What Stage is your RED Camera ?

LuckyStudio 13 said:
Canon does not have high end cameras to protect unlike Panasonic and Sony. The most expensive cam they have is probably the XL-H1 series. In the higher end side, Canon sells a PL mount 35mm prime cinema and 2/3" ENG lenses.

IMHO, Canon already have all the missing pieces to make a great indie cinema cameras.

They need
1) A Codec.
2) Low mid end priced cinema lenses.

Imagine if

Their still still camera division collaborating with their video division and their still lenses division and they decided to:

a) Put the 7D S35mm sensor and its video capability technology into the XL Series or XH Series camera body.
b) Make it a Canon Mount body made for Canon SLR still Lenses.
c) Introduce a mid priced Canon Cinema lenses, take their SLR still prime lenses, make the focus throw longer and put gear rings into the body. Ridiculous ? Zeiss is currently offering this exact option.
e) Introduce a new recording codec.

Introduce the camera sometime in the Spring before NAB or early Summer after NAB. We all know Canon like to have their own product event. Imagine how many of these will sell to potential Scarlet buyers.

Canon might as well do it now while Red is still figuring out the Scarlet. Why not beat the competition by being ahead.
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Yu~p.

Canon may very well release a "Scarlet" before the Scarlet people do. I wouldn't doubt that as the case. At this point, the Sensor Technology is already beyond what RED ONE is, it's just a matter of putting a brain behind it that can utilize the full potential.

RAW VIDEO namely.

But, at the same time, I don't think they'll do the extras that any of RED's offerings will. There's just a lot of "Cool Stuff" in a RED cam that probably won't translate to Corporate World right out of the gate.

So we'll see something like a RAW image up to 60P as opposed to RED's offerings hitting 120. Or the extra peripherals etc that RED's got to sell.

Either way, I'll take whichever's here first. The Aliasing is an ass n'a half and having to whip out the RED for VFX work (video keying primarily, tracking and plates are fine with the 5D and 7D) is still a pain.

It is what it is though, and what it is now is a waiting game. Better grab what's out there and make some money in the meantime!
 
I don't think the sensors in the current crop of dslr's are going to be capable of the increased quality at higher resolutions and framerates..... I'm not an engineer, but there is a reason they are like they are... these are sensors optimized for still photography....

gets expensive to produce a large sensor capable of high framerates, etc.

later,
jason
 
Jason Ramsey said:
I don't think the sensors in the current crop of dslr's are going to be capable of the increased quality at higher resolutions and framerates..... I'm not an engineer, but there is a reason they are like they are... these are sensors optimized for still photography....

gets expensive to produce a large sensor capable of high framerates, etc.

later,
jason
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Right, sorry, I probably shouldn't state that as fact. It's just my guess that Canon, being who they are, have sensor tech completely capable of this but the hardware backing SLRs isn't what we're looking for.

Considering that the 7D can do RAW 5K (or so) Stills @ 8FPS, I wonder how much more tech is needed to bump that up to a continuous 24FPS (barring consumer cost).

But, right, who knows. Thanks for clearing me up, Ramsey. Oh and happy birthday.
 
As a previous poster mentioned I lament the loss of the original pocket Scarlet (an affordable 3k for 3,000), replaced by a confusing number of camera models with so many accessory permutations it would take a while to work out the real cost of a usable configuration! After all the investment RED have made and the time spent by so many smart people, I hope it doesn't just end up like Windows Vista...
 
right now the only upcoming camera announced that is spec'd to do 5k at 24fps is.... well, S35 Scarlet....

I'm sure there will be lots of players in that market.... I just don't think (could be completely wrong) that it is as soon as a lot of people seem to think it is.

I have the opinion that the current crop of dslr's have misled people into believing that "we're almost there" or whatever, when in fact, other than sensor size (my personal opinion) the dslr's were a step back in most other ways.... Well, other than sensor size and price.

My opinion is that when you do see a 35mm sensor from a canon or panny or whatever it will be one of two things.... NOT sold for 2 grand or anywhere near it.

Or, basically a dslr sensor rehoused into a camcorder form factor (perhaps not with as much of the shortcomings of the smaller dslr's video wise) with the same basic issues... but you will gain the basic functionality and control that everyone willingly abandoned for the sensor size and price tag of the dslr's (not saying there is anything wrong with that at all, mind you :) )

Or, somewhere inbetween the two...

I just don't think we're going to be seeing Scarlet like specs in the sub10k price range in the next 6 months or year from any of the big players... Some of this and some of that... but lookign at the total package, the dsmc lineup is a pretty unique beast...

time will tell though :)

EDIT: I totally posted this and was like "where the f' is my post?" then I remembered that I'm using Luis' avatar :) I should really take advantage of this...
 
Kholi said:
Considering that the 7D can do RAW 5K (or so) Stills @ 8FPS, I wonder how much more tech is needed to bump that up to a continuous 24FPS (barring consumer cost).
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That's like saying you've got a car that can go 100mph. What would it take to make it go 300mph?

Well, it can be done, but at considerably more cost.
 
Sumfun said:
That's like saying you've got a car that can go 100mph. What would it take to make it go 300mph?

Well, it can be done, but at considerably more cost.
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We're not talking cost, though. We already KNOW it'll cost more than 2K. That's not what it's about. It's about who's going to put it out first, RED or Canon?

