What does RED do for you ?

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J.R. Hudson

J.R. Hudson

Spirit Animal
Red Red Red Red

One thing I have noticed over the last few years is that these sites (dvxuser, dvinfo, etc) are populated by many many types of people. Filmmakers, videographers, producers, technical geniuses ...

Yes, I am referring to those that seem obsessed with the tech side of these digital cameras. Without you (Barry Green for example), these cameras probably would not be here or at least the evolution of digital technology would not be as rapid.

If it isn't fainting over the XL1s or the DVX100 or the XL2 the High Def Models come along and the cycle repeats itself. Each camera is touted as the best thing ever and what impact it will have on the industry.

My main question is; what are you going to do with RED ? Is RED the end all of your dreams ? Is RED going to be that magic bullet that finally enables you to accomplish your goals ?

If RED was not on the way, what camera would you be obsessing over in its stead ?

What about BLUE (Blue is the next big one for lack of a better name). It seems the logical cycle based on past events is too sit around and start obsessing over the next one on the horizon

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For me, I am not in a position financially or artisically to move up the ladder; the DVX100 is still my lil Mule and no camera is going to do anything for me that I can't make happen on my own.

So what is RED going to do for you that what is currently in your hands cannot ?

:beer: Food for thought
 
Nothing that my HVX/M2 combo doesn't already do for my clients, quite honestly.

If I get a gig that NEEDS that kind of horsepower, then I will rent it.

Funny how owning your own business puts alot of financial decisions in perspective.
 
I'm obsessing over Mikko's Yellow camera. I'm # 3 on the list. But now you have me intrigued. What is the Blue camera? When will they have schematics up? I have to get one!!!!

Seriously though, while I there are benefits to extremely detailed technical knowledge, I spend much more time honing the artistic side of filmmaking. Not to say I don't know my way around my DVX. I read on theory and watch movies several times for techniques and themes. I revel in getting good framing on a shot and having it add to a story I am passionate about. That being said, I would gladly take a Red camera. I'll just hire someone to operate it!
 
John_Hudson said:
So what is RED going to do for you that what is currently in your hands cannot ?
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Hi John... the easy answer for me... perfect blue/green screen work, and great VFX plate photography. I simply want to own equal or greater quality that I can rent right now... Not too much to ask, is it? :)

Oh, and I simply want a digital camera that can do everything (and more) the 90+ year old low serial number 35mm camera in my sig does...
 
What does RED give me? The options and quality I want at a justifiable price point. Why do the big boys use the Varicams and CineAltas and Genisis's (Genisees?) other than they have enough dough? RED brings me pristine image quality, a big leap in latitude, an affordable non-tape based workflow, a huge choice of lenses, a digital-negative, etc.

Maybe the question should be spinned positively?
 
RED is going to be what I use for the next feature film I make. I made my first one with a DVX100 (see my sig below), and I'm very happy with it. But, all else being equal, had I had an HVX200, or an HD100, or an XL-H1, or an f350, or a Varicam or F900 at my disposal, the final image would have looked better. I wish I had shot it in HD, but when I shot the film (Summer 2003) only the Varicam and the F900 were out, and they were way too expensive for our budget.

So, our next feature film will have a (hopefully) bigger budget, and will allow the use of $20K-$30K for camera equipment. The RED-One camera fits squarely into that price range, and will deliver (again, hopefully) results that will put it leagues beyond anything the DVX is capable of. I love my DVX, but I don't want to shoot in 4:1:1 SD for the big screen again; too many compromises in image quality.

If the RED-One hadn't been announced, I'd probably be looking into one of the following:

a) Renting an f900
b) Buying an HDX900
c) Buying an f350
d) Renting a film camera

The HDX900 looks like a real good camera, and I really like Panasonic's "look". I also like the XDcam HD tapeless workflow.

Lot's of people say that a camera is only a tool, and the most important things are story, acting, music, sets, costumes, lights, music, editing, directing, and music. I agree (especially with the music part). But all else being equal, why would I spend $30,000 on 1080p 4:2:2 DVCproHD recorded to tape, when I can shoot 4K REDCODE RAW to an on-board flash module, and then dump it straight into my edit bay (complete with an offline proxy for editing at 480p and the original 4K footage safely in a bunch of cheap external drives).

