VaricamLT: Varicam LT, Scarlet-W or something else?
- Thread starter Milan O.
- Start date
On testing the cameras for yourself, dealers may not have them but there's probably a few users around your area that may be willing to do a couple of hours rental on each, or you may be able to go out and shoot with them. I'd try that avenue as it's an important first step, though the Scarlet W may be hard to come by due to shipping numbers.
This is an important point. First and foremost make the decision a commercial one. Will it get an adequate ROI and of course earn you a living? Of course add to that perception of your market. I've seen situations like: a Red Epic Dragon owner was perceived to be able to do the job, well he had a Dragon he wouldn't have that level camera if they couldn't right?! The outcome in that case was not so pretty, but this can work in your favour if you're a capable operator. From what I've seen however, that hasn't really been the case for Scarlet owners. I shoot Dragon all the time, but have never owned one, so there's that. Cameras are cameras and generally I find that they aren't all right for all jobs.
On the Varicam LT:
What I can tell you unequivocally is:
- There's no camera out there that is as clean at ISO5000.
- Panasonic never targeted Red. They never looked at Red. They targeted Alexa and looked at Alexa. (Only mention it in relation to Red as that's what we are talking about here).
- Its not global shutter.
- Its bigger than a Scarlet anything.
What I can tell you based on my own personal experience and preferences:
- The colours this camera reproduces are the best I have seen.
- Global shutter would make this camera better but not to a high degree IMO.
- The Codecs are simple and easy to work with. (just waiting on FCPX and Adobe CC to support the LT versions - coming soon)
- Being able to work in 5000ISO is not a should do, it's a creative tool.
- There's no other camera where I can creatively light a scene in with low wattage fixtures to get large dilated pupils on a character to enhance their state. Well you can but, feel the noise.
- This camera has a unique look.
- This camera suits drama. It was actually made with a big focus on documentary, however with the LT codecs and higher frame rates etc it suits all types of shooting.
- The dynamic range as stated by Panasonic is realistic and IMO is a bit more based solely on what I've been able to use out of it.
- The EF mount is a lockable mount similar to PL, so using things like an EF CNE zoom is a non issue.
This is an important point. First and foremost make the decision a commercial one. Will it get an adequate ROI and of course earn you a living? Of course add to that perception of your market. I've seen situations like: a Red Epic Dragon owner was perceived to be able to do the job, well he had a Dragon he wouldn't have that level camera if they couldn't right?! The outcome in that case was not so pretty, but this can work in your favour if you're a capable operator. From what I've seen however, that hasn't really been the case for Scarlet owners. I shoot Dragon all the time, but have never owned one, so there's that. Cameras are cameras and generally I find that they aren't all right for all jobs.
On the Varicam LT:
What I can tell you unequivocally is:
- There's no camera out there that is as clean at ISO5000.
- Panasonic never targeted Red. They never looked at Red. They targeted Alexa and looked at Alexa. (Only mention it in relation to Red as that's what we are talking about here).
- Its not global shutter.
- Its bigger than a Scarlet anything.
What I can tell you based on my own personal experience and preferences:
- The colours this camera reproduces are the best I have seen.
- Global shutter would make this camera better but not to a high degree IMO.
- The Codecs are simple and easy to work with. (just waiting on FCPX and Adobe CC to support the LT versions - coming soon)
- Being able to work in 5000ISO is not a should do, it's a creative tool.
- There's no other camera where I can creatively light a scene in with low wattage fixtures to get large dilated pupils on a character to enhance their state. Well you can but, feel the noise.
- This camera has a unique look.
- This camera suits drama. It was actually made with a big focus on documentary, however with the LT codecs and higher frame rates etc it suits all types of shooting.
- The dynamic range as stated by Panasonic is realistic and IMO is a bit more based solely on what I've been able to use out of it.
- The EF mount is a lockable mount similar to PL, so using things like an EF CNE zoom is a non issue.
Thank you very much for this input Mr. Evans!
