different microphones for different situations. Again, read up on the links I provided. Those will help you understand a little more.
About the purpose: I'll shoot a friend of mine. She'll read some poetry and she'll sing a song (voice + guitar). I'm gonna do this for free and I don't know if I'll need the mic. in the future or not. That's it. Since the built-in 7D audio recording are quite bad and at least I would give her a good memory of this day, I was thinking to a good solution but not too expensive.
That's all.
That's all.
That's very helpful information.
The lav that you linked is not going to give you any decent results, especially for recording voice + guitar. You can get some great recording from a lav, just not that one. And wired is going to be better than wireless.
You could, conceivably, get by with the H1 and the VideoMic, which would require extending the VideoMic's cable (not the best solution... see one of the links I posted about this very setup, and why it's not recommended). Though recording straight to the 7D is terrible, having the VideoMic is a major improvement just for recording reference sound (sound that you won't use in the end) to camera. And the H1 has some other creative uses for other projects, recording sound beds of crowded rooms, forests, streams, city streets, etc. So they may not necessarily be wasted expenses. But if you aren't sure, don't invest just yet.
Since you're looking at a small project, and you don't really know if you'll need any of this sound gear in the future, you may be better off renting a mic and recorder for this project. You'll spend just as much, if not a little less, and you won't waste your money on sub-par gear that wouldn't last you even if you needed it to.
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CV2 +1 - totally agree.
Your sig doesn't give a location so can't be specific but would suggest you approach your local music stores about a possible rental solution. If you're in a metro area local schools might be a source. Fellow musicians often have gear of their own. If you're lucky you might unearth a true sound geek (they do exist) who'll be a valuable resource down the road.
Ideally you'll want 2 stands, a guitar mic and a dialogue mic. mixer and recorder. And that's if she stays sitting down. Is it going to be a public performance (noisy venue) or studio type atmosphere? This will greatly impact options. If public, can u tie to venue's sound board?
If it's not a public performance - consider studio rental for a couple of hours - might swing it for what you're spending on gear, shoot while she's performing. You'll get pro audio and a memory she won't soon forget . . .
Your sig doesn't give a location so can't be specific but would suggest you approach your local music stores about a possible rental solution. If you're in a metro area local schools might be a source. Fellow musicians often have gear of their own. If you're lucky you might unearth a true sound geek (they do exist) who'll be a valuable resource down the road.
Ideally you'll want 2 stands, a guitar mic and a dialogue mic. mixer and recorder. And that's if she stays sitting down. Is it going to be a public performance (noisy venue) or studio type atmosphere? This will greatly impact options. If public, can u tie to venue's sound board?
If it's not a public performance - consider studio rental for a couple of hours - might swing it for what you're spending on gear, shoot while she's performing. You'll get pro audio and a memory she won't soon forget . . .
Samuel H
Major Contributor
just to add a couple of things:
* if the videomic option is "only the videomic, plugging it into the 7D", then go for the H1; even without the lav, it will be better than recording straight into the 7D because you can't set the auto gain off
* that lav seems "good enough", as tested on cheesycam; what I don't know is if you'll be able to record both voice and guitar with one of those (just because of my ignorance: I've never had to try something like that)
* if the videomic option is "only the videomic, plugging it into the 7D", then go for the H1; even without the lav, it will be better than recording straight into the 7D because you can't set the auto gain off
* that lav seems "good enough", as tested on cheesycam; what I don't know is if you'll be able to record both voice and guitar with one of those (just because of my ignorance: I've never had to try something like that)
Ok, I've searched around and it seems that the H1 is more suitable for interviews (with a lav) while the Rode is better for street shooting, or stuff like that.
After having watched some clips on Vimeo (even the Philip Bloom Venice's People) and Youtube I think I'll go with the Rode.
edit: Other things I've noticed. The H1 needs to be handled in your hand, not very useful. It's also possible to mount it on the camera with an adapter, it looks really awful and by the way one needs to spend more money. The quality is pretty good but it sounds like it's also quite low, most probably because it works better with a lav which in that case makes useless my job, recording and moving the camera at the same time.