There's just no contest. If the images RED produces remain in line with what they've been showing, there's no need for me to move to anything else digital, and it makes a really good argument against shooting on film at all.

PS- If someday "BLUE" is announced, and it does 4K RAW in 3D for only $9K, then I'll start obsessing over that one. But until then, I see no point in drooling over anything else on the market.
 
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John_Hudson said:
So what is RED going to do for you that what is currently in your hands cannot ?
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I understand what you're saying, and yes there probably are plenty of filmmakers out there salivating over this camera when it's not going to be a magic ticket for them. Everyone has their reasons, just off the top of my head, for our company/me it's:

Having content which can be repourposed in 20 years without it standing out dramatically when intercut with newer fotage.

Having content that won't degrade in standards conversions when sending it overseas.

Colorspace to manipulate properly without immediate degradation and for color difference compositing.

Along with colorspace, latitude to allow shot matching.

Lack of obnoxious vertical smear when we have hundreds of theatrical lights blasting into the lens.

Cleaner plates for VFX work.

Being able to achieve shallower depth of field in the same conditions we usually shoot in.

Being able to meet deadlines while maintaining product quality when we're on the road and the nearest lab/telecine/post house is 1000 miles away.

Not having to freak out when FedEx doesn't show up with the rental package.
 
As a writer, not a techie, I hope that RED will allow me to shoot my own projects rather than waste time "shopping them around" to executives who might have big bank accounts but often limited creativity. The DVX100A opened up this world for me and I shot my first couple of shorts. But I know I need the increased latitude and resolution to allow my projects to compete on a wider scale. I'm really most interested in the story and not how many lines of resolution there are, but I'm also very aware of how much "the look" of the finished product can influence an audience's reactions to that story.

EDIT: this blog post sums up my own opinion...

http://mewanthorsie.blogspot.com/2006/11/pen-is-mightier-than-camera-as-rabid.html
 
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Tech obsession

Tech obsession

Your basic rant is a fair one, the obsession many of us, me included, have over the arcane technical side of making motion image content is overboard. In this particular case I do feel it is much more justified, here's why:

The RedOne is still in development. We all have a wish list of all the things we wish we could do with the cameras we own, rent or are asked to operate every day. Normally such a wish list is mostly just fodder for post strike beer time conversation. Over the last few months I have seen the RedOne evolve with obvious impact from these forums, that actually matters in that we all will benefit from a better tool. Yes it is just a tool, but a higher quality and more user friendly tool makes for better results. My analogy is woodworking; imagine you are trying to build furniture with a couple of simple tools - if you have the time and patience you can make amazing stuff, we've all seen master crafted antiques - now imagine that you are in a well outfitted shop full of jigs, vices, clamps, high end power tools, etc... You get the idea.

The other caveat to your point is that the RedOne is part of a revolution in the workflow to an IT centric model. Many of my posts, and the ones from others that I read most carefully are not about the camera but about how to integrate any digital camera into a tapeless / filmless workflow. Up until very recently most of us could ignore issues like frame rates, aspect ratios, compression types, etc and just point and shoot (and light!). This is a whole new area of the biz that is evolving so fast that there are few (if any) reference books that can keep up with web communites like this one in figuring out best practices - it is simply changing too fast.

The last point I must make is that the jump from every camera on the market to the RedOne is a serious leap. This is not an incremental step, this is to quote Mike Curtis an "inflection point" for this industry. Getting a handle on this "rebellion" warrants some discussion.

Blair S. Paulsen
RedOne #19
 
Alex DePew said:
I'm obsessing over Mikko's Yellow camera. I'm # 3 on the list. But now you have me intrigued. What is the Blue camera? When will they have schematics up? I have to get one!!!!
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Don't listen to him Alex, Blue isn't all that great. Yellow is the way to go. Look at John, even he is Yellow! :laugh:



There is always something newer. And for us tech-heads there is just an inherent curiosity in the latests gadgets. Call them the "coolest toys", or the "best tools", they are always things to look forward and up to.
I totally agree where John is coming from. I have yet to produce anything in HD, and I've only shot it a couple of times. 2K, let alone 4K are so far in the distance for me that they have no impact on my work. - Except as a camera operator (especially as specilized as Steadicam), I have to be prepared to work with the equipment if and when the opertunity/need presents itself. However it is the future, and those possebileties are very cool.