As far as I've seen no one here (in Stockholm) is using the Varicam LT. We have a Facebook-group (Swedish speaking) for large sensor cameras with more than 400 members and not anyone has mentioned owning or using a Varicam 35 or Varicam LT. It's mostly Sony, Canon, Red and occasional Arri owners that are in the group.
Of course I am aware of that I need to be a skilled operator, not only to own it.
So far my clients seem to be happy, and I try to improve all the time. I also understand that not all cameras are good for everything, I'm just trying to figure out what's best for me. The Varicam LT gives me the impression of being an all-round camera and therefore would be a good choice for a camera to own, especially since it handles low light so well. Regarding the global shutter, do you think it's better or worse compared to the Dragon sensor? Also, I've asked this here before: Does the Varicam LT have noisy fans?
All the things you mention are very good, undoubtedly, especially that it suits drama, since I also have plans to write/produce own material.
As far as I've seen no one here (in Stockholm) is using the Varicam LT. We have a Facebook-group (Swedish speaking) for large sensor cameras with more than 400 members and not anyone has mentioned owning or using a Varicam 35 or Varicam LT. It's mostly Sony, Canon, Red and occasional Arri owners that are in the group.
Of course I am aware of that I need to be a skilled operator, not only to own it.
So far my clients seem to be happy, and I try to improve all the time. I also understand that not all cameras are good for everything, I'm just trying to figure out what's best for me. The Varicam LT gives me the impression of being an all-round camera and therefore would be a good choice for a camera to own, especially since it handles low light so well. Regarding the global shutter, do you think it's better or worse compared to the Dragon sensor? Also, I've asked this here before: Does the Varicam LT have noisy fans?
All the things you mention are very good, undoubtedly, especially that it suits drama, since I also have plans to write/produce own material.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
no I don't think that the fs700 is as good - what I'm saying is that those cameras may not be £15000 better.
I tried the red and the f5 and well they are too big and clunky if you operate alone ever
they just demand an infrastructure (head sticks jibs) that is another scale up
and the image may not be tht much better - certainly if you put your money to a couple of hmi instead - or a drone or something
i would so much encourage you to try
do red still have no Nd? Even that can be a huge pain!
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Of course the images may just sing - a five min test sometimes tells you that - and I think there is a chance that that is the case with the vari
red demo at pinewood (as do sony) which is close to airports - I don't know about panny - you could fly over for a day
red demo at pinewood (as do sony) which is close to airports - I don't know about panny - you could fly over for a day
Illya Friedman
Well-known member
Dear Milan,
Every camera has their strengths and weaknesses. I am speaking as a factory authorized dealer for both Panasonic Varicam and Red Scarlet-W. You need to decide which features are most important to you, and work back from there. I will also add that if you can deal with a larger camera body you should also consider the Varicam V35. We have a B-Stock (and I know there are a few others out there for sale in the world) that are hugely discounted.
We have international clients regularly fly to our Hollywood office buy a camera from us, because when they add up the costs it is actually less expensive then buying locally.
You may also want to work with a dealer who can arrange a test for you of these cameras. It something we do on a weekly basis, and ultimately it may make it very easy for you to decide which is the best for you and your needs.
Sincerely,
Every camera has their strengths and weaknesses. I am speaking as a factory authorized dealer for both Panasonic Varicam and Red Scarlet-W. You need to decide which features are most important to you, and work back from there. I will also add that if you can deal with a larger camera body you should also consider the Varicam V35. We have a B-Stock (and I know there are a few others out there for sale in the world) that are hugely discounted.
We have international clients regularly fly to our Hollywood office buy a camera from us, because when they add up the costs it is actually less expensive then buying locally.
You may also want to work with a dealer who can arrange a test for you of these cameras. It something we do on a weekly basis, and ultimately it may make it very easy for you to decide which is the best for you and your needs.