After having watched some clips on Vimeo (even the Philip Bloom Venice's People) and Youtube I think I'll go with the Rode.
edit: Other things I've noticed. The H1 needs to be handled in your hand, not very useful. It's also possible to mount it on the camera with an adapter, it looks really awful and by the way one needs to spend more money. The quality is pretty good but it sounds like it's also quite low, most probably because it works better with a lav which in that case makes useless my job, recording and moving the camera at the same time.
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markblasco
Well-known member
dsp_418, I honestly think you need to go to a music store, talk to someone about exactly what you are doing, and rent something. From your last post, it sounds to me like you really are guessing as to how these pieces of equipment work, and I am afraid that you will not be happy with the results if you just go ahead on your own.
The H1 is a recorder, the videomic is a mic. They are two different things designed to work in 2 different ways, so your comparisons cause me to fear that you don't have a good grasp on how these things work, and in the end, you will be unhappy with your final product.
Any mic plugged into the 7D will give you bad sound. No matter what. You cannot turn off the AGC on the 7D, which means your volume will be pumping up and down the entire time, no matter what you plug into it. This is just how it is, there is no way around it without spending a lot of money on a device to disable the AGC, which requires more work in post, and from your comments, I don't know that this is something you will be able to correctly operate without a lot of testing. Ultimately I am afraid that you will be disappointed with the results.
The H1 can accept many types of microphones, not just lav mics. As I understand it (although I have never used the H1), you could even plug the Rode video mic into it. The major advantages that the H1 have are the ability to monitor what you are recording with headphones, and a much much much much much better audio recording in the end.
If you live near a place that does rentals for video, talk to them about your audio options. My local camera rental place will rent an H4N for a day for about $30. If you mounted that on your camera, it wouldn't look so hot, but even the built in mics on that would be a significant improvement to plugging a mic into the 7D, purely because of the fact that your gain won't be constantly changing.
Ultimately, you need to decide what you are comfortable with in terms of the audio situation, because any solution will turn out terrible if you don't understand how to operate it.
What isn't clear to me is if this is going to be a one time thing (a live performance), or if it is something you can do different takes of, or redo parts that don't come out right. If it's a live performance in a controlled area, I would suggest using the H1 (or H4n, or whatever your rental shop suggests) with either a separate mic or it's own built in mics, put it in front of the artist, and don't worry about having it on the camera. Just put it on a stand a few feet away or something like that. This will give you much better audio than anything mounted on the camera. Even if you plugged a $10,000 mic into the camera, you aren't going to get very good sound, that's just the way it is.
Now, if you are going to end up using a mic plugged into the camera, just be prepared that the level is going to bounce around a lot. Also, if the mic is mounted on the camera, you are going to get lots of room sound unless you are right up in front of the singer (and I mean no more than about 3 feet away). If you are 6 feet back than you are not going to get good clean sound.
If you aren't going to be using this equipment in the future, try to rent it, you will save a lot of money.
The H1 is a recorder, the videomic is a mic. They are two different things designed to work in 2 different ways, so your comparisons cause me to fear that you don't have a good grasp on how these things work, and in the end, you will be unhappy with your final product.
Any mic plugged into the 7D will give you bad sound. No matter what. You cannot turn off the AGC on the 7D, which means your volume will be pumping up and down the entire time, no matter what you plug into it. This is just how it is, there is no way around it without spending a lot of money on a device to disable the AGC, which requires more work in post, and from your comments, I don't know that this is something you will be able to correctly operate without a lot of testing. Ultimately I am afraid that you will be disappointed with the results.
The H1 can accept many types of microphones, not just lav mics. As I understand it (although I have never used the H1), you could even plug the Rode video mic into it. The major advantages that the H1 have are the ability to monitor what you are recording with headphones, and a much much much much much better audio recording in the end.
If you live near a place that does rentals for video, talk to them about your audio options. My local camera rental place will rent an H4N for a day for about $30. If you mounted that on your camera, it wouldn't look so hot, but even the built in mics on that would be a significant improvement to plugging a mic into the 7D, purely because of the fact that your gain won't be constantly changing.