To be able to do something that has never been done before - be it as art or with technology - is a very enticing concept. It's what drives us forwards as people.

- Mikko
 
For me, RED takes everything that I love about 35mm (quality, DOF, dynamic range, field of view, and variable, progressive framerates) and marries it with everything I love about the digital workflow. It's the first camera to do this at a price that is reasonable enough to actually be owned by an individual, and I know that given the RED team's unbelivable level of interaction with their user base during the development process, they aren't going to leave anyone out in the cold after the camera's release (when's the last time you were able to PM the CEO of Sony or Panasonic and get a heartfelt reply?). For me, it means no longer having to invest (and reinvest and reinvest) in stock, developing, processing, and telecine just to get the quality I want out of the films I shoot, and it means no longer having to fiddle with modifications or hacked equipment just to get shallow DOF from my digital system. RED truly provides an answer to practically every hurdle I've had to deal with as a filmmaker - whether those hurdles were present when shooting celluloid film or digital video. And that, to me, is a huge deal.

We hear the mantra over and over that "a camera doesn't make a film - it's the story and the people who are involved," but I don't think that anyone who is investing in RED is still unaware of this. There have always been limitations, but those limitations don't stop filmmakers from making films. My earliest shorts as a kid weren't even digital or film... they were made with my Dad's shoulder-mounted VHS camcorder. That's about as crummy a picture as it gets. :) And if RED wasn't coming down the pipeline tomorrow, I'd keep on shooting with something else (albeit it would probably be rented, and most certainly not as nice). And that's essentially the point; while equipment alone does not make a good film, everyone wants to use the highest quality gear they can for the price they can afford. I truly believe that RED is jumping several hurdles on this front, by offering a product of such high quality that it literally is on par with some of the best cameras used in Hollywood today while at a price that you and I are now able to acheive without mortgaging the house. Don't be fooled; this is a big deal.

While cameras like the DVX, HVX, and Varicam have taken great steps for digital video (with the emergence of things like true 24p, variable framerates, and higher resolution than previously available), they have only offered pieces of the solution. RED addresses everything that's missing (and more, some could easily argue). And with a built-in upgrade path to ensure protection from obsolescence, they are also ensuring that RED isn't just going to be a flash-in-the-pan, here-today-gone-tomorrow sort of system. There are more than a few other digital video cameras that could fall under that blanket... some whose relevance lasted less than a year! That's pretty crazy, especially considering the money it takes to buy one of these things. I don't think it's any coincidence that the Varicam has dropped over $25,000 in price in the last year alone. That's more than the cost of a solid RED one package itself.

When all is said and done, what RED really means to me is that I will finally be able to own a camera that will capture the kind of images that I want to capture. It's pretty much as simple as that. Digital always meant a compromise in the past, and I think 2007 will mark the year that this is no longer the case.
 
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I have an HVX200 and aspirations to shoot SOMETHING and I can't even do that. RED's not going to give me the almight ability to suddenly do something when I have a perfectly acceptable image to work with right now.

The only thing RED will do for me is (hopefully) force major manufacturers to drop their price tag and offer MORE features on the newer "pro"sumer end. And, hopefully spark some other RED-like Camera in the HVX/A1 price-range that'll give a similar quality image with the option to swap lenses.

Pipedreams.
 
Haakon said:
While cameras like the DVX, HVX, and Varicam have taken great steps for digital video (with the emergence of things like true 24p, variable framerates, and higher resolution than previously available), they have only offered pieces of the solution. RED addresses everything that's missing (and more, some could easily argue). And with a built-in upgrade path to ensure protection from obsolescence, they are also ensuring that RED isn't just going to be a flash-in-the-pan, here-today-gone-tomorrow sort of system. There are more than a few other digital video cameras that could fall under that blanket... some whose relevance lasted less than a year! That's pretty crazy, especially considering the money it takes to buy one of these things. I don't think it's any coincidence that the Varicam has dropped over $25,000 in price in the last year alone. That's more than the cost of a solid RED one package itself.