Sincerely,
I see, and I agree. That is a good question, although I'm not only looking at if the image itself is £15000 better. Sometimes I could use two cameras and it's good to have a back-up camera if something goes wrong. Of course I could buy an FS5 instead or another FS700, which would be much less costly, but on the other hand I also would really like to buy something that has a great build quality, isn't as fragile and has a very good internal codec (mostly to reduce set up time). So compared to what another camera would cost, all of a sudden it's not about £15000 anymore, but maybe £10000 or less.
Also, I've had the FS700 for four years now, and even though I'm really careful with my gear (it looks almost as new) I'm always a bit scared that someting might stop working and ruin a shoot (and my reputation). Therefore it would be great to have another camera. Then there's the fact that it's very important for me to be satisfied with what I'm buying and I plan to hang on to my next camera for a while, and in that regard I feel that both the FS5 and FS700 are not really an option. So then I would have to move up a bit more, and then the price difference is less.
I operate alone quite often, I've done several things by myself completely (light, sound, directing even). In that regard the Varicam LT might be really good since the need for lighting (or the amount of it) is reduced.
When it comes to sticks, head and jib, the ones I have should (I hope) be sufficient for a rig that weighs a couple of kilograms. When using the FS700 with accessories (wireless receiver), V-lock plate/battery and O7Q I only use half of the counterweight on my head, and that set-up isn't super light although it's far from high-end set-ups I guess. The sticks can handle more weight than the head and the jib should work for 20 kg, so I hope that will work well enough for a slightly heavier camera that doesn't need some of the accessories.
I've considered a drone before. The problem with this is that in Stockholm they can only be used after 6 p.m. on Fridays until Saturday morning (because of nearby airports) so just to practice I'd have to travel a bit out of town, and to follow the regulations I would also need to have a spotter with me. Also the drone market is a bit over saturated here, compared to the need (it seems) and the ability to use them according to law. Add the fact that it becomes dark here at around 3-4 p.m. during wintertime, and the use of them becomes very limited, at least in the Stockholm area.
I would love to try them out, but it will be very hard for me to do so, and flying to the US is a "long" journey (I flied to Las Vegas once, took me over 20 hours, and I'm not so fond of flying to be honest). To fly to the UK would possibly be an option. I will consider it.
Thank you for this information Mr. Friedman!
I would love to be able to afford a B-Stock V35 but unfortunately can't afford it. It would also require me to buy many more things to make it work in a satisfactory way, since the camera is much heavier. If you have a B-Stock Varicam LT, that would of course be interesting, but I'd also have to take in consideration the cost for duty fees.
Ergonomically the FS7 is massive leaps and bounds ahead of a Sony FS700 with CD 7Q. The Sony FS5 is also heaps better in that regard than the awkward FS700.
Also consider a Sony F5, which is going for rather cheap prices secondhand now. (starting shooting a feature this weekend with an F5! So will be reporting back how I like it vs a FS7 I've done a series with)
A wild card to consider is the Kinefinity Terra 5K / 6K, you get a lot of the RED features/performance but at a tiny fraction of the cost but without the "RED" brand name tag.
If I was cashed up with money itching to spend, I think I'd personally go with either a Varicam LT or Arri Alexa Mini, depending on the situation.
Also consider a Sony F5, which is going for rather cheap prices secondhand now. (starting shooting a feature this weekend with an F5! So will be reporting back how I like it vs a FS7 I've done a series with)
A wild card to consider is the Kinefinity Terra 5K / 6K, you get a lot of the RED features/performance but at a tiny fraction of the cost but without the "RED" brand name tag.
If I was cashed up with money itching to spend, I think I'd personally go with either a Varicam LT or Arri Alexa Mini, depending on the situation.
Yes, ergonomically they are, but that's for my benefit. My clients don't know nor do they care about that. An FS7 could probably get me some TV-jobs, but I'm not so eager doing those. I'm not so fond of Swedish TV-shows.