Ultimately, you need to decide what you are comfortable with in terms of the audio situation, because any solution will turn out terrible if you don't understand how to operate it.
What isn't clear to me is if this is going to be a one time thing (a live performance), or if it is something you can do different takes of, or redo parts that don't come out right. If it's a live performance in a controlled area, I would suggest using the H1 (or H4n, or whatever your rental shop suggests) with either a separate mic or it's own built in mics, put it in front of the artist, and don't worry about having it on the camera. Just put it on a stand a few feet away or something like that. This will give you much better audio than anything mounted on the camera. Even if you plugged a $10,000 mic into the camera, you aren't going to get very good sound, that's just the way it is.
Now, if you are going to end up using a mic plugged into the camera, just be prepared that the level is going to bounce around a lot. Also, if the mic is mounted on the camera, you are going to get lots of room sound unless you are right up in front of the singer (and I mean no more than about 3 feet away). If you are 6 feet back than you are not going to get good clean sound.
If you aren't going to be using this equipment in the future, try to rent it, you will save a lot of money.
take the H1, you do not need any mic, there is already 2 mics in the H1.
if your concern is to record better than the camera does, it is only because the mic of the camera is ON the camera that result could be bad, because usually , camera mic are "good enough", just misplaced.
so put your H1 close to your subject (less than 3 feet) , and set the camera anywhere the way you want.
if you need to get the sound of the H1 recorded on camera, just use the line output of the H1 to feed the cam.
If your subject is moving then it is another problem, you need a wireless mic ot to attache the H1 to the subject
if your concern is to record better than the camera does, it is only because the mic of the camera is ON the camera that result could be bad, because usually , camera mic are "good enough", just misplaced.
so put your H1 close to your subject (less than 3 feet) , and set the camera anywhere the way you want.
if you need to get the sound of the H1 recorded on camera, just use the line output of the H1 to feed the cam.
If your subject is moving then it is another problem, you need a wireless mic ot to attache the H1 to the subject
Thank you for your replies, I'm beginning to understand what's the problem with just the mic plugged into the 7D and what something like the H1 can do. So, at the end the good solution could be a good microphone plugged into a good device, maybe H4 or something similar but not a microphone plugged in the 7D. Anyway, not my case, over budget.
So, the H1 has the right price: it seems that some concerns is about the quality of the body, maybe fragile but for that price I wouldn't expect a robust tool too.
Another cons seems to be the auto-level, while the lo-level should be turned on all the time.
The idea of having the H1 working alone leaving me free to mind only to the camera is actually appealing. The only thing I'm wondering is if I can leave it on the ground or I need to use it on a stand to keep the H1 at a higher level. I hope I can avoid the latter choice, I wouldn't like to have something disturbing the scene, but not sure whether the H1 on the ground can works fine too...
One last thing, since the price is quite low, something to consider to add could be the Furryhead Windscreen just in case of wind.
So, the H1 has the right price: it seems that some concerns is about the quality of the body, maybe fragile but for that price I wouldn't expect a robust tool too.
Another cons seems to be the auto-level, while the lo-level should be turned on all the time.
The idea of having the H1 working alone leaving me free to mind only to the camera is actually appealing. The only thing I'm wondering is if I can leave it on the ground or I need to use it on a stand to keep the H1 at a higher level. I hope I can avoid the latter choice, I wouldn't like to have something disturbing the scene, but not sure whether the H1 on the ground can works fine too...
One last thing, since the price is quite low, something to consider to add could be the Furryhead Windscreen just in case of wind.
if you shoot inside and the h1 is not moving (on a tripod for example) there is no need for wind protection, but the H1 is VERY sensitive to wind. a simple fast pan is enough to create wind noise.
ideally, your mic would be a bit lower than the guitar, pointing to the head of the subject, so you can avoid any noise coming from seat or feet or ground (unless you got a noisy thing on the ceiling.)
ideally, your mic would be a bit lower than the guitar, pointing to the head of the subject, so you can avoid any noise coming from seat or feet or ground (unless you got a noisy thing on the ceiling.)
N
Nikita
Guest
Will H1 yield the same sound performance as the H4? If I am only concerned with recording one input?