When it's all said and done, what RED really means to me is that I will finally be able to own a camera that will capture the kind of images that I want to capture. It's pretty much as simple as that. Digital always meant a compromise in the past, and I think 2007 will mark the year that this is no longer the case.
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Haakon for President.
 
John,

At the end of the reservation period, we opted to take a "wait and see" on the RED system - it was strictly a business decision.

Our thinking and criteria for sorting the decision...

If you own a company that caters to commercial, narrative and special effects markets, RED might be a good investment based on its technical specification. Whether purchasing a $40k camera makes sense from a business standpoint is another question entirely.

We found that there is a finite market for acquisition at this level. For this reason, we have, to date, opted out of 35mm, VariCam and CineAlta class cameras and support equipment based on the number of days we have had subrental units working over the past two years.

The number of rental days versus the cost to own and maintain them simply didn't measure up.

Commercial production companies in particular should be a great place for RED. I see a nice fit for even smaller boutique shops that have a proven production resume and a balanced ledger to back such a purchase. For an upstart, I'd say it is money poorly allocated. We, at present, do almost no 35mm commercial production, so this didn't fit our model.

I've worked for both Mannex and ILM and can say with some authority that SFX house is effectivley a non-starter from a business standpoint - plenty of benchmark shops have come and gone with shelf-fulls of VistaVision and 65mm units sitting virtually in mothballs. Apogee and Boss spring to mind. The cameras don't book the business and do little to contribute to the bottom line in SFX when they're working - cameras are a loss-leader at best.

Let's look at some baseline numbers - forgetting for a moment all the additional infrastructure that goes under each and every unit you maintain.

We contacted our underwriters at Direct Capital, who indicated that the basic RED configuration below would require about $1,150 per month in lease payments with the requisite insurance policy for the term of the lease (as we insure all of our "leased" equipment).
  1. RED One Camera Body: $17,500
  2. RED 18-85mm Zoom: $9,500 (not available until Q4 2k7, necessitating sub-rentals until release)
  3. RED Raid: $1,000 each
  4. RED Rails / Cage: < $2,000 (estimated)
  5. 5 x 5 Mattebox: $1,500 (at cost)
  6. Batteries $2,000 (estimated quad system cost)
  7. HD Monitoring: $5,000 - $8,000 per monitor (no on-board SD support)
  8. Cases: $1,200 (at cost)
A rental house scenario could work for those who have opted into multiple units.

For our productions, I can say with certainty that if Panavision rents RED at even 25% more cost per day than a single-unit owner-operator, we will secure our RED rentals through them or the like. Three day weeks and one day weekends are the norm here and back-ups are almost always available and kept on-hand in the event of a failure.

The financial and legal exposure at the hands of a breakdown is simply too [g]reat to undertake a paid production without express guarantee that a back-up is effectively standing by. Lost days at the RED level (35mm) might well equal hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Unless you have three systems, or virtually instant access to back-ups directly through RED or a functionally transparent RED support network, it would be a treacherous model to get into.

I'd like to understand better how individuals have made the decision to go on this promising piece of technology. Your visceral yearnings aside, how are you justifying the expense and what trends are you basing it on?

e
 
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For me I'm just sick and tired of the constant 6 moth shelf life of todays "prosumer"camera systems I choose to buy. In need of a service 2 years after your purchase? Forget it. At least with RED, to a big extent, we will be investing against that scenario.

Just having the availability of selecting up to 4k under the bonnet is a massive coup. Its like, I guess, being in a donkey derby but knowing you're actually riding a thorobred; running the 200m sprint but knowing that you have the stamina and power to slam dunk the mile.

I am planning that this will, for me, be the last camera system that I buy. I think it is all I will need for the future. I have made short films in DV in the past and can only imagine the results I will achieve with RED.

my 2c,
Mark.
 
John_Hudson said:
So what is RED going to do for you that what is currently in your hands cannot ?
Click to expand...

Ask not what Red can do for you. Ask what you can do for Red! Or with Red. :beer:

For me it's getting a high quality picture at a reasonable price.
 
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