Yep, I've considered the F5 but I think in the end it would cost me as much or almost as much as the Varicam LT, but with less low light capability and colour and it's always a bit risky buying used equipment. Also, the model is quite old so I'm not sure what the benefit would really be.
The Terra is also on option in theory but the question is how well it performs in reality. I don't know, nor do I know when it will ship, what sort of warranties they have and how long it would take to get eventual issues fixed. I've looked at some of the Kinemax 6K footage and to my opinion it has a too much rolling shutter, although some of the footage is nice in general. https://vimeo.com/129076486
But, as long as there's no in depth comparison done with other cameras and the Terra there's simply too little information to risk that kind of money. They're also not an established manufacturer AFAIK and that can also be a risk.
I'm really not itching to spend, but because of tax laws here it's better for me to spend them this year than to wait a while even if I'm not in a rush myself. If I don't spend the money then almost half will go to taxes instead. Since my camera is old and I guess after four years it's a reasonable time to buy a new, I might as well do it now.
dmitrizigany
Veteran
Well, as someone usually working alone as a one-man-crew with the FS700/7Q+, I'd say that better ergonomics, and better support gear (some fast zoom lenses, more/better lights, proper stands and cases etc etc) would probably be way more beneficial than a step up in camera. If the ergonomics make me work quicker (the 7Q takes a bit of fiddle to set up/attach etc) I would have more time to do the things that really affect the image: getting lights & set right!
Also, I have the A7S, and even though it's low light capabilities have saved me on some occasions (usually on very low paying jobs), I feel low light capabilities are a bit overrated. If you have light sources in the frame they will just explode into blown out blobs of overexposed ugliness. Nice for high frame rates though as you mentioned. Other than it seems low light capabilities mostly lead to laziness in lighting the scene.
PS - hälsa Stockholm, min gamla hemstad!
oron cohen
Member
I've watched the Varicam LT videos and the camera images look amazing! but there two main things to consider:
1) the camera philosophy behind those two cameras is very very different, Panasonic offers a ready to shoot (more or less) camera, but you can't change it much, it's good and solid but it is what it is. Red on the other hand is a completely modular system, the new DSMC2 is much quieter then the old DSMC1 cameras, and you can configure it in many different ways, in it's basic i/o configuration it is a much lighter set up then the Pana, and way smaller, just look at pictures of people holding those cameras, they are tiny! but as I said you could add stuff, simple XLR port are around 200$ from WC or from Tilta and there more and more suff coming out including new colour science.
You can also change the OLPF which makes big difference in colours and base ISO. footage I've seen from the Weapon is clean up to 2000-2500ISO, and you really don't need more then that for fiction.
2) from my experience in feature films and commercials etc, producers know two names: RED and ARRI. I think it will be tricky to sell them a Varicam, although possible for sure. most producers I've worked with can't be bothered, they know that Hollywood films are shot on either ARRI or to lesser extend RED, so this is what they want on set. I'm already imagine myself trying to explain to a producer:
Me: look, this camera is great, it's called Varicam.
Producer: what? which company is that?
Me: panasonic.
Producer: Panasonic??
Me: Yes, it's great, it's better then Arri or RED, I'm telling you. (phone call after a couple of hours)
Producer: Oron, we thought about it, and we got a good rental deal on RED/ARRI, so we go with that this time, but let's test the Varicam maybe one day.
Or something between those line, bottom line, producers and to some extent directors like to play it safe, if you are into feature films you might get away with the LT because the director would like the images, but even then, you would need some explaining and maybe a test day, I know as the same thing happened when the first RED One came out.
So, basically what I'm saying is that don't make it over complicated for yourself in a small market like Sweden. saying something like: I have a RED without even mentioning which one is enough to most producers, there eyes lit up when you tell them on all the Hollywood films being shot on those cameras.
I would still say though, this Varicam has a beautiful, beautiful image, and it's a fantastic camera it seems, you should check really if it will be on demand.