Snapper123
Well-known member
One thing I'd like to ask - in all reality, for a lot of the work I want to do, the majority of it is interview material or something near it - a public-place interview, a commercial with just a person talking, close-up dialogue scenes in short films, ect ect. I just need crystal clear sound for very close-up subjects. What's really the options, adding that I'll either be hacking the T2i or buying the 60D, if that helps?
I mean, there's honestly some things I like more than others. I can't stand the the muffled, down-syndrome effect that I've heard mics give to people's voices, nor do I want it to sound very "open" like a built-in mic, but when it comes to just a tiny bit of static or white noise, I'm not sure that it would bother me as long as it was consistent through the shots. But then again, I'd rather have neither, perfect sound adds realism to a great extent - it's just that I've heard absolutely stunning results from short films and mic tests where the filmmakers didn't seem to spend an arm and a leg, and seemed to simply be doing close-up work in decent and normal areas. The truth is that since most of my purposes have a big aesthetic factor, I'm not sure I'd want to risk the shirt mics, I'm still pretty keen to want something I can control while I'm working with the camera.
I mean, there's honestly some things I like more than others. I can't stand the the muffled, down-syndrome effect that I've heard mics give to people's voices, nor do I want it to sound very "open" like a built-in mic, but when it comes to just a tiny bit of static or white noise, I'm not sure that it would bother me as long as it was consistent through the shots. But then again, I'd rather have neither, perfect sound adds realism to a great extent - it's just that I've heard absolutely stunning results from short films and mic tests where the filmmakers didn't seem to spend an arm and a leg, and seemed to simply be doing close-up work in decent and normal areas. The truth is that since most of my purposes have a big aesthetic factor, I'm not sure I'd want to risk the shirt mics, I'm still pretty keen to want something I can control while I'm working with the camera.
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
For the record, I DO agree that having a separate recorder will get better sound if you've got the budget for it, but getting around the AGC of the internal mic isn't as big of a deal as others here make it seem to be.
There are many tricks such as routing noise on one channel from an mp3 player while recording from the mic on the other, which would require minimal effort to do in post (just remove the noise channel) compared to syncing up external audio.
Now, keep in mind that the pre-amp on these cameras is said to be pretty bad, so even if you get around AGC, its possible the sound would still come out better with an alternative method. However, for something like recording voice during an interview, I find that using my sennheisser lapel mic into the camera's port and using the sound trick (or Magic Lantern if you are lucky enough to have a device supported by it) to disable AGC can yield results that are more than adequate.
I'm no audio engineer, but it seems just as good as I got on my old DVX with XLR inputs. If I were recording guitar or any other instrument, I'm not so sure I would go this route, but for recorded voice it seems fine.
There are many tricks such as routing noise on one channel from an mp3 player while recording from the mic on the other, which would require minimal effort to do in post (just remove the noise channel) compared to syncing up external audio.
Now, keep in mind that the pre-amp on these cameras is said to be pretty bad, so even if you get around AGC, its possible the sound would still come out better with an alternative method. However, for something like recording voice during an interview, I find that using my sennheisser lapel mic into the camera's port and using the sound trick (or Magic Lantern if you are lucky enough to have a device supported by it) to disable AGC can yield results that are more than adequate.
I'm no audio engineer, but it seems just as good as I got on my old DVX with XLR inputs. If I were recording guitar or any other instrument, I'm not so sure I would go this route, but for recorded voice it seems fine.
Snapper123
Well-known member
Like when it comes to mics, what's really the base of what to choose from? There seems to be shotgun mics (for specific directions), shirt mics (clip onto the shirt), there seem to be mics that are more of a general area mic I'm guessing, ect ect and honestly, I think the most important thing would be choosing the right mic for the purpose - I think that's what I'm really trying to figure out.
For example, what types of mics are being used for this musical project? In one video I saw a directional pole with a mic on it - the big question is what mic? It seems to capture the voice and guitar very well.
http://sideshowalley.tv/
For example, what types of mics are being used for this musical project? In one video I saw a directional pole with a mic on it - the big question is what mic? It seems to capture the voice and guitar very well.
http://sideshowalley.tv/