So, yeah, it'll cost more. Just who's going to do it first?

P.S. As for your analogy, it depends on the car. I can get a Civic to lay down 300/210ft tq with 1500.00. =B And that was five years ago.
 
We are still at square one, like we were five years ago, nothing has really changed.

All these players are making claims but no one has turned out a decent sized 35mm sensor (21mm-14mm) with a good 1080p codec and removeable lenses, and good audio in a form we can shoulder, sit on a tripod, steadicam it, hand hold, etc.

If JVC would make the bodies, Panasonic make the codec/sensor and audio, and Canon make the lenses we might finally get something worth owning.

I'm amazed at how so many can get it wrong for so long. You would think this is rocket science.

RED is a great fantasy. My bet is the Japanese will undercut Scarlet but still leave us suffering with sub-practical tools.
 
Barry said something on page 2, echoing what he said many months ago. We've long ago passed the line of good enough. We begged for computer editing, then 24p, cinegamma, HD, interchangeable lenses, overcranking, shallow DOF. It's interesting how we follow Red's hype for "the next big thing" that they keep pitching.

I wonder what people would think if JVC announced that in the future they would release a modular RAW 4k camera with interchangeable lenses, a FF35 chip, 120fps frame rate, etc. but with no date, no prototypes, only specs and renders. Would everyone line up and wait?

The reality is that right now, for $15,000 you could purchase a very impressive pile of gear capable of shooting just about anything at a very high quality. Providing you had the creative know-how to make use of it.
 
hey guys, i just got back from the future...

sorry to say, but it seems the world is gonna end before they release the scarlet =/
 
I've been following the Scarlet epic for a while as well.

I have to say that I have no idea how much a basic Scarlet that shoots some video to some capture card would cost two years (I think) after the announcement.

That is troubling to me at least.

I thought the original actually capturing video Scarlet was going to run $3k.

Is that now a campaign promise and the election is over?
 
Kholi said:
Right, sorry, I probably shouldn't state that as fact. It's just my guess that Canon, being who they are, have sensor tech completely capable of this but the hardware backing SLRs isn't what we're looking for.
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I'm sure Canon has such sensor - actually it's sensor you have in your 7d (provided you already have one). My guess is it's not the sensor-related issue. It's the Digic chip/flash memory that can't handle it and their marketing strategy.


Considering that the 7D can do RAW 5K (or so) Stills @ 8FPS, I wonder how much more tech is needed to bump that up to a continuous 24FPS (barring consumer cost).
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The memory becomes a bottleneck. You either need very fast memory or need to compress the raw stream somehow (like Red did).

But then, do you really need 5K? No theater can play it. Have you considered storage costs? What about editing? I could live with decent 2K (or 1080) 4:2:2 stream right from camera. When saying 'decent' I mean properly downsampled. No awful nearest neighbour / pixel averaging. Good (bi)cubic interpolation. Panavision Genesis has 12mp sensor, but outputs 1080p (4:4:4)... not bad a camera at all ;)
 
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trez said:
But then, do you really need 5K? No theater can play it. Have you considered storage costs? What about editing? I could live with decent 2K (or 1080) 4:2:2 stream right from camera. When saying 'decent' I mean properly downsampled. No awful nearest neighbour / pixel averaging. Good (bi)cubic interpolation. Panavision Genesis has 12mp sensor, but outputs 1080p (4:4:4)... not bad a camera at all ;)
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Who really need more than 4k? As you point out, no theater can play it...and the storage cost will skyrocket. Doing post work, grading and effects in 1080p, let alone 4K, is demanding enough. For film there might be a market some time, but for broadcast...we're having enough with the transition to HD broadcast.

And I wonder how many users realize they need a 2-3K tripod to support their 2-4000 USD RED camera. With high res, there's an even higher need for good support, optics and filters...you reveal even the smallest error and detail.
 
Christian m said:
Who really need more than 4k? As you point out, no theater can play it...and the storage cost will skyrocket. Doing post work, grading and effects in 1080p, let alone 4K, is demanding enough. For film there might be a market some time, but for broadcast...we're having enough with the transition to HD broadcast.
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With single sensor cameras, you lose about 30% of the resolution to de-bayering. So you need to shoot at about 3k to get 1920x1080. If your final output were for a 4k projector, then you need to shoot somewhere between 5k and 6k. Higher resolution probably helps with certain special effects, too.

But I agree that it's a lot more storage and processing time. Personally, I don't want to deal with that, so I like the fact that they're offering a scaled 1080p output as well.
 
Sumfun said:
With single sensor cameras, you lose about 30% of the resolution to de-bayering. So you need to shoot at about 3k to get 1920x1080.
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Absolutely. And there's even more - all cameras (including triple-sensor ones) benefit from oversampling (sensor res > output raster res). You always need to put optical low-pass filter in front of the sensor to filter out the details above Nyquist that would otherwise alias. Such filter never has infinite roll-off, so it cuts off some of the fine details. Oversampling helps a lot here. I understand the need for high-res (>2K) sensors! But I don't really need high-res output.
 
LuckyStudio 13 said:
we will all know more detail (release date, price ....etc) by the end of November (30th).
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Not necessarily. We didn't get those details about the Epic series from the October 30th announcement.

All we know about Nov. 30th is that will be the next time we get information released. We don't know what that information will include.
 
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