1) the camera philosophy behind those two cameras is very very different, Panasonic offers a ready to shoot (more or less) camera, but you can't change it much, it's good and solid but it is what it is. Red on the other hand is a completely modular system, the new DSMC2 is much quieter then the old DSMC1 cameras, and you can configure it in many different ways, in it's basic i/o configuration it is a much lighter set up then the Pana, and way smaller, just look at pictures of people holding those cameras, they are tiny! but as I said you could add stuff, simple XLR port are around 200$ from WC or from Tilta and there more and more suff coming out including new colour science.
You can also change the OLPF which makes big difference in colours and base ISO. footage I've seen from the Weapon is clean up to 2000-2500ISO, and you really don't need more then that for fiction.
2) from my experience in feature films and commercials etc, producers know two names: RED and ARRI. I think it will be tricky to sell them a Varicam, although possible for sure. most producers I've worked with can't be bothered, they know that Hollywood films are shot on either ARRI or to lesser extend RED, so this is what they want on set. I'm already imagine myself trying to explain to a producer:
Me: look, this camera is great, it's called Varicam.
Producer: what? which company is that?
Me: panasonic.
Producer: Panasonic??
Me: Yes, it's great, it's better then Arri or RED, I'm telling you. (phone call after a couple of hours)
Producer: Oron, we thought about it, and we got a good rental deal on RED/ARRI, so we go with that this time, but let's test the Varicam maybe one day.
Or something between those line, bottom line, producers and to some extent directors like to play it safe, if you are into feature films you might get away with the LT because the director would like the images, but even then, you would need some explaining and maybe a test day, I know as the same thing happened when the first RED One came out.
So, basically what I'm saying is that don't make it over complicated for yourself in a small market like Sweden. saying something like: I have a RED without even mentioning which one is enough to most producers, there eyes lit up when you tell them on all the Hollywood films being shot on those cameras.
I would still say though, this Varicam has a beautiful, beautiful image, and it's a fantastic camera it seems, you should check really if it will be on demand.
dmitrizigany
Veteran
Please report back how you liked it! (Both as foot rest and in regards to image quality and handling compared to the FS700/7Q+)
kohl-sudduth
Well-known member
I want to thank all of you for your input. My plan was to wait until IBC before making a decision but I was offered a Varicam LT demo unit for a good price, which I have ordered now. I'll post some pictures of me using it as a footrest when I get it.
Awesome! Thanks for starting this thread and for all who contributed. Proven very informative.
+1 for reporting back of your impressions. I'm continuing a long, slow, ongoing testing/decision-making process between the Varicam LT, c300 mkii, and sony f5 (with R7 recorder). I value your impressions.
Alex Roz: I found the demo unit because of you, so you have definitely earned several beers. A big thank you to you! :smile:
Dmitri Zigany and Kohl: I'll check if some of the guys here in Stockholm are interested in shooting a comparison. I found a comparison where the 35 was in, with many other cameras, but some of the settings seem to have been weird (or maybe I was just tired). I would like to shoot the same scene on several cameras and make a comparison, also maybe do two or three different type of scenes where eventual rolling shutter issues and such would be more obvious. But, that sort of comparison demands quite a lot of work, so we'll se if someone else is up for it. If not, I'll do some sort of comparison between the FS700, Varicam and maybe throw my BMPCC in, just to have one more camera to relate to.
Dmitri Zigany and Kohl: I'll check if some of the guys here in Stockholm are interested in shooting a comparison. I found a comparison where the 35 was in, with many other cameras, but some of the settings seem to have been weird (or maybe I was just tired). I would like to shoot the same scene on several cameras and make a comparison, also maybe do two or three different type of scenes where eventual rolling shutter issues and such would be more obvious. But, that sort of comparison demands quite a lot of work, so we'll se if someone else is up for it. If not, I'll do some sort of comparison between the FS700, Varicam and maybe throw my BMPCC in, just to have one more camera to relate to.
kohl-sudduth
Well-known member
If you are so inclined, that would be very cool! Much obliged. Wishing you well with the new